are we really gonna have this argument again, even before we are done with this campaign?
Good point.

Wonder if Freddy is hanging out just outside the gates to Morrs' Garden if he is shooting the breeze with the Death God.

That ought to be a unique experience talking to Death itself like any other person.
 
Chaos is winning.

the vampires are the only humans completely immune to chaos corruption, also there immortal and objectively superior to the average human in every meaningful way.

Nagash soloed a country.

Chaos Warrior are better than the elites of some armies.

Humans are better when they're corrupted, full stop.

In gaining power both Nagash and the greater servants of Chaos sacrificed their intrinsic humanity, humans can't win by either path because both aed in thraldom whether to the Dark Gods who are pointless in their atavistic existence or to Nagash himself who designed vampires to be his puppets and extensions of his will ultimately, his Daemons.

In your quest to make humanity powerful you have forgotten to keep them human.:p
 
I highly doubt Ice Magic will ever become a widespread thing no matter what.

Not sure how well that will work but it might be possibly with all the Widow worship Kat is trying to spread around.

Also wonder if Priests/Priestesses of the Widow and her kids won't leave Kislev and attempt to spread the religion all across the Old World.
The Ice Hags can keep the knowledge of how their magic works to themselves. I don't care about that. I just want to eliminate the geographic limitation on Kat and Nat's descendants.
 
Keep in mind, for every Sir Roland, Bretonnia probably has a dozen inbred Hapsburgs. When your entire nobility is descended from thirteen people things tend to turn out either really good or really bad.
Depends.

Sharing a common ancestor isn't a bad thing as long as enough generations have come in between(enough fresh blood having been added).

With how they are supposed to start out as errant knights(having to prove themselves on the field of battle). You should theoretically purge most of the Hapsburgs. Especially with the Lady tinkering on their genes.

no being a vampire is the exact same thing as being a dwarf (Except not really, your much less bound up in grudges, zacharias was just a particularly crazy fucker even before he became a vampire.)

and the vampire is even better than chaos because you still have free will.
Vampires have Dhar eternally grinding at their soul. With the drinking of blood acting as a conduit for draining(part of) another person's soul as ablative armour.

Being a vampire slowly gives you the kind of mindset that's the reason Skaven haven't conquered the world yet.
 
The Ice Hags can keep the knowledge of how their magic works to themselves. I don't care about that. I just want to eliminate the geographic limitation on Kat and Nat's descendants.
I really don't think Ice Mages will ever overcome that limitation and there is nothing we could possibly do with it anyway so no point to talk about it.
 
I really don't think Ice Mages will ever overcome that limitation and there is nothing we could possibly do with it anyway so no point to talk about it.
I know from previous discussion that the limitation is a result of the ley lines. Theoretically, all we would have to do is get an Ice Mage to do something boon-worthy for a Slann, or even maybe just complain about feeling powerless without her magic in front of one, until the Slann grants the boon / takes an interest and makes the necessary changes. Even if a Slann wasn't directly involved in creating Ice Magic in the first place as per the popular theory... it's the Slann. Large-scale reality alterations are their thing.
 
I know from previous discussion that the limitation is a result of the ley lines. Theoretically, all we would have to do is get an Ice Mage to do something boon-worthy for a Slann, or even maybe just complain about feeling powerless without her magic in front of one, until the Slann grants the boon / takes an interest and makes the necessary changes. Even if a Slann wasn't directly involved in creating Ice Magic in the first place as per the popular theory... it's the Slann. Large-scale reality alterations are their thing.
And I highly doubt any Ice Mage will have any chance to meet a Slann let alone all the other problems with you idea.

Lets just be happy with what we have on the subject of Ice magic and leave as is since we are in no position to do anything only Kat is and I doubt she can do what you are suggesting.
 
Slann I believe are the Lizards in Warhammer Fantasy. Imagine the Aztec/Inca Empire but Lizards and theirs gods are alpha-plus psyker toads.
 
And I highly doubt any Ice Mage will have any chance to meet a Slann let alone all the other problems with you idea.

Lets just be happy with what we have on the subject of Ice magic and leave as is since we are in no position to do anything only Kat is and I doubt she can do what you are suggesting.
I figure that narrative logic will eventually bring a Hohenzollern PC to Lustria, though I can't even begin to speculate on the context. The Hohenzollern line has Ice mages, so we could potentially take one with, and because they (Anna and Alexandra, at least) are both cross-trained in other disciplines, we would also have an excuse to do so (because they wouldn't be completely useless otherwise).

I am being the in character imperial. They don't recognize a difference between the lizard men andthe other-sorts-of-animals-men.
Teclis: "Because they know their shit."
Aurelion: *nods*
Hohenzollerns: "Okay."
 
The Reclamation of Karak Ungor: Garden's Gate Interlude
Garden's Gate

He'd never really thought about shades of black before. It had always seemed to be a single dark hue…but he knew better know. He certainly knew better now.

For here…in his dreams…there was nothing but darkness.

Yet after the first terrifying dreams where he had been within that great billowing void he realized that he was not trapped. Not at all. Rather he was safe there, safer in his dreams than he had ever been before. He was not ignorant of how the darker things in the world and beyond could tear into the dreams of mortal men. But the longer he was here the easier it became to see…more.

No longer did he have to strain his ears to hear the sounds of the sands in the hourglass falling down. The soft beat of a kindly raven flying across the black skies where subtle clouds shifted about in a shade of dark that only one who had been here long enough could see. Faint slicing through the air as a scythe passed by. Not a threat, just a reminder. All of it, a singular reminder of the simple acceptance.

Of death.

At first when the dreams began he had panicked, screamed, tried to run about only to find that his feet would find no purchase. After a time he had calmed as the seniors in the brotherhood counseled. A rare gift, they called it. A gift he had been quite sure he did not want at the beginning.

Things, of course, had changed.

The wail of his mother's voice, the steel and ice in her spine as she straightened not a day after. She could not be there to safeguard the corpse of her husband but she would certainly avenge him. A promise made, a promise that the promiser attempted to keep. That was what mattered – how grief had been forged into fury rather than an utter collapse of the spirit. Something that he had not even been needed for. In his own way he had turned further to faith as a salve to the wound dealt to his spirit.

Watching one close to him die had been enough. Yet before all of this he had not known if he could withstand the possibility of another falling in the same way.

That was before.

This was now.

Stretching around him in impossible lengths and thickness were thick bars of black steel. Not the corrupted color of Chaos but rather the grave and solemn color of the Garden. A realm stretching unto infinity that he couldn't see even a fraction of, a realm that refused to reveal anything even within the bars. One could look only to see a guarding black fog. In the early days he had not even been able to see that far. Eyes adjusted as did his mind and soul, however. Gargantuan stone pillars atop which great and terrible guardians of carved rock stood – intelligences within their eyes that he dared not contemplate.

In the center of the vast edifice lay, of course, The Gate.

A single solid portal made entirely of stone with sigils carved into every space – some in vast symbols larger than even Urgdug. Others were smaller than his fingernails. There was not a free space between them all. Each glowed – again with that impossible darkness. The color black wasn't supposed to be able to glow and yet there it was. Yet one could not assume anything in this Realm. Nor the neighboring Land that he stood upon. Upon the border he stood with one foot in one and his remaining foot in the other.

He dared not step within the Realm of the Dead fully, lest he go the way of the vast streams of souls already passing through. The Gate did not crack open in the center. There would be no point. Instead he watched as souls literally walked into the gate. In that same instance the light which followed them faded – signaling the true passage that all else was naught but an artifice for. Some of them were more aware than others – usually dying in battle or falling in violence. Others were basically shades already needing only that final step through the stone portal – least used and yet most important of His signs. Occasionally there were the stronger willed, who could not accept their death. He watched as they resisted.

Resisted…and changed.

Turning away from the natural course of things would inevitably warp them. In life one needed only look at what happened to vampires and necromancers. In death…they would change as well. In a twisted way they would return to the waking world. But what made them them would be warped. And yet he did nothing to stop it. Ghosts and Banshees, ghostly remnants of folk who were so anchored to the world of the living by their deaths…all that and more he had seen. In the beginning he had raged. He had tried to save them.

But he had learned.

Nearly dying had a way of teaching lessons. He could not stop the course of death. Doing so would…well.

It had a way of affecting a man.

But he could not simply leave.

Not when he had been called here.

His dreams were never peaceful anymore. They were full of portents and omens, and for the most part they passed faster than he could comprehend them. He was only mortal after all. Perhaps that was the point, to ever keep him humble after his first foolish mistake in stepping fully across the border. Dreams and death were far closer than he had ever thought despite reading the texts. Occasionally however he would catch them. Meanings were…hard for him, he was still learning from the Augurs.

The images would stay with him forever.

Burned into his skull by Morr. Faith rewarded with pain and struggle…and sleepless nights.

And yet he welcomed it. He welcomed the images. And, if he was honest, that intangible and glorious feeling of seeing the work of their God.

The images however…

A great beast with one horn, swathed in twin blankets that fought for dominance. One woven from a dozen and more pairs of hands for comfort and safety while the other choked and snarled at the mind and heart.

A somehow filthy and unnaturally pink rose whose thorns curled around a thousand motes of light – only for one to burn brighter and brighter in defiance.

A hammer in whose head was the shape of a crown. A hammer that slammed down harder and harder on an unyielding stone. A moss of…something far too warm grew over the stone and filled the cracks. In common course, not as an attack. Joined together they stood against the hammer…but grew weaker and weaker yet.

A mass of flesh and moans that lashed out with tentacles to grasp and rip at anything near it. The mass flowed closer and closer to its target…but he could not see where it was going.

All that and more.

The worst of it was…he would not remember half of these things with any true clarity upon waking. Nevertheless he forced himself to remain, staring at the Gate and the images that passed before his eyes and being. Hoping against hope that this time he would wake and remember. But every time it slipped away from him. Again and again. Despite that he refused to stop trying.

He was Hohenzollern.

And for all that remained in Wulfenburg, he would do his part...Morr willing.

Arthur von Hohenzollern Gains:
Trait: Trait: Religious Revelation – Has seen the awful majesty of the Realm of the Dead and the Land of Sleep in his dreams. Some would call it a curse, yet he calls it a gift for it is a wondrous showing of his connection to Morr. (+4 Piety)
Trait: Dreams of Omens - The reading of portents and omens has ever been one of the main focuses of Augurs within the Cult of Morr. Reading them correctly is nigh impossible but receiving them at all is seen as a major blessing of connection to the God of Dreams and Death. (+3 Piety)
Trait: Morrish Pallor - As a result of foolishly crossing further into the Realm of the Dead than the living can be allowed during initial communions with the God of Death, the skin of this man has been left with a tinge of grey. It frightens many, but to those who know it is an almost peaceful new coloration and a sign from Morr himself. (+2 Piety, -1 Diplomacy)
 
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The Reclamation of Karak Ungor: Part 27 - Magnus
Karak Ungor 27
You are not a priest of Sigmar, just a man with faith. Yet you've seen undeniable proof of the power of His followers before. For goodness sake a full pound of the various talismans and necklaces that are draped across your father's body are brightly glowing with the power of the hammer wielding god. That and you've seen the shields of burning gold that appear when goblin shamans have attempted to strike them. Light that cascaded over torn flesh and left little but scars behind and sometimes even less. Blasts of holy fury which boiled the blood and scorched the flesh of those who would stand against the Warrior Priests.

Dwarves are forever going to be a fair bit more insular than humanity. It is in their nature. When they arrived back at the supply keep – this place really needs a name – they set to their own little sectioned off portions. Tents went up, and though there is a fair bit more of conversation and walking back and forth between your people it is not particularly expansive in its interconnectedness. A shame but that is simply the way things are. Princess Fenna and Anna are busying themselves with Sven's book and its secrets while Gorrin and his fellows are deep within the set up distillery and speaking in the dwarf tongue.

Without a major need to talk to anyone about anything beyond simple cursory conversation you elect to partake in something that might have more immediate and tangible results. Or maybe not, one cannot just assume that they will have the favor of the Gods in anything they do for certain. Unless, perhaps, one were a priest of the faith. The Grand Theogonist, for instance, likely doesn't doubt for a second whenever he utilizes his conduit to Sigmar to do things. In any case…your choice seems a simple one. In the absence of possessing any magic yourself or the ability to heal things as the priests do all that remains for you to aid your father is to pray.

And pray you shall.

When you arrive at your father's tent, you boggle slightly at even more charms being placed upon his body. Sir Roland mused as he made his way to the sparring yard that it was oddly like certain people in Bretonnia would treat the bodies of the legendary Grail Knights save for the fact that it was most certain that your father is alive. Yet unexpectedly there is another within the tent. A faint split second of concern spikes through you enough to grasp at Brain Wounder along your side before you strain your eyes through the low lighting to see that it is just some of the Priests of Sigmar. Ten new Warrior Priests had arrived with the reinforcements your mother had sent so it is not unexpected that you wouldn't recognize each one of them.

Said two priests look up from staring down at your father, rather startled, at your sudden entrance but relax upon seeing who it is. Well, one does, the other seems entirely entranced at seeing so many holy icons being placed on your father.

"Ah, my apologies my lord," the more attentive one stammers, which is rather strange to see from a warrior priest.

"It is no trouble…," you trail off, looking expectantly at him.

"Ah, Oswald, Oswald Huss, sir," he bobs his head.

"Greetings, Oswald Huss," you bow slightly while forming the sign of Sigmar with your hands. "Your companion seems rather…distracted."

He hasn't even looked up, instead holding his hands out over your father while murmuring. Faint light curls over his hands as the priest hums. Oswald rubs his forehead with the back of his hand before swatting at his companion.

"Pay attention Kurt," he hisses.

Finally, 'Kurt' looks up, and blanches at seeing you. Or perhaps at his lack of respect though you aren't one to demand it from people. One only earns respect, those who demand it aren't worth what they speak of.

"I-oh! I apologize, herr Hohenzollern. I meant no offense. But merely seeing what our brothers have done in the meantime is…quite inspiring."

"It does my heart good to see the Gods of the Empire granting my father any favor at all, Sigmar especially," you chuckle. "But I am sure that you have must to speak of with your companions?"

Left unsaid is that you quite clearly wish to be alone with your father.

"Of course, we are just…very out of sorts being this far underground. I don't see how the dwarves could live like this as they have for so long," Oswald coughs nervously as he begins dragging his companion out.

"Sigmar, Ulric, Taal, Manaan, so many…," Kurt murmurs in a dazed manner as they exit.

You cannot help but smile slightly. Even the priests can be dazzled by the gods it seems.

Then you look at your father, and the smile fades.

All the powers of the Gods indeed, all represented here save for their darker peers…or at the least tricksters and thieves you do not need as in Ranald. The power of a Jade Wizard Lord, and her associates. More than ten Warrior Priests of Sigmar, and all the expertise of Shallya's acolytes. What more could a single prayer from you possibly do? You are not the Grand Theogonist or the Arch Lectors – though if anything you are quite certain that even in such positions that men are not infallible if such filth such as Jung are capable of making it – you are just…you. Just Magnus von Hohenzollern. Not even the great hero Frederick, the Steel Bull.

…you are just one man, not even past your second decade. So you will allow yourself the impetuousness of youth and pray over your father anyway. The stone is hard but luckily you haven't yet taken off your armor so with a heavy metallic thump you fall to your knees.

Then you pray.

"Sigmar, watch over my noble father…."

(Praying To Sigmar: 93/100)

You can't say if anything actually happened. Still, for the whole day, you remain in prayer. Occasionally rising to relieve yourself and get yourself fed and watered, but you always return to continue. The Light of Summer, carefully placed on your father's neck alongside the various other necklaces and pieces of religious iconography, lit up in a brief flash occasionally that almost blinded you the first few times as the strange magic of the Wood Elves went to work. But that is not Sigmar's light. You know the difference, especially after fighting in battle alongside the Warrior Priests themselves. At the same time you can't say that you feel as if this was a pointless exercise. The point of faith…isn't just pulling a trigger on a handgun and having something immediately happen.

But you feel better, and if you let yourself then you can perhaps see a slightly easing of the near constant rictus of pain on your father's face. A thought strikes you then, as you consider Sigmar and the rest of the Gods represented here. Certainly much of this is the work of the priests, but the well wishes of many a soldier to the man who slew Zacharias the Everliving are present as well in their own myriad ways. Several dozen good luck charms, for instance. But…

It's quite a bit, isn't it?

Almost an uncomfortable amount of weight. You know that if the actual healers in here they would probably tell you not to mess about with anything here but…well. They aren't here right now. They can't be watching over him every hour of the day – that is the purview of the Greatswords. As such, you shift away some of the charms that have been laid upon the voluminous amount of bandages all over him, and tug away some of the necklaces that are practically crushing his throat with their collective weight – not removing them entirely, just…loosening the burden on your father's flesh.

Just an impulse decision, but one that you cannot help but think is the right one.

======================================================
Little else is done for the night, save for a bit of sparring with some volunteer soldiers who want to see if you really are all you're cracked up to be – soldiers who were apparently near the back of the charge and did not see you personally fight. Even now your twisted victory at the Gates in the Upper Deeps stains part of your reputation. But by the end of it those same soldiers are battered and nearly broken on the ground and you are not. Few are incapable of denying your abilities and worth now – which is nice…but you don't take a great flush of pleasure from it either. Not like you would have before.

Sigmar, what pride you had when you started this campaign.

In the morning, after a short breakfast, you turn to those same sparring yards again. There are still a few faint kinks in your wrists and torso from where the knives struck you. Healed as they may be now the scar tissue still tugs oddly at the very edge of your rather well-honed senses. Better to work it out now so that every single movement you may make on the battlefield is as smooth as possible. It is only a small amount of difference – but you know well that even small differences can mean the difference between life and death.

It is only an hour or so of that before someone intrudes.

"Hoy! Magnus me manling!"

Chuckling, you rise from the three swordsmen who you had just laid out onto their backs and turn to Princess Fenna as she approaches.

"Princess," you bow slightly before wiping the sweat from your brow. "Was there something you needed?"

"Ehhhhh," she shrugs, "Jus' wanted t' ask something, that uh…that little feller, yer know 'im?"

"Little fellow…," you raise an eyebrow in question.

"Anna's little feller. Came in on th' last supply train from th' Gates, 'e calls 'imself Samewise. Ya ken him?"

Ah.

"You mean my sister's personal assistant. I was wondering when he would recover."

Such a plucky young halfling. He'd ridden himself unto exhaustion just getting to the Gates, passing through the numerous checkpoints that the dwarves had set up behind them as they passed deeper into the hold. Still if he had not arrived with his messages, delivered to you in one of those rare moments of clarity when the poisons burned through you, you might not have finally allowed Lady Wolfgang to truly use her powers to their fullest extent. With a throne of vines surrounding her and her whole body thrumming with magic…well.

Best remembering that it is because of that you are here at all.

"Yeah, well, 'es…'es odd, yeah?"

"A little," you concede, "His loyalty to her is rather astonishing, for someone who hasn't even known her his whole life."

"Yeah, well, 'es all…depressed now, and I ain't having that cloud o' negativity in me baby. She needs positive thoughts ta go, yeah?"

Ah, Samwise. He is probably horrified at what happened to your sister. To be fair, you were as well – still are somewhat when you think about it.

"I understand your frustration," you shrug, "But he knew her…before."

"Afore what?"

"She was…mmph," you stutter to a halt.

How to explain to Princess Fenna who Anna was? The Master Engineer of Ostland that met the mad princess for the first time was not the same one that entered Karak Ungor.

"Different. Her magic…"

"Oooh," Fenna nods before shaking her head, "You humans and yer magic. Ye can't trust that stuff, yeah? I 'member now, the stories her little children be talking about."

"Yes. She was certainly more fiery…before."

"Mmph. So I got here just in time to not meet her, yeah? Instead I get the her what got bamboozled by her own magic."

"Indeed," you sigh heavily.

"S'untrustorthy. Ye can't rely on magic, yeah? Anyway, just wanted to ask. My baby's good, but I didn't know if I could just trust some…not-a-dwarf to be inside 'er alongside with me n' Anna."

Then she's leaving.

Princess Fenna seems conditioned to just leave when she finds a conversation done apparently.

Nothing you can do about that.

A few hours later find the resupply done. The Throng of Zhufbar is readying itself to move out, and the Army of Ostland alongside them. Where you go next is up to you, as while you could begin working through the tunnels and paths once more to clear the foes from them there has been no news from the Runeforge nor the Great Hall. That on its own is not necessarily a damning fact but Princess Fenna was not entirely capable of hiding the flicker of concern that ran through her voice when you spoke to her about it. Her dwarves nonetheless are heading out to begin blocking tunnels – now that surely many of the foes on this level have been slain – and collapsing goblin and skaven built caves.

You can do the same, with dwarf engineers provided to you to assist…but you don't have to do so.

Runelord Kragg and King Stonehammer remain at their objectives – hopefully. They may not need your assistance…or perhaps they do.

It is up to you, while Anna and Samwise take up with Princess Fenna once more.

Choose The Army of Ostland's Next Move:
[] Continue As Before – Clearing out goblins and skaven from the greater parts of this half of the Middle Deeps. With engineers provided by the dwarves, you can set about closing tunnels and breaking down enemy caves entirely to shut them out once and for all.

OR

[] March To Aid…(Choose One)
- [] King Stonehammer [The Great Hall of Karak Ungor]
- [] Runelord Kragg the Grim [The Runeforge]
 
to spend time with his youngest children while they're still children.
Despite GM shutting down this discussion, I'll clarify why this isn't an option. Remember, the kids go to the Amethyst College, the one with the heaviest indoctrination and with secrecy second only to the Grey College. The fact that he's allowed to visit at all points out that someone high up is pulling strings.
I want him to retire to Altdorf
Well. Technically we've left our Electoral Embassy and Prime Estate abandoned for 25 years, due to Freddy's negligence. So he could retire into that role, but....

As I said. Dip score of a potato.
 
Despite GM shutting down this discussion, I'll clarify why this isn't an option. Remember, the kids go to the Amethyst College, the one with the heaviest indoctrination and with secrecy second only to the Grey College. The fact that he's allowed to visit at all points out that someone high up is pulling strings.

I suspect that someone is Freddy himself. Elector counts are not exactly political light-weights.
 
[X] Continue As Before – Clearing out goblins and skaven from the greater parts of this half of the Middle Deeps. With engineers provided by the dwarves, you can set about closing tunnels and breaking down enemy caves entirely to shut them out once and for all.

Still more things left to kill~
 
[X] Continue As Before – Clearing out goblins and skaven from the greater parts of this half of the Middle Deeps. With engineers provided by the dwarves, you can set about closing tunnels and breaking down enemy caves entirely to shut them out once and for all.
 
[X] Continue As Before – Clearing out goblins and skaven from the greater parts of this half of the Middle Deeps. With engineers provided by the dwarves, you can set about closing tunnels and breaking down enemy caves entirely to shut them out once and for all.
They have their roles, we have ours.
 
[X] Continue As Before – Clearing out goblins and skaven from the greater parts of this half of the Middle Deeps. With engineers provided by the dwarves, you can set about closing tunnels and breaking down enemy caves entirely to shut them out once and for all.
 
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