This is possibly a very silly question, but I was curious could humans get into worshipping and possibly even getting divine magic/gifts from elf gods? We know the elves have a much more practical relationship with their gods after all, and assuming the elf version of Khaine is just the human worshipped version would imply its totally possible.

Heck, humans are now worshipping Esmerald who is a halfling god and Norscans who are worshipping Old Ones like Lizardmen. The only gods humans possibly couldn't worship or gain something from is the dwarf gods and that is likely due to ancestor aspect to it/actual dwarfs wouldn't approve.

Would it be too crazy to look into elf gods and see if humans can get in on them? I mean, they have a god of magic after all which would likely appeal to most of wizards and such at the very least.

Humans do worship dwarf gods though. They worship Grungni. From warhammer wiki:

Grungni is the one God of Dwarfs most identifiable to men, and the one with the most Human worshippers throughout the Empire[2b], especially amongst artisans, and there is even a Human-built temple to Grungni in Nuln.[2a]

Within the city of Tobaro, Grungni goes by the Tileanised version of his name, il Grungnio, although his strictures and doctrines remain the same. The Dwarf God is worshipped in various parts of the city — and not just by the Tobaran Dwarfs — especially in the tunnels and streets of Trafuro.[3a]

  • 2 Warhammer RPG 2nd Edition: Tome of Salvation.
    • 2a pg. 123
    • 2b pg. 124
  • 3: Warhammer RPG 2nd Edition: The WFRP Companion
    • 3a: pg. 80
 
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This is possibly a very silly question, but I was curious could humans get into worshipping and possibly even getting divine magic/gifts from elf gods? We know the elves have a much more practical relationship with their gods after all, and assuming the elf version of Khaine is just the human worshipped version would imply its totally possible.

Heck, humans are now worshipping Esmerald who is a halfling god and Norscans who are worshipping Old Ones like Lizardmen. The only gods humans possibly couldn't worship or gain something from is the dwarf gods and that is likely due to ancestor aspect to it/actual dwarfs wouldn't approve.

Would it be too crazy to look into elf gods and see if humans can get in on them? I mean, they have a god of magic after all which would likely appeal to most of wizards and such at the very least.

Halflings and Humans have basically lived alongside one another for a long, long time. The Old Ones are somewhat more aloof/eldritch than any other Order deities, being that they have the whole distant time/space God thing who also ended up shifting the entire planet around and reshaping it wholly, along with pretty much creating all the living the bipeds within it.

The Elven Gods, on the other hand, are wholly and notably attached to, based around, the elves. They are the Gods of the Elves, and the Elves specifically, so it's incredibly unlikely that the elves would be, like, super into humans trying to do that. Nor would you find elves willing to indoctrinate humans. Unlike with a certain Slann, the elves do not believe in preaching the superiority of their pantheon to the rest of the world, so that all may be granted salvation from such Gods. They have no desire to. Their Gods...are their Gods, meant for them, and vice versa.

Ulha'up can make a reasonable case that the Old Ones reshaped the entire world, created the races that live within it, and were unjustly forced out by the Ruinous Powers.

The Elves' case is that their Gods are for them, and that's...about where it stops.

It might not stop the humans from trying, but it's likely the elves would just sneer at it and not even slightly approve. Humans even try to worship Grungni, you know, but there ain't no equivalent divine casting priests of Grungni around in the manner that humans might be used to. He, along with all the other Ancestor Gods, are way more, mmm, metaphysically solid than to be affected by such things. Esmeralda has been ephemerally known for a long time as the halflings talk about her - the halflings are always piping up about them being equal/equal treatment/etc. and are not shy about talking up their Gods whenever the Talls are getting a bit too loud about their own Gods, and dedicated worship of Esmeralda formed the tipping point. She's still incredibly nascent, but the Warp deadening of the halfllings mean that without said human worship, she would very likely have never catalyzed as she has in-quest. She is by far the weakest of the 'accepted' cross-provincial Gods of the Empire at this point, but that could possibly change over time. It's a lot easier for everyone with a kitchen, a cook pot, or even a stick over a fire to pray to her than to do complex ritualistic proceedings in the deep woods like with Taal and Rhya, or so on. People might pray to Sigmar or Ulric or so on before every battle, but actual battles might not, in fact, happen every day. But a whole lot more citizens are going to hopefully eat at least once a day. Likely more times than that.

Contrast to the Elven Gods, who would probably deliberately ignore any human pleas, because they aren't their responsibility. Besides, humanity already aped Mathlann with Manann, and things like in Tilea (you know, where all those elven ruins were that the humans settled into) Taal and Rhya are instead known as Kharnos and Ishe.

So it's this whole game of 'well my God is real and distinct and definitely not yours' and 'your God is just a copy that you've solidified enough with thousands of years of worship/sacrifice/prayers/etc.' and so on.
 
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This is possibly a very silly question, but I was curious could humans get into worshipping and possibly even getting divine magic/gifts from elf gods? We know the elves have a much more practical relationship with their gods after all, and assuming the elf version of Khaine is just the human worshipped version would imply its totally possible.

Heck, humans are now worshipping Esmerald who is a halfling god and Norscans who are worshipping Old Ones like Lizardmen. The only gods humans possibly couldn't worship or gain something from is the dwarf gods and that is likely due to ancestor aspect to it/actual dwarfs wouldn't approve.

Would it be too crazy to look into elf gods and see if humans can get in on them? I mean, they have a god of magic after all which would likely appeal to most of wizards and such at the very least.
I'm pretty sure its mentioned somewhere in here that human and elves worship in radically different ways, IIRC one of the examples being how Khaine is seen by human and High Elf followers, which makes a direct one to one swap of humans to elves to be highly unlikely. If some orphanage matron in Reikland prayed to Isha, it'd be in a human way and any potential divine buffs would be in a human-familiar way. Much like how The Lady of Bretonnia is technically connected to the elven pantheon due to the kingdom's own elvish influence, but has basically zilch in common. But I could be misremembering.
EDIT: Never mind, QM has spoken.
 
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I'm pretty sure its mentioned somewhere in here that human and elves worship in radically different ways, IIRC one of the examples being how Khaine is seen by human and High Elf followers, which makes a direct one to one swap of humans to elves to be highly unlikely. If some orphanage matron in Reikland prayed to Isha, it'd be in a human way and any potential divine buffs would be in a human-familiar way. Much like how The Lady of Bretonnia is technically connected to the elven pantheon due to the kingdom's own elvish influence, but has basically zilch in common. But I could be misremembering.
EDIT: Never mind, QM has spoken.

The lady of the lake was an anomaly. According to End Times she got the humans to worship her initially so they would serve as a buffer nation to protect the wood elves but she eventually grew to like the humans better hence why she was so willing to intercede.

Actually now that I mentioned it we should definitely see about building a human temple to Grungni.
 
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The lady of the lake was an anomaly. According to End Times she got the humans to worship her initially so they would serve as a buffer nation to protect the wood elves but she eventually grew to like the humans better hence why she was so willing to intercede.

Actually now that I mentioned it we should definitely see about building a human temple to Grungni.
the End times: such a good source of universally accepted and in no way moronic or contradictory Lore.
 
The lady of the lake was an anomaly. According to End Times she got the humans to worship her initially so they would serve as a buffer nation to protect the wood elves but she eventually grew to like the humans better hence why she was so willing to intercede.

Actually now that I mentioned it we should definitely see about building a human temple to Grungni.
err Dwarfs don't worship their 'gods' they venerate and honor them, I think it is because it is so foreign to their culture that the primary body of dwarfs aren't as susceptible to chaos. Strictly speaking their closer to ancestor spirits in my mind and more symbols to aspire to for dwarfs; they also don't have priests.
 
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Here's two excerpts from Tome of Salvation:

1. Men would never profess to understand the faith of the Elves, most believing either the Elves do not believe in Gods, or those that they do worship are but different aspects of the Human pantheon. Of course Elves believe the reverse, claiming all Human Gods are merely a distorted reflection of the Elven pantheon. The truth, in all likelihood, is probably somewhere in between. Due to this lack of understanding, there are very few Humans who worship the Gods of the Elves—the culture of the Elves is too alien to grasp, their faith too oblique and impenetrable. Elves living within the Empire continue to worship their Gods in the same manner they would anywhere, for they have no formalised religions, and conduct all worship on a personal and intimate level.

2. The Human rites and practises involving Khaine are crude and barbaric, and are in many ways an abomination of the God's complex spheres of influence. To the Elves, Khaine is indeed the God of Murder, but he is also the God of War. As such, he plays an important part in their myth cycle and culture, having battled against Slaanesh and helped Aenarion drive back the hordes of Chaos. Before High Elf soldiers march to war, they are sure to whisper an invocation to the Bloody-Handed God to guide their swords and spears. There are similarities, though, between the brutish practises of men who follow Khaine and the abhorrent Dark Elves of distant Naggaroth. These exiled Elves certainly frown at the primitive and clumsy manner in which their chosen God is venerated in the Old World, but their own are merely those same acts of murder, perfected. Their rituals are spectacularly bloody, involving living sacrifices. To the Dark Elves, murder, pain, and death are virtues to be extolled, key components in what makes their society what it is, perfected as an art form and a way of life.

Khaine is the Human God of Murder. His tenets are as follows:

  • All death is sacred, but only murder is sacred to Khaine.
  • Murder is an act of devotion—do not rush it.
  • Murder is its own reward.
  • Do not let an opportunity to kill pass you by. Each such moment is a blessing given by Khaine.
  • Murder by the hand of another is good, murder by your own hand is better.
  • Do not betray the cult, even in death.
  • Do not conceal the work of Khaine, even if it leads to your discovery.

This is incredibly restrictive compared to the complex relationship that the elves, Asur/Druchii/Asrai/Eonir might have with him. The Asur still pray to Khaine, for instance, when they know they must do dark deeds for the greater good, and for big war stuff too, not just Asuryan.

At the end of the day, there are obviously major similarities. But there are also notable differences. Is the Human God Khaine the same as the Elven God Khaela Mensha Khaine? Yes, and no. It's a complex situation. But amongst all the elven Gods, Khaine is the most likely to accept non-elven worship, so long as more murder and destruction and war is done, whereas none of the other Elven Gods would ever have such proclivities. Even the Cytharai are rather mono-focused on doing stuff to/with the elves in their various incarnations.

Khaine is in this unique position of...boy howdy just does he love murder. And death. And killing.

Isha, by contrast, is the Mother of the Elves. As in she is known as Isha the Mother. Not Isha The Mother Of All That Lives, though. So keep that in mind. She weeps for every lost elven soul. She is vengeful against those who harm her children - the elves.

But Khaine is wacky woohoo for war and murder and death, and there are human cultists of Khaine who managed to finagle out an incredibly narrowed and specific interpretation of him, to the point of them sharing a name...but not sharing a name. Khaine's bloodlust, I'd say, enables him to willingly stretch himself a bit more than pretty much any of the other Elven Gods would be willing to do, if in fact that is what he has done.

I don't personally hold to the 'canon' of Fantasy! Slaanesh suddenly having the same relationship with the Elves as 40k! Slaanesh in terms of the same extent as going all She Who Thirsts and stuff, but there are other ways to use the Underworld and its various Gods in the Elven Pantheon, who, also, would not give two shits if a human tried praying to them. Because at the end of the day, their purview would be elven souls. Like, I can get Slaanesh having an appreciation for elven stuff, because they feel their emotions so intensely and for so long, though, so don't get it twisted. Uh. Not sure where I was going with this...

Right. Gods. Differences are possible, as are similarities, but linkages maybe not sometimes, depending on things. Asuryan, Kurnous, etc. are incredibly unlikely to listen to anything a human worshipper says. The Old Ones just care about Order, sticking it to Chaos, a Plan, etc. Esmeralda is already the most popular and known, not too big a stretch. Dwarfs roll their eyes at humans trying to do the same thing with the Ancestor Gods as they do with their regular ones, while the AGs probably just shrug about it, if they even notice/care at all in their own weirdness. Humans can try to worship the Elven Gods. But they just...won't get anything out of it, in the end. They still might do it out of some misplaced sense of revelation/desperation/superiority/take your pick, but that doesn't mean it'll necessarily work.

You see what I mean?
 
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err Dwarfs don't worship their 'gods' they venerate and honor them, I think it is because it is so foreign to their culture that the primary body of dwarfs aren't as susceptible to chaos. Strictly speaking their closer to ancestor spirits in my mind and more symbols to aspire to for dwarfs; they also don't have priests.

Yeah the wiki seems to match what your saying:

Dwarfs, of course, have their own perspective on the matter of religion. As they cannot work magic of any kind, excepting their mastery of runes of course, Dwarfs do not become priests in the conventional sense. Certainly, there are plenty of Dwarfs, called Lorekeepers, who bless the babies, recount the tales of their ancestors, and advise their leaders in times of war, but the very idea that Dwarfs can channel the power of the Gods directly is utter nonsense (despite heretical claims to the contrary). It is important to remember that the Dwarfs view their ancestors as divine entities. They receive insight from the deeds and actions of those who came before, which is why it is so vital to Dwarfs to record the heroic acts that bring them glory and the treacherous betrayals that lay them low, for it is in these events that the divine speaks.[2b]Dwarfs also have less of a need for a priesthood because they view their Ancestor Gods as deities to be emulated, rather than to be appeased.[4a]

  • 2: Warhammer Fantasy RPG 2nd ED -- Tome of Salvation
    • 2a: pg. 175
    • 2b: pg. 127
  • 4: Warhammer Fantasy RPG 4th ED -- Core Rulebook
    • 4a: pg. 215
 
Does Old one God able to grant blessings? I mean sotak is only a newborn God and other gods left the world. What is the difference between them and normal gods? I thought different lizard man miracles done by invoking artifacts or geomantic manipulations not by divine blessings.
 
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Does Old one God able to grant blessings? I mean sotak is only a newborn God and other gods left the world. What is the difference between them and normal gods? I thought different lizard man miracles done by invoking artifacts or geomantic manipulations not by divine blessings.

Yeah they can. Lizard Man priests could invoke the old ones for spells in canon and the Norscan worshippers of the Old Ones in this quest showed they could use the same blessings too.
 
Okay. If we assume Lileath is the Lady of the Lake in this quest-verse, then based on Torroar's explanations we can say it is only possible because she went out of her way to be so.
Though given the sheer differences in her portfolios it raises the question of whether she's splitting her attention like Isha is, or if she split a part of herself off somehow.
 
Why would we assume this? End times a shit.
I thought End Times was shit because it basically went "Hey! Here are all the secrets (of the Old Word) revealed. Pretty cool, huh? Well, none of it matters because all the plans come to not and everyone fails and dies."

*edit* so the reveals weren't the problem. It was their ultimate pointlessness. Like why bother the WHF version of Avalon in Haven only to destroy it?
 
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That's the boon they got for their price. They can't live or fight any other way. But they can make that way kick everybody else's ass.
Not exactly. There are loopholes even when the official body doesn't adapt.

Example.
Repanse.
Throwing weapons.
Blessed grail peasants.
Foreign titles of nobility and knighthoods.
"Shepherds"(aka mercenaries)

Bretonians don't have to be boring,limited or static.
Just willing to engage in doublespeak and innuendo.

And while they may not use gunpowder or crossbows. The peasantry or Dawi don't fall under those limitations. Even if the former requires more than a little plausible deniability.

(At least according to Knight's Quest.)
 
I feel like if a human was being stupid and pressing a Dwarven Priest about divine magic the Dawi in question might very well show that stupid human how Gazul empowers his ability to cast fist.
 
I feel like if a human was being stupid and pressing a Dwarven Priest about divine magic the Dawi in question might very well show that stupid human how Gazul empowers his ability to cast fist.

It would not be Gazul humans are drawn to, they already have a perfectly good death god. It's the craft gods that likely have a human following.

Think about it when the dwarfs helped turn the tribes Sigmar united into the Empire there must have been a veritable swarm of dwarf craftsmen, teachign humans all sorts of things from forging and crafting metal to masonry and stonework, to engineering and architecture. The humans who learned all these things would ask: 'Which god has taught you these secrets?'

The dwarfs would honestly answer things like 'Morgrim is the Ancestor God of Engineers' and so the human would have a focus for one more small prayer, it would not cost him much and he would not expect miracles, it would just be one more thread in the complex weave of that one man's belief.
 
I thought End Times was shit because it basically went "Hey! Here are all the secrets (of the Old Word) revealed. Pretty cool, huh? Well, none of it matters because all the plans come to not and everyone fails and dies."

*edit* so the reveals weren't the problem. It was their ultimate pointlessness. Like why bother the WHF version of Avalon in Haven only to destroy it?
There are any number of reasons why End Times was shit. End Times was a shit fractal. Each individually dumb part was equally stupid as the thing as a whole. Even things that on the face of it could be interesting were just lead ins to something stupid, thus making that interesting thing dumb.
 
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There are any number of reasons why End Times was shit. End Times was a shit fractal. Each individually dumb part was equally stupid as the thing as a whole. Even things that on the face of it could be interesting were just lead ins to something stupid, thus making that interesting thing dumb.

Eh, that's too much. End times was bad, but it did give us the Settra Does Not Serve meme, which is, needless to say, the greatest Warhammer meme of all time.

Just like Settra.
 
I wonder what it would take to raise up what is a relatively minor god to something that is approaching a peer to other main gods of the Old World in general. Like, Guvaur is pretty universally called upon by all Ostlanders after all in general when living life.

I mean, it was relatively easy to do for Esmeralda based on what GM already said about not conflicting with any major gods and being easy to invoke when cooking in general. Plenty of other minor gods that could be worth raising up like the halfling god Gaffey of building which could make a nice craftsmen god for Empire in general, that or Nordland's version.

I guess when you live next to the dwarfs for thousands of years and who teach you most of the important crafting stuff it doesn't inspire a crafting god of some kind. The closest I can think of is Verena since she has science in general in her domain which can include works of great crafting.
 
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