@OneirosTheWriter: I'm not sure if it is possible to talk to them about both starbases AND aid though. How much can we talk to a faction about?

Another question is how many factions we can approach. I'd like to do the aid shipments and maybe try to get the Pacifists on board with mediating the Licori situation. Maybe we could get the Mercantilists behind a couple of diplomatic pushes, as well, there's groups like the Hosnians where it would be easy to get them to affiliates but not pressing.
 
[X][COUNCIL] Plan Bank Anti-Syndicate Influence for Next Year, Apiata, Sydraxians, Crew
[X][FACTION] Approach the Pacifists about fueling extra sophontitarian relief aid to the Orions

Thanks for the in-depth analysis, @Simon_Jester .
 
We should probably hold off on further anti-Syndicate actions while we deal with the two potential diplomatic issues. As much as I hate to give the Syndicate more of a free hand than otherwise, we really should try to defuse the Sydaxian issue and stop the Apiata from pulling us into a war.
The flip side of that is that we'd be a lot better positioned to deal with the Sydraxians if we didn't have a Combat 13-16 task force, plus the "flood sectors near Orions" ships, collectively consisting of much of our available reserve force, tied down dealing with the Syndicate.

Right now, we really don't have the naval strength to just straight-up BEAT the Sydraxians unless the Council authorizes us to invade them, which is not likely. And we haven't laid the groundwork for a diplomatic solution because the Yrillians and Gretarians are still at best lukewarm towards us. Solving this problem any time soon is not really an option.

Now, to be clear, if you're saying that diplomacy with the Gretarians is more important than building anti-Syndicate Influence... well, you have a point. I'm not sure I agree with you. But you definitely have a good point.

So correct me if I'm wrong but we have basically no idea how well we're actually doing against the syndicate?
No, that's not true.

We know we've knocked out somewhere between 1/4 and 1/2 of their ability to take offensive actions against us, but have only done about 10% to 25% as much damage as we need to in order to, uh... 'neutralize' the Syndicate fully. The question is exactly where we are on that scale, which depends on just how resilient the Syndicate is to our battering.

There's a few border planets which have been improved and a number of major busts, but the brunt of the operation was always going to be breaking the systemic corruption in the core worlds without fundamentally breaking their government.
Yes, but breaking that systematic corruption is going to be a LOT easier if we first roll up some of the minor worlds and reduce the Syndicate's overall strength, forcing them onto the defensive.

Okay, there's a subtle distinction that tripped a lot of us up in the analysis. We didn't "just pass the 80 threshold". Rather we were just informed that we passed the 80 threshold. QM implied it had happened some time ago, but it took us until now to be sure that the Syndicate do in fact have less actions. How long ago did we actually pass the 80 threshold? We don't know. Maybe a year ago, maybe six months ago.

The calculation of 40 resilience was based on assumption that we had only just now passed the 80 threshold, which was then corrected.
Well, what it comes down to is:

BEST CASE: We just passed 200 impact in the last couple of months, in which case Syndicate resilience is practically zero. It would be nice to believe this, but we probably shouldn't.

GOOD CASE: We passed 80 impact about 8-12 months ago and are only now finding out. In this case, Syndicate resilience is, I don't know, 10-20?

BAD CASE: We passed 80 impact about 3-6 months ago and are only now finding out. In this case, Syndicate resilience might be more like, oh, 20-30.

WORST CASE: We just passed 80 impact in the last couple of months, in which case Syndicate resilience is very high (40 or so). This is a very pessimistic assessment. It can't be worse than this, because if it were, we wouldn't have that "we passed a threshold" notifier AT ALL.

In the best case, the conflict will probably last about five years if we don't step up our response anymore. In the worst case, it could be more like fifteen years.

The more pessimistic you are about which of those four cases you choose to believe, the higher a priority you place on ramping up our anti-Syndicate response in order to beat their 'damage reduction.' The more optimistic you are, the lower the priority you place on it.

I disagree with Simon_Jester. Building up influence will be useless until next snakepit. Thus, I am changing my vote to Nix's plan.
Thing is, we will then have to spend 20pp to buy the Influence and 30pp to get the 2313 Amendment. So we're not reducing our costs, we're just deferring them until later, unless I'm misunderstanding how this works.

That'll be expensive though, because that's the Snakepit we're planning on ordering up the Ambassador, no?
Thing is, it looks like ordering new ship classes just got cheaper overall, so that helps us. Plus, we'll have already taken care of some long-term priorities (like getting meaningful policy decisions on the Apiata-Cardassian conflict and the Sydraxian border war), so we may not be quite so pressed for political will. If we're lucky.
 
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Can I just say that sophontitarian is an ugly-looking and probably hard to pronounce word?

We need to get something better. I suggest maybe digging through german for a word like Lebensformargumentationfähigkeitenmenschen, which I just made up.
 
Thing is, we will then have to spend 20pp to buy the Influence and 30pp to get the 2313 Amendment. So we're not reducing our costs, we're just deferring them until later, unless I'm misunderstanding how this works.
However, I'd rather get something that will benefit us sooner.

Diplomacy now allows for pushing them to 100 next snakepit.
 
Seriously, I would give up 100pp to have Kimball Kinnison working for us right now... that was right in his wheelhouse. [sighs]

Heh... now there's a blast from the past. Ah, Lensmen... home of absurdly scaling space battles and over-the-top investigative drama.

[X][FACTION] Approach the Pacifists about fueling extra sophontitarian relief aid to the Orions

I like this; relief aid could help mitigate Cost, could lead to increase in low-level intel (people favorable are liable to drop hints or outright inform), could lead to the Syndicate trying to sabotage or co-opt that aid instead of going after our vessels or plotting assassinations (note that they've only got so many things they can do at once - fewer now, going by the flavor text). It also might lead to the Pacifists having a good opinion of Starfleet going forward, perhaps to the point of being less obstructive if we need to take more 'warlike' actions elsewhere.

On plans... I'll edit in something once review them again. I know I want:

* Request Academy Development, 35pp (Gain +.5 Officers/Enlisted/Techs throughput)
* Request Refit Program for Constellation class [+1 C,S,D, for 20br, 10sr, 1 Year (4 turns)], 6 turns 18pp (NB: new unit cost for Constellation will be 70/45)
* NEW Request Mining Colony at Corvo, 8pp (4 turns, gain +10 (15) sr/year)
* NEW Request Research Colony at Aga Carmide, 8pp (4 turns, gain +7rp/year)

And want to do minimal diplomacy pushes at present (I'd rather prefer building up infrastructure or working at the current problems).

EDIT:

[X][COUNCIL] Base Plan Bank Anti-Syndicate Influence for Next Year, Apiata, Sydraxians, Crew

This is the closest to what I'd like, although I would've liked to see some new shipyards or bases.
 
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Okay, one big thing that might have been missed is, I think Oneiros has given us the belief that we can spend 20 PP this turn and get 5 more influence to amend the 'Syndicate Policy' next turn, when we can also do the 20PP/5 Influence option, even if we've done it this turn. We are just limited to increasing Influence by 5 per Snakepit.

Which means, if we don't take that option this turn, next year we'll have at best 5 Influence, rather than 10, to spend on amendments.

This is true, right @OneirosTheWriter
 
Well, Pyro, if our amendment options are restricted to the stuff we've already seen, we might have a hard time figuring out what to spend the extra Influence on. Five we can definitely spend; ten less so, especially if we don't also want to amp up ongoing political will costs and militarization.

Heh... now there's a blast from the past. Ah, Lensmen... home of absurdly scaling space battles and over-the-top investigative drama.
Tell me the Grey Lensman wouldn't be worth it, though. :D

I think we'll get more in the way of infrastructure and bases a bit later on.
 
The flip side of that is that we'd be a lot better positioned to deal with the Sydraxians if we didn't have a Combat 13-16 task force, plus the "flood sectors near Orions" ships, collectively consisting of much of our available reserve force, tied down dealing with the Syndicate.

Right now, we really don't have the naval strength to just straight-up BEAT the Sydraxians unless the Council authorizes us to invade them, which is not likely. And we haven't laid the groundwork for a diplomatic solution because the Yrillians and Gretarians are still at best lukewarm towards us. Solving this problem any time soon is not really an option.

Now, to be clear, if you're saying that diplomacy with the Gretarians is more important than building anti-Syndicate Influence... well, you have a point. I'm not sure I agree with you. But you definitely have a good point.

While it would be nice if we could up and pull out the Combat task force on a whim to deal with the Sydraxians, no matter what level of legislation we pass, it's not going to be enough to end the Syndicate quickly enough that we would have those vessels available. I think that building up the Yrillians and Gretarians will let us fix this problem more quickly. Moreover, once the Council is paying closer attention to this problem, we may get authorized to do things more effectively. How that will shake out I don't know, but I think that the Syndicate is not as important as foreign policy at present. The Syndicate is a festering wound. The Apiata and Sydraxians have the potential to blow up in our faces and start a real war with the Cardassians. And I really do not want to start a war with the Cardassians when the Pacifists hold the plurality in the Council...
 
And I really do not want to start a war with the Cardassians when the Pacifists hold the plurality in the Council...

Would this be a problem? I thought we had relatively broad crisis powers. Sure there would be more of an emphasis on diplomacy, but even the pacifists aren't going to just cede colonies.

Though I suppose they might be willing to cede affiliates which is a bad idea.
 
So correct me if I'm wrong but we have basically no idea how well we're actually doing against the syndicate?

There's a few border planets which have been improved and a number of major busts, but the brunt of the operation was always going to be breaking the systemic corruption in the core worlds without fundamentally breaking their government.

True, but the operation has always been predicated to some extent on Orions fighting Orions on the core worlds rather than the Federation moving in like an occupying force.
 
[X][COUNCIL] Plan Bank Anti-Syndicate Influence for Next Year, Apiata, Sydraxians, Crew
[X][FACTION] Approach the Pacifists about fueling extra sophontitarian relief aid to the Orions

suh-fohnt-it-eree-an

We really need a better word >_>
 
Come on guys, they're called the PACIFIST party not the APPEASEMENT party

Like we are talking the group that teamed up with us to fight the Syndicate instead of immediately surrendering to them, here
 
Would this be a problem? I thought we had relatively broad crisis powers. Sure there would be more of an emphasis on diplomacy, but even the pacifists aren't going to just cede colonies.

Though I suppose they might be willing to cede affiliates which is a bad idea.

We're not going to have a free hand to fight a war, is the problem. As soon as we gain the upper hand, we will most likely be stuck with severe and escalating PP costs until we back off and end the war.

[X][COUNCIL] Base Plan Pull Your Head Out of the Sand
 
The flip side of that is that we'd be a lot better positioned to deal with the Sydraxians if we didn't have a Combat 13-16 task force, plus the "flood sectors near Orions" ships, collectively consisting of much of our available reserve force, tied down dealing with the Syndicate.

Right now, we really don't have the naval strength to just straight-up BEAT the Sydraxians unless the Council authorizes us to invade them, which is not likely. And we haven't laid the groundwork for a diplomatic solution because the Yrillians and Gretarians are still at best lukewarm towards us. Solving this problem any time soon is not really an option.

This seems predicated on the idea we can resolve intractable Orion problem faster than we can intractable Syndraxi problem.

I see no particular reason for that to be the case. The Syndraxi problem has largely been intractable because we've ignored it, whereas the Orion problem is intractable because it is actually intractable and we have intelligence reports to prove it. Now if you're arguing the Orion problem assures we have to ignore the Syndraxi one, that has arguably been true, but things on that front are changing as our shipbuilding program improves our available resources. We will have options to cope with the Syndraxi in space before we are done with the long haul on the Syndicate.
 
[X][COUNCIL] Base Plan Pull Your Head Out of the Sand
[X][FACTION] Approach the Pacifists about fueling extra sophontitarian relief aid to the Orions
 
This seems predicated on the idea we can resolve intractable Orion problem faster than we can intractable Syndraxi problem.

I see no particular reason for that to be the case. The Syndraxi problem has largely been intractable because we've ignored it, whereas the Orion problem is intractable because it is actually intractable and we have intelligence reports to prove it. Now if you're arguing the Orion problem assures we have to ignore the Syndraxi one, that has arguably been true, but things on that front are changing as our shipbuilding program improves our available resources. We will have options to cope with the Syndraxi in space before we are done with the long haul on the Syndicate.
And this is why I am voting for Nix's plan.

It doesn't waste pp on gaining influence that will not be used until next snakepit, instead going for a diplo-push that will help solve the Syndraxian problem
 
While it would be nice if we could up and pull out the Combat task force on a whim to deal with the Sydraxians, no matter what level of legislation we pass, it's not going to be enough to end the Syndicate quickly enough that we would have those vessels available. I think that building up the Yrillians and Gretarians will let us fix this problem more quickly. Moreover, once the Council is paying closer attention to this problem, we may get authorized to do things more effectively. How that will shake out I don't know, but I think that the Syndicate is not as important as foreign policy at present. The Syndicate is a festering wound. The Apiata and Sydraxians have the potential to blow up in our faces and start a real war with the Cardassians.
War between us and Sydraxia is very unlikely to result in war with Cardassia, unless the Cardassians decide to invade US opportunistically. Which, I suspect, would give us enough popular support that the Pacifists' plurality will not be a problem. I expect that we'd at least be able to pry loose Bajor and knock out the Sydraxians in the ensuing conflict, and that would be good enough for me.

Now, the Apiata situation does have the position to start a war with Cardassia. But since literally every plan on offer spends the exact same amount of political will doing exactly the same thing on that issue, it doesn't make any difference for purposes of choosing one plan over another.

We're not going to have a free hand to fight a war, is the problem. As soon as we gain the upper hand, we will most likely be stuck with severe and escalating PP costs until we back off and end the war.
Er... what do you think would happen with an Expansionist plurality, anyway? If the Cardassians offer peace, the Expansionists would likely want to take it too. Even if a war starts, it's not going to end in the destruction of the Cardassian Union as a political entity, realistically. Not unless we somehow wound up with an overwhelming Hawk plurality, which isn't in the cards.

Realistically, the best we can expect from a war is to knock the Cardassians back. Blow up some of their ships, and, oh... I'd say our war aims should be:

1) Put an end to the Sydraxian raids by securing an agreement to that effect from the Sydraxian government.
2) Put an end to Sydraxian coercion of the Gretarians.
3) Keep Cardassian occupation troops off Bajor.
4) OPTIONAL: Partially disarm the Sydraxians
5) OPTIONAL: Declare the Bajor Sector to be neutral space, free of both sides' military, with the structure of the Bajoran government to be determined by plebiscite among the Bajorans themselves.

We're not going to end this war with redshirt boots on Cardassian core worlds. Don't think of this as a total war along the lines of World War One and Two. Think in terms of the "cabinet wars" of 17th and 18th century Europe. A few provinces change hands, one side may pay a modest fine, the more belligerent affiliates of one of the great powers get slapped hard, but the general shape of the map doesn't change very much.

This seems predicated on the idea we can resolve intractable Orion problem faster than we can intractable Syndraxi problem.

I see no particular reason for that to be the case. The Syndraxi problem has largely been intractable because we've ignored it, whereas the Orion problem is intractable because it is actually intractable and we have intelligence reports to prove it. Now if you're arguing the Orion problem assures we have to ignore the Syndraxi one, that has arguably been true, but things on that front are changing as our shipbuilding program improves our available resources. We will have options to cope with the Syndraxi in space before we are done with the long haul on the Syndicate.
I'm voting for a plan that spends 50pp on actions directed against the Sydraxian Hierarchy. Thirty to get the Council to talk about it, and twenty to get the Yrillians on our side, insofar as the Yrillians are on anybody's side.

Part of me wishes this plan ALSO spent another 20pp on yet another action aimed at the Hierarchy, in the form of diplomacy to the Gretarians. But what it comes down to is that we have three pressing problems at this time: the Apiata, the Sydraxians, and the Syndicate. And my choices are:

Nix's Plan: 30pp on the Apiata, 70pp on the Sydraxians
lbmaian's Plan: 30pp on the Apiata, 50pp on the Sydraxians, 20pp on the Syndicate.

I feel that the latter breakdown is more in line with our priorities right now, so I'm voting for it.

EDIT: To clarify, none of the other plans on offer, EXCEPT @Chaos Blade 's not-really-a-plan-for-voting plan, spends more than 100 TOTAL political will on the combination of "Apiata problem plus Sydraxian problem plus Syndicate problem." Most of them spend less. Chaos Blade's proposal spends 120, but at the cost of de-emphasizing crew recruitment compared to the plans of @Nix and @lbmaian.

And this is why I am voting for Nix's plan.

It doesn't waste pp on gaining influence that will not be used until next snakepit, instead going for a diplo-push that will help solve the Syndraxian problem
A diplomatic push on the Gretarians will probably ALSO not help until next year or later. Their relations with us are at 50/100; we have to push them at least twice, and/or have random events break in our favor, before they hit Affiliate status.

So you can't use "won't matter for the next twelve months" as a reason to favor pushing the Gretarians over building up anti-Syndicate influence.
 
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1) Put an end to the Sydraxian raids by securing an agreement to that effect from the Sydraxian government.
2) Put an end to Sydraxian coercion of the Gretarians.
3) Keep Cardassian occupation troops off Bajor.
4) OPTIONAL: Partially disarm the Sydraxians
5) OPTIONAL: Declare the Bajor Sector to be neutral space, free of both sides' military, with the structure of the Bajoran government to be determined by plebiscite among the Bajorans themselves.
I personally feel we really need to stop pretending the Daiwar are just going to fall into our pockets or won't support the Cardassians-we don't have them Enclaved, they're being built up, and we don't have them diplomatically leaning far enough in our direction so that bad blood with the Caitians won't matter. Seeing them appear nowhere on these objectives in any way seems to me a bit too dismissive of them-do you think they're not worth considering in the settlements because we'll overawe them, or do you think we'll want to treat the space-dwarves with kid-gloves so they join up quicker?
 
[X][COUNCIL] Plan Bank Anti-Syndicate Influence for Next Year, Apiata, Sydraxians, Crew
[X][FACTION] Approach the Pacifists about fueling extra sophontitarian relief aid to the Orions

Okay, I'm convinced. The Recruitment Drive will let us put an EC Excelsior out a year earlier, which will yield its own rewards. It's more valuable than the Science Academy right now. And I don't think a push on the Gretarians will accomplish much, especially if we are about to wade hip-deep into Sydraxians.
 
I personally feel we really need to stop pretending the Daiwar are just going to fall into our pockets or won't support the Cardassians-we don't have them Enclaved, they're being built up, and we don't have them diplomatically leaning far enough in our direction so that bad blood with the Caitians won't matter. Seeing them appear nowhere on these objectives in any way seems to me a bit too dismissive of them-do you think they're not worth considering in the settlements because we'll overawe them, or do you think we'll want to treat the space-dwarves with kid-gloves so they join up quicker?
We should definitely push them. I'm hoping that the elections go better for Expansionists next time - cheap Diplo-pushes are always good. However, unlike the others, it's not quite clear what would garner increased support for them.
 
Incidentally, I favor diplomatic pushes on the Dawiar. The problem is that in my book they're a lower priority than the Yrillians (who are one of the keys to the Sydraxian situation) and the Gretarians (who are the other key). And with diplomatic pushes having abruptly doubled in price, we have to be choosy about which ones we pick.

If we still got to buy diplomatic pushes for a paltry 10pp, I would be strongly advocating pushes on all three of the Dawiar/Gretarian/Yrillian trio, and maybe throwing those cool cathedral-ship guys in for good measure.

I personally feel we really need to stop pretending the Daiwar are just going to fall into our pockets or won't support the Cardassians-we don't have them Enclaved, they're being built up, and we don't have them diplomatically leaning far enough in our direction so that bad blood with the Caitians won't matter. Seeing them appear nowhere on these objectives in any way seems to me a bit too dismissive of them-do you think they're not worth considering in the settlements because we'll overawe them, or do you think we'll want to treat the space-dwarves with kid-gloves so they join up quicker?
If the Dawiar actually choose to join the Cardassians in attacking us, then yes, I'd advocate adding something about them to our war aims.

But basically, the Dawiar only attacked Federation ships when they thought they were being shot at, or for ritual purposes identical to those of the Amarki. They only attacked the Caitians because they thought the Caitians attacked them without provocation after a history of conflict over the border between the two species' territory. They proved amenable to peace negotiations on reasonable terms.

And they haven't attacked the Federation itself at all, at any time, outside of the first contact incident* and the cultural incident. They don't raid our space, they don't blow up our freighters, and nobody is talking about having to create a Dawiar Border Zone to protect the Caitian Sector from them.

If we factor in omakes, the Dawiar are the most... disaffected... of the various Cardassian affiliates. To the point where I almost hesitate to call them affiliates of Cardassia at all. I suspect they are trending towards "neutral, maybe slightly in Cardassia's favor if the price is right." The Cardassians obviously don't respect them (e.g. their interactions in the Grey October incident).

Now, again, if the Dawiar actually attack us, YES, I would advocate adding something about them to our war aims.

But I don't expect them to do that. They've already been manipulated into attacking a single Federation affiliate, and that did not go well for them, despite the Federation itself being extremely restrained in dealing with them. I think they'll stay out, at least briefly, and that we'll have an opportunity to use our "state of emergency" diplomatic assets to approach the Dawiar and persuade them to remain neutral.

[EDIT: I am sort of tacitly assuming that the state of emergency rules for war mobilization still work sort of like they did in the Biophage crisis. Maybe not exactly the same, but similar enough that we'll be able to do things like task special groups of diplomats to go talk to specific alien species we need a favor from]

If so, then we have no pressing need to do anything to the Dawiar, or about the Dawiar. If anything, it would be to our advantage to leave a 'Cardassian affiliate' alone if it chooses to remain neutral, because that shows minor species elsewhere in the galaxy that we respect their rights and aren't going to go looking for excuses to impose our will on them.

And my drafted war aims were based pretty much entirely on the war I expect to happen. I freely admit that the exact circumstances could differ from what I expect. But obviously, if that happens, I'm going to change the items on my to-do list to fit the circumstances.
________________

*(Which may have been literally their first contact with aliens EVER, an easy time to have a severe misunderstanding)
 
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I personally feel we really need to stop pretending the Daiwar are just going to fall into our pockets or won't support the Cardassians-we don't have them Enclaved, they're being built up, and we don't have them diplomatically leaning far enough in our direction so that bad blood with the Caitians won't matter. Seeing them appear nowhere on these objectives in any way seems to me a bit too dismissive of them-do you think they're not worth considering in the settlements because we'll overawe them, or do you think we'll want to treat the space-dwarves with kid-gloves so they join up quicker?

This Snakepit the description of our relations with the Cardassians went from "Major Conflict Avoided" (2311 Snakepit) to "High Tension Levels" (2312 Snakepit).

Look at how they freaked out when we tried to take the Bajorans from them. I am genuinely worried about what they would do if we managed to grab the Dawiar. Maybe see if we can reduce those tension levels somehow, or at least let matters rest for a year.
 
I feel that picking up the syndicate influence option can wait until next snakepit as we cannot use it until then. Unfortunately diplo pushes jumped in cost as I would have liked adding the Dawiar to the diplo pushes at the least. But I do think we need to resolve the Sydraxian and Apiata this turn. Also do we need the extra explorer crew? From shipyard ops this turn we had
11-O 12.45-E and 13.4 T, we used 6,5,5 and 1,1,1 ( I think we grabbed the 1 extra crew?) which leaves 4 O,6.45 E,7.4 T and we are gaining 2.5 Officers a year, the only one we are short on.
 
This Snakepit the description of our relations with the Cardassians went from "Major Conflict Avoided" (2311 Snakepit) to "High Tension Levels" (2312 Snakepit).

Look at how they freaked out when we tried to take the Bajorans from them. I am genuinely worried about what they would do if we managed to grab the Dawiar. Maybe see if we can reduce those tension levels somehow, or at least let matters rest for a year.
Yeah. I think we should at least try to take a year or two improving our position with respect to the Sydraxians, making sure we have a grip on the anti-Syndicate campaign, and stopping the Apiata from touching off Galaxy War One, before we change the status quo with respect to the Dawiar.

At the moment, the evidence suggests that the Dawiar are an instrument that is very likely to break in the Cardassians' hands if they try to use it forcefully. That's good enough for me.

Worst case, we'll make sure that the opening phase of our war mobilization plans would involve concentrating ships somewhere near enough to Dawiar space to intervene if they go on the offensive, just like my Plan Epsilon-1 did during Grey October. And if the Dawiar don't launch an immediate attack, we'll try to use diplomacy (and if necessary some healthy bribes ;) ) to make sure they don't jump us later.

EDIT:

Maybe I should draft a revised "in case of Cardassian attack, break glass" mobilization plan based on Epsilon-1, updated for our current deployment situation. Call it... Epsilon-2. Some time when I have a few hours to kill.
 
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