Warhammer Fantasy: A Dynasty of Dynamic Alcoholism

[Raichu1972]

Well at least you're honest with about your argument being about fear.

Fear of the enemy who you have not even argued an appeasement is possible for (even though we have done it multiple times and have even resisted bad faith actions on top of that).

Fear of the world turning worse (even though it has tried to do so multiple times and will try again and we have so far resisted such efforts with planning and luck).

Fear of an ally's unyielding nature even though Naraiel herself has spoken about how she is willing to yield to an argument if it holds true even for a human generation in the last two update. Even though she has intoxicated herself to be able to bend enough to try something that has been tried before because the people are new.

Fear of people turning worse next generation even though we have worked a lot of effort into making sure people are better than in the original timeline. Also the belief of inter-Empire diplomacy being a waste of time to a Wood Elf even though we have been told in the last two updates that Naraiel and her father saw it as an investment in time to save themselves the time and effort of two human generation in exchange for months of diplomatic meetings.

Fear of a bad political situation forcing realpolitik on us and as such curtailing our own ability to affect good actions. Even though historically at the peak of realpolitik stupidity people still got good things done.

Then on top of that you only use generalities like exceptional people in this setting (or for that matter in the real world) can't exists. Even though history remembers so many exceptional people that went beyond the norm to change the world for better/worse. Like doing enough good doesn't inspire at least some other people to try and do good. And some of them even succeed.

Then there is the implied logic in your argument of us doing nothing to mitigate the bad events and not being responsible stewards of our power even though players have been trying to mitigate bad events and responsibly steward our power since the start of the quest. We even succeed most of the time and go after the failures until they are at the very least mitigated.



Even after all the shit Naraiel has gotten from the Empire she is still willing to try Diplomacy even though her bar to get to that point qualifies as a skyscraper. This is an evolving situation and just going fuck it expect the worst so do the worst to our enemies before they do it to us is a bad idea.

Now does your argument(s) have something more to them than the logic of fearmongering?

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Something I feel like may have been lost in this argument somewhere is that we have tried to improve things, but we've really only been working on a local/regional level.

Is Kislev better than it was in canon? Debatable, but it's certainly stronger.
Is the Northern Empire better than it was in canon? Absolutely, since we are bringing up from being the backwater of the Empire into a peer worth true consideration.

Is the Empire as a whole better off than in canon? I would say so, but that's because of Big Magnus just as much as anything else. And even then, most of the Empire's gains have been material more than anything else. The same foolhardy stubbornness that led to armies trying to conquer Laurelorn still exists, and we haven't done much at all to really impact that.

While Magnus absolutely would see value in allying with Laurelorn and keeping cordial relations, most people aren't Magnus. Most people aren't Freddy, or Stephan, or Ortrud, who will help people who are different from them instead of fearing and hating them. This applies especially for the Emperor, who in most situations is purposefully weak in power and will in order for the Electors to have free reign to do whatever they wish. I wouldn't trust the Emperor to keep even a non-aggression pact intact because of that alone.

 

[Dmol8]

Something I feel like may have been lost in this argument somewhere is that we have tried to improve things, but we've really only been working on a local/regional level.

Is Kislev better than it was in canon? Debatable, but it's certainly stronger.
Is the Northern Empire better than it was in canon? Absolutely, since we are bringing up from being the backwater of the Empire into a peer worth true consideration.

Is the Empire as a whole better off than in canon? I would say so, but that's because of Big Magnus just as much as anything else. And even then, most of the Empire's gains have been material more than anything else. The same foolhardy stubbornness that led to armies trying to conquer Laurelorn still exists, and we haven't done much at all to really impact that.

While Magnus absolutely would see value in allying with Laurelorn and keeping cordial relations, most people aren't Magnus. Most people aren't Freddy, or Stephan, or Ortrud, who will help people who are different from them instead of fearing and hating them. This applies especially for the Emperor, who in most situations is purposefully weak in power and will in order for the Electors to have free reign to do whatever they wish. I wouldn't trust the Emperor to keep even a non-aggression pact intact because of that alone.

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Kind of forgot about Stirland and Sylvania being a full part of it again. That is an improvement. As for the weak Emperor problem? I have a plan for the next Elector's Meet to try and mitigate at least some of that.

 

[NCRTrooper]

Is Kislev better than it was in canon? Debatable, but it's certainly stronger.

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Not really sure how it's debatable that Kislev is better off than it was in canon. Kislev now has a pantheon that's worth a damn, has rebuilt way ahead of schedule, and has a strong, centralized, modernized military. Kattarin may be a brutal despot, but she is undeniably very effective at what she does.

 

[Raichu1972]

Not really sure how it's debatable that Kislev is better off than it was in canon. Kislev now has a pantheon that's worth a damn, has rebuilt way ahead of schedule, and has a strong, centralized, modernized military. Kattarin may be a brutal despot, but she is undeniably very effective at what she does.

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I suppose I should have clarified.

When I said "better", I meant "is a happier place to live in" or something similar.

Kislev is absolutely much more powerful in a much shorter amount of time.

Kislev also has a pretty large and brutally treated population of slaves, a secret police enforcing religious purity and silencing dissent towards the Tzarina, and so on in order to enforce social control among the populace.

I'm not quite familiar with Canon Kislev beyond the fact that Kattarin was a vampire (I think?) but I also can't confidently say that Kislev has moved to become "better" like I could say of Ostland.

 

[SaltyWaffles]

I mean, yeah. Naraiel was born in -1,024 IC, a century after Laurelorn was introduced to the Pact by Ariel. She's intensely aware of how fractious the Empire historically is, both before and after its founding. She has watched its squabbles, its civil wars over material goods, insults, and various religions, for a long, long time, and has keenly felt the unpleasant results of when its rulers and people decide to take what firmly is not theirs so many times over. She is, explicitly, untrusting of the position of Emperor and any of those who hold it to somehow enforce the rest of the Empire to listen to them in the long-term, because she knows that the Empire doesn't work like that for the vast majority of the time, because each province is essentially its own High Realm equivalent. She'll make a deal with who she knows, and has known, for some three decades now because she's aware enough that that is a not inconsiderable span of human lifetime spent on the effort, and even then she's forcing herself to examine her own biases and is fighting against them.

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I think the heart of the problem is a lack of engagement with the Empire. Of course making an agreement with a single generation of rulers and disappearing for centuries results in that agreement getting forgotten or disregarded--out of sight, out of mind. But if Laurelorn were to have an embassy in Altdorf, with regular meetings (well, once every five years or so, perhaps) with the Emperor and meetings with its nearby/neighboring province Elector Counts, then it'd enjoy much more reliable relations with the Empire. Take a page out of Ulthuan--invite leaders to visit Laurelorn to give them a subtle display of just how powerful they are (and that they're far better off as allies rather than enemies), or hold an occasional display of skill with a unit of their ridiculously good archers. Maintain a cooperative or at least friendly relationship with the Imperial Colleges of Magic, so that'd be one major ally in the Empire that would consistently be on your side whenever an Elector Count gets the idea that they can fuck with Laurelorn.

 

[mmgaballah]

Kislev also has a pretty large and brutally treated population of slaves, a secret police enforcing religious purity and silencing dissent towards the Tzarina, and so on in order to enforce social control among the populace.

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considering how close the chaos wastes are to there borders and how much closer that nation is the the chaos gates up north the secret police thing is justifiable , as for the slaves well that is likely going to be phased out as time passes since they can no longer replenish them with people from the empire and considering how far Kislave is from the major slave trading hubs like araby the only other source of possible new slaves left would be the norsicans and the kurgen whom no one be stupid enough to enslave since they are chaos corrupted and there for a massive risk even if there in chains to allow into your nation to build your infrastructure

 

[NCRTrooper]

I suppose I should have clarified.

When I said "better", I meant "is a happier place to live in" or something similar.

Kislev is absolutely much more powerful in a much shorter amount of time.

Kislev also has a pretty large and brutally treated population of slaves, a secret police enforcing religious purity and silencing dissent towards the Tzarina, and so on in order to enforce social control among the populace.

I'm not quite familiar with Canon Kislev beyond the fact that Kattarin was a vampire (I think?) but I also can't confidently say that Kislev has moved to become "better" like I could say of Ostland.

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Kislev got absolutely boned in the Great War Against Chaos, to the point that in canon, it wouldn't truly start recovering until the reign of Boris Bohka in the 2400s. The fact that Kislev has been mostly rebuilt at this point would mean that the lives of the people have meaningfully improved compared to canon, and the fact that Kislev's military has improved so much means that people's homes are less likely to be razed by marauding Kurgans, so that's an improvement too.

Going by quest canon at least, Kislev had a large slave industry before Kattarin, and it will probably have one after Kattarin, so abolition was never really in the cards. The Chekist were already a thing in canon, and I don't see what makes the Chekist much worse than the Witch Hunters, for example. Considering the fact that Kislev is so close to the Chaos Wastes, an organization like the Chekist were probably necessary anyhow.

 

[PurposefulZephyr]

I think the heart of the problem is a lack of engagement with the Empire. Of course making an agreement with a single generation of rulers and disappearing for centuries results in that agreement getting forgotten or disregarded--out of sight, out of mind. But if Laurelorn were to have an embassy in Altdorf, with regular meetings (well, once every five years or so, perhaps) with the Emperor and meetings with its nearby/neighboring province Elector Counts, then it'd enjoy much more reliable relations with the Empire. Take a page out of Ulthuan--invite leaders to visit Laurelorn to give them a subtle display of just how powerful they are (and that they're far better off as allies rather than enemies), or hold an occasional display of skill with a unit of their ridiculously good archers. Maintain a cooperative or at least friendly relationship with the Imperial Colleges of Magic, so that'd be one major ally in the Empire that would consistently be on your side whenever an Elector Count gets the idea that they can fuck with Laurelorn.

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While I think that's a great idea, consider that the current height of foresight, humbleness and (un)common sense is a glorified "let's leave each other be".

Going from that to outgoing, cooperative diplomacy is... theoretically possible, but certainly not going to happen right now. In fact, unless Freddy repeats the sheer impact of his 'diplomatic meetings', this kind of cooperation won't happen in his lifetime.

 

[065tdsa]

I think the heart of the problem is a lack of engagement with the Empire. Of course making an agreement with a single generation of rulers and disappearing for centuries results in that agreement getting forgotten or disregarded--out of sight, out of mind. But if Laurelorn were to have an embassy in Altdorf, with regular meetings (well, once every five years or so, perhaps) with the Emperor and meetings with its nearby/neighboring province Elector Counts, then it'd enjoy much more reliable relations with the Empire. Take a page out of Ulthuan--invite leaders to visit Laurelorn to give them a subtle display of just how powerful they are (and that they're far better off as allies rather than enemies), or hold an occasional display of skill with a unit of their ridiculously good archers. Maintain a cooperative or at least friendly relationship with the Imperial Colleges of Magic, so that'd be one major ally in the Empire that would consistently be on your side whenever an Elector Count gets the idea that they can fuck with Laurelorn.

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Problem is Naraiel isn't ready for that. And her willingness to engage with us is exceptional among her people. What you're saying makes perfect sense but getting around to the implementation of these ideas will take several human lifetimes of slowly convincing Asrai to come out of their forest for a bit.

 

[Zaealix]

Hrrrm...
Do I think the Empire is better off here as opposed to canon?...Iffy
Torrar has said that the Empire hasn't been able to lay as much infrastructure down as a price paid for all it's victories spear-headed by Frederick. On the flipside, the closer ties with Kislev and a Kislev that is NOT ruled by a Vampire changes the ball-park significantly.
I think, given time it's possible Kislev pays back the Empire for it's investment (warding off Chaos so the Empire doesn't need to do it, Occasional curious/exiled Ice Witch heading down south to do good, etc, etc.) but the nasty flipside of course is that we now have two powerful polities next to each other who may not remain friendly-in fact, beyond the whole 'squabbly humans' dealie, there's Skaven under the Empire and Chaos Gods who are going to reach out to whomever they can to disrupt the two nations/ set them at odds with each other/ create divisions and sore points until they can use the one to beat the other down and finish both off.

 

[MonkeyTypewriter]

I suppose I should have clarified.

When I said "better", I meant "is a happier place to live in" or something similar.

Kislev is absolutely much more powerful in a much shorter amount of time.

Kislev also has a pretty large and brutally treated population of slaves, a secret police enforcing religious purity and silencing dissent towards the Tzarina, and so on in order to enforce social control among the populace.

I'm not quite familiar with Canon Kislev beyond the fact that Kattarin was a vampire (I think?) but I also can't confidently say that Kislev has moved to become "better" like I could say of Ostland.

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Keep in mind that if you're comparing Kislev to canon its not "hard men making hard decisions" Kattarin vs "nebulous niceness." Its "hard men making hard decisions" Kattarin vs "completely insane vampire" Kattarin. Its comparing Fidel Castro to Pol Pot.

 

[Jack_Trade]

considering how close the chaos wastes are to there borders and how much closer that nation is the the chaos gates up north the secret police thing is justifiable ,

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Plus the Witch Hunters and equivalent groups are pretty much the Empires version of secret police, so it's not like we can through stones.

 

[TheDuke]

I think the heart of the problem is a lack of engagement with the Empire. Of course making an agreement with a single generation of rulers and disappearing for centuries results in that agreement getting forgotten or disregarded--out of sight, out of mind. But if Laurelorn were to have an embassy in Altdorf, with regular meetings (well, once every five years or so, perhaps) with the Emperor and meetings with its nearby/neighboring province Elector Counts, then it'd enjoy much more reliable relations with the Empire. Take a page out of Ulthuan--invite leaders to visit Laurelorn to give them a subtle display of just how powerful they are (and that they're far better off as allies rather than enemies), or hold an occasional display of skill with a unit of their ridiculously good archers. Maintain a cooperative or at least friendly relationship with the Imperial Colleges of Magic, so that'd be one major ally in the Empire that would consistently be on your side whenever an Elector Count gets the idea that they can fuck with Laurelorn.

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This is probably the general way to go about it, though I don't think a Wood Elf embassy would be something that ANY Asrai would be interested in or willing to man, period. At the end of the day, a treaty on a piece of paper means nothing if you don't know and respect those on the other side of it. Things work with the Dwarfs because the Dwarfs actually bother to engage with the humans, passing through their lands, settling down in them, letting their crafts be distributed among mankind, fighting alongside them, and making sweet, sweet alcohol. Humanity, by and large, KNOWS the Dwarfs. They (mostly) understand and respect them because of that.

But the Wood Elves are basically a complete enigma. Ask any normal human off the street and they'd probably tell you they sneak in from the woods to abduct and eat babies, or that they make love to trees, or whatever. Without some kind of consistent, regular interaction the stigmas around them are just going to strengthen, treaties or no, and eventually some Elector Count's going to decide that he knows better then his ancestors, think that the treaties are stupid and elves are evil, despite never having met one, and goes out to chop down the wrong trees.

On that note, eh, not too sure what would be the best methods to allow for regular interaction. Some sort of joint military effort would probably be good, of course (Maybe see if some could assist the Drakwald patrol as auxiliaries? I'm sure that some of the best trackers and survivalists on Mallus would help their efforts a lot), but I doubt the Asrai would be interested in creating an embassy or anything like that, at least of the traditional variety. Maybe give them a manor suited to their preferences that's maintained in their absence and they send a delegation to the Elector's Meet? Though that still doesn't really feel like enough. Hmmm...

 

[Jedij4]

Current top priority: We need some sort of magic fire ring so we can once again snuggle our waifu-cicle.

I would immensely enjoy us going to the colleges for something so flippant. We pioneered hiring wizards for important purposes, now we can introduce using magic for frivolous reasons!!!

Perhaps it could be passed down to future generations as a foot warmer. The steel bulls tremendously toasty toesies.

 

[Mopman43]

Current top priority: We need some sort of magic fire ring so we can once again snuggle our waifu-cicle.

I would immensely enjoy us going to the colleges for something so flippant. We pioneered using magic for important purposes, now we can introduce using magic for frivolous reasons!!!

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I mean, I think an enchanted item to become immune to the cold is much more in the Ice Witch's bailiwick.

 

[GhostKing 666]

I suppose I should have clarified.

When I said "better", I meant "is a happier place to live in" or something similar.

Kislev is absolutely much more powerful in a much shorter amount of time.

Kislev also has a pretty large and brutally treated population of slaves, a secret police enforcing religious purity and silencing dissent towards the Tzarina, and so on in order to enforce social control among the populace.

I'm not quite familiar with Canon Kislev beyond the fact that Kattarin was a vampire (I think?) but I also can't confidently say that Kislev has moved to become "better" like I could say of Ostland.

Click to shrink...

Kislev was a rotting shithole after the Great War against Chaos. It wasn't until Vladimir Bohka became Tzar(and then is son Boris in 2492) that it actually got someone competent and dedicated to fixing the damages Asavar Kul did to Kislev back in 2302. Before(and really after because you don't fix over a century of misrule and massive war damage overnight) Boris, poverty in Kislev was rampant, the military was in shambles(and outdated), Kislev's native gods were withering away, Boyars whose power surpassed the Tzar's ability to bring to heel, Praag and even the Tzar's own palace hadn't been rebuilt.

Vladimir actually was first in his line to actually take up arms and ensure the safety of his people by doing a systematic campaign of purgings throughout the lands of Troll Country, the Northern Oblast, and the eastern woodlands of Kislev before dying against Goblins. And his son Boris continued his work of fixing the country, almost emptying the treasury to do so, hiring mercenaries to retrain Kislev's army, rebuilding bridges, roads, and towns and importing black powder and engineers from the Empire to help modernize Kislev.

The only thing Kattarin has done, is rebuild Kislev faster, modernize and revitalize Kislev's own gods sooner, and bring the Boyars power to check in a way that otl Tzars and Tzarinas would have just loved to be able to do. And if your complaints are about slaves and secret police, hate to break it to you but those things are otl for Kislev.

 

[Qeqre]

considering how close the chaos wastes are to there borders and how much closer that nation is the the chaos gates up north the secret police thing is justifiable , as for the slaves well that is likely going to be phased out as time passes since they can no longer replenish them with people from the empire and considering how far Kislave is from the major slave trading hubs like araby the only other source of possible new slaves left would be the norsicans and the kurgen whom no one be stupid enough to enslave since they are chaos corrupted and there for a massive risk even if there in chains to allow into your nation to build your infrastructure

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Kislevite Mutants in OTL tend to get kidnapped by the Hags for slave labour, because Hags have the sight to scope out Chaos-tainted indviduals and the Lore of Hags has spells for suppressing(but not removing) mutation(using bear's urine) and increasing one's resistance to Chaos(using Owl Gizzards).
Those who don't die fast enough are fed an excuse about being able to purify their soul if they die fighting a servant of Chaos in the name of Kislev and sent North(which means they become somebody else's problem and might take out a Chaos Warrior before they die or lose their sanity).

I mean, I think an enchanted item to become immune to the cold is much more in the Ice Witch's bailiwick.

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Immunity to non-magical cold is also one of Ulric's blessings.

 

[Mopman43]

Immunity to non-magical cold is also one of Ulric's blessings.

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This seems pretty magical.

 

[Qeqre]

This seems pretty magical.

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Got my Ice Witch and Ulrican Marks mixed up:

Unfeeling: You suffer no damage from non-magical cold.

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Ulric's Servant: Touched by Ulric, you no longer suffer the harmful effects of cold—except when it's triggered by a Wrath of God.

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That said, if Natasha's body remaining cold via magic meant that any cold resulting from proximity to this cold thing is magical cold, that would have implications for our Ghyran-stuffed produce.
One would hope that this isn't the case.

 

[PseudoLurker]

Current top priority: We need some sort of magic fire ring so we can once again snuggle our waifu-cicle.

I would immensely enjoy us going to the colleges for something so flippant. We pioneered hiring wizards for important purposes, now we can introduce using magic for frivolous reasons!!!

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Just saw this and got out of bed to respond(never log in on phone).

Being unable to hug a loved one is most certainly not a "frivolous reason" for magic. IRL I'd go to great lengths for it. Hugs are life.

 

[Vodkasheep]

Current top priority: We need some sort of magic fire ring so we can once again snuggle our waifu-cicle.

I would immensely enjoy us going to the colleges for something so flippant. We pioneered hiring wizards for important purposes, now we can introduce using magic for frivolous reasons!!!

Perhaps it could be passed down to future generations as a foot warmer. The steel bulls tremendously toasty toesies.

Click to shrink...

He already has an item that lets him snuggle with her it's called being the Steel 'motherfucking' bull and having the light of summer. Pun intended.

 

[NCRTrooper]

Hrrrm...
Do I think the Empire is better off here as opposed to canon?...Iffy
Torrar has said that the Empire hasn't been able to lay as much infrastructure down as a price paid for all it's victories spear-headed by Frederick. On the flipside, the closer ties with Kislev and a Kislev that is NOT ruled by a Vampire changes the ball-park significantly.
I think, given time it's possible Kislev pays back the Empire for it's investment (warding off Chaos so the Empire doesn't need to do it, Occasional curious/exiled Ice Witch heading down south to do good, etc, etc.) but the nasty flipside of course is that we now have two powerful polities next to each other who may not remain friendly-in fact, beyond the whole 'squabbly humans' dealie, there's Skaven under the Empire and Chaos Gods who are going to reach out to whomever they can to disrupt the two nations/ set them at odds with each other/ create divisions and sore points until they can use the one to beat the other down and finish both off.

Click to shrink...

I mean, if it was that easy to set the human nations against each other to destroy them, don't you think that would've been done ages ago? As far as I know, Bretonnia and the Empire have never had a war that went beyond the regional level, the Empire rode to Kislev's aid during the Great War Against Chaos, and Kislev returned the favor when both Nordland and Ostland were invaded. Bretonnia also recently opened a embassy in Nuln, so that should help relations a lot.

Not to mention that I don't think Kislev would be so easily manipulated, given that Chaos is by far their #1 enemy, and one that they've been fighting since before they were even Kislevites.

In regards to the infrastructure thing, If I were given a choice between taming three of the Empire's most troublesome hotspots (Middle Mountains, Forest of Shadows, and Sylvania) and marginally improved infrastructure, I'm going to pick the former everyday. Saying that the Empire isn't in better shape compared to canon at this point seems kinda silly, IMO.

 

[Shane_357]

Gonna be honest, when I first realised this was a 'we must catch up to the world' bit, my first thought was a Wood Elf trying to study at the Engineering School.

 

[Hangwind]

Gonna be honest, when I first realised this was a 'we must catch up to the world' bit, my first thought was a Wood Elf trying to study at the Engineering School.

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I'm actually quite excited about the idea of Life Engineering. Sure, it's not cannons or flamethrowers, but there are a lot of improvements that could be made with Wood Elf knowledge.

 

[pucflek]

I'm actually quite excited about the idea of Life Engineering. Sure, it's not cannons or flamethrowers, but there are a lot of improvements that could be made with Wood Elf knowledge.

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I honestly don't think we will ever get to the point where we would cooperate like this in our lifetime. And by that i do not mean Freddy, but our, IRL one.