To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)

Shard · Jan 13, 2017

I'd certainly like some clarification on the effect of overcrewing the Stargazer.

AlphaDelta · Jan 13, 2017

Shard said:
I'd certainly like some clarification on the effect of overcrewing the Stargazer.

Well, the Doctor is nice, but I would prefer to have more than an EMH.

Also, I'm not sure if the tech exists yet.

I think .75 enlisted and .75 techs should be enough.

Derek58 · Jan 13, 2017

AlphaDelta said:
Well, the Doctor is nice, but I would prefer to have more than an EMH.

Also, I'm not sure if the tech exists yet.

Not even close.

I don't think Zimmerman, the creator of the EMH, is born yet.

Edit: Ah yep, he's not born until 2320.

And he's born in NJ, my state!

OneirosTheWriter · Jan 13, 2017

I think it may be best to let the vote simply determine whether to send a ship, and then we can have a vote on what assets to send with them in a game-month's time.

Mr Tebbs · Jan 13, 2017

Derek58 said:
No. of Votes: 1
Void Stalker

@Void Stalker is a separate vote b/c of a typo... so overcrewed Stargazer has it by one (as of last vote count)

edit, although that is a simple plurality, not a majority so....

Gear · Jan 13, 2017

lbmaian said:
I believe @Gear made a very convincing argument that in the actual world of Star Trek, and not through our outside lens of TV and movies, it would be the Excelsior that best captures the imagination of the Federation and its neighbors. It's not the Constitutions that helped expand the Federation or was a first contact's first view of a Starfleet vessel - it was the Excelsiors. Someone else could expand on this far more eloquently that I can.

We all know that there is number compression in this game to keep it manageable. I've always imagined it to be a ratio of 4 to 1, where every ship we have is really 4 in canon. We know that the Federation built some 120-ish Excelsiors, and it looks like we'll end up with about 30-ish of them. At 4 to 1, it matches up pretty well.

This means that their were actually 16 members of the Federation at game start, but due to Compression, only the founders were important enough to be mentioned. This also means, that if we had started this game in Kirk's time, we would only have had about 4, maybe 5 Connies total, including both Enterprises, because of compression. In Canon, only 12 to 20 were ever built.

And while the Connie's are important, they just never had the numbers to make enough impact on the Federation as a whole to avoid being replaced by the far more prolific Excelsiors. Barring Kirk and Enterprise, of course. But even Kirk can't carry the Connie to being the most popular ship on his own.

It's a numbers game really. The Constitution was important and legendary to dozens of species, while the Excelsior will be that to hundreds. Maybe even thousands, as since the Excelsior is such a numerous, sturdy, and long lasting design, all of these species are going to see it in action for far longer than the Connies were.

Derek58 · Jan 13, 2017

OneirosTheWriter said:
I think it may be best to let the vote simply determine whether to send a ship, and then we can have a vote on what assets to send with them in a game-month's time.

That sounds like the best way to do it, yea.

aeqnai · Jan 13, 2017

OneirosTheWriter said:
I think it may be best to let the vote simply determine whether to send a ship, and then we can have a vote on what assets to send with them in a game-month's time.

In which case...

Vote Tally : Sci-Fi - To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest) | Page 917 | Sufficient Velocity
##### NetTally 1.7.5

Task: KADESH

[x][KADESH] Pick a ship to send along with the Kadesh: USS Stargazer
No. of Votes: 48

[X][KADESH] Pick a ship to send along with the Kadesh: USS Cheron
No. of Votes: 2

Plan: ◈Extra Light-Year (Cheron flavored)
fasquardon
Mr Tebbs

[x][KADESH] Pick a ship to send along with the Kadesh: USS Odyssey
No. of Votes: 2

SynchronizedWritersBlock
Ato

[X][KADESH] Tell the Council it can't be done
No. of Votes: 1

Random Member

Total No. of Voters: 53

Mr Tebbs · Jan 13, 2017

Gear said:
-snip- reasonable argument

damn you and your logic, I hate taking off my rose tinted glasses

buuut since i got lasik almost a year ago i guess i have to

[X][KADESH] Send the Stargazer and overcrew her. Add two extra units of every type of Explorer Corps crew, working to allow them to rotate living on the Pride of Kadesh. There's no replacement for casualties out in space, and it's inevitable that some crew will be lost or want to stay with the Kadesh at trip's end. This will give them the resources to make it home.

Vehrec · Jan 13, 2017

Shard said:
I'd certainly like some clarification on the effect of overcrewing the Stargazer.

The thought seems to be that on the long mission, events may occur which reduce the crew and damage the ship, and while damage can be repaired en-route to some extent, crew losses are not easily replaced. Hence the desire to give extra crew, officers, and techs, because the ship may need replacements, even if said replacements will be somewhat vulnerable. On the other hand, there are events which can destroy a ship all in one go, in which case having sent all that extra crew along is rather silly. Or the dice may like us, and we get no such events at all. Or in the event the Stargazer is damaged, we may have the chance to recall it instead of sending it on to it's doom. It's hard to say what will happen exactly.

Mr Tebbs · Jan 13, 2017

we've only had 2 events that ate a ship that weren't part of a crisis in the entire quest. Assuming the ship we send will survive but the crew may not seems to be a fairly safe assumption

Simon_Jester · Jan 13, 2017

One possible advantage of overcrewing the ship is that if we manage to, say, locate some alien derelict with interesting technology that can be refurbished into working condition, we'll have enough people to provide a "prize crew" to operate it.

Also, the surplus Starfleet personnel can serve as trainers and advisors for the Kadeshi themselves, because they won't be so busy just operating their own ship. That way we can help teach the Kadeshi skills that they lack but will need for their journey. Things like first contact protocols, deep space navigation, and how to make creative use of (or avoid) the various subspecies of Spatio-Temporal Whozit that you get in Star Trek.

lbmaian said:
I believe @Gear made a very convincing argument that in the actual world of Star Trek, and not through our outside lens of TV and movies, it would be the Excelsior that best captures the imagination of the Federation and its neighbors. It's not the Constitutions that helped expand the Federation or was a first contact's first view of a Starfleet vessel - it was the Excelsiors. Someone else could expand on this far more eloquently that I can.

Wasn't he the one who thought Excelsiors should get a free +1 Presence just from being Excelsiors? Not sure I buy that.

I mean, don't get me wrong, the arguments for sending an Excelsior in favor of the older, more battered, smaller Cheron are pretty darn compelling. But the "sing paeans of praise" mindset can be taken too far.

To be pedantic, such a colony would remain in contact with the Federation, since the update did say we would remain in contact with the ship we sent. So we should also be able to remain in contact with the Kadeshi, although it would be more like ~~email~~ snail mail rather than telephone.

There's more to "in contact" than "in communication." It's not like we can touch them, in the sense of maintaining a supply line or being able to do anything for them if they run into an emergency. Furthermore, communications at that distance are likely to be unreliable as well as slow.

I have a haunting suspicion that if we tried to found a colony that far out into space, some day we'd lose all touch with them for a little while, and then we'd get nothing. Eventually, one of our explorers would go to the site of the colony and find everyone gone, and no sign of what happened except the words CROATOAN carved into a nearby tree or some such.

aeqnai · Jan 13, 2017

Simon_Jester said:
I have a haunting suspicion that if we tried to found a colony that far out into space, some day we'd lose all touch with them for a little while, and then we'd get nothing. Eventually, one of our explorers would go to the site of the colony and find everyone gone, and no sign of what happened except the words CROATOAN carved into a nearby tree or some such.

Or this:

Vehrec · Jan 13, 2017

Mr Tebbs said:
we've only had 2 events that ate a ship that weren't part of a crisis in the entire quest. Assuming the ship we send will survive but the crew may not seems to be a fairly safe assumption

Yeah, but how many events have we had that ate crew? How do we know there won't be unique events that have them recruiting replacement crew from the friends they make along the way? This is gonna be a weird trip, which may or may not have special or unique custom events. And we've had more than two ship eating events-they're just not always OUR ships. I seem to recall that we lost a Soyuz to some failure, the Caitians lost a Swarmer, we lost that one Miranda (Lion?) and just recently Miracht. That's four eaten-ships off the top of my head.

Mr Tebbs · Jan 13, 2017

Simon_Jester said:
Things like first contact protocols, deep space navigation, and how to make creative use of (or avoid) the various subspecies of Spatio-Temporal Whozit that you get in Star Trek.

by watching our people poke the ever-loving hell out of it with a stick, thereby seeing what not to do?

UbeOne · Jan 13, 2017

To boldly poke what is not supposed to be poked.

AKuz · Jan 13, 2017

[x][KADESH] Pick a ship to send along with the Kadesh: USS Stargazer

Nervos Belli · Jan 13, 2017

Now there's a good reason to send Nash along. Have her give another presentation on Touching Things: Why not to do it.

OneirosTheWriter · Jan 13, 2017

Okay, I'm calling the vote now. I kind of needed to get this bedded down first to see if I needed to alter the ships I was rolling against for this turn's Captain's Log events. Happy to have the Kadesh start their journey across Federation space now and have Stargazer catch up to them after they prep the ship. You'll still be able to catch them after all.

lbmaian · Jan 13, 2017

Look, I do think there are good mechanical reasons for overcrewing and that it wouldn't cost us much (2/2/2 of EC crew is the equivalent of 12.5pp). But think also about the narrative reasons.

This Kadeshi journey is a once in a lifetime dream opportunity for Starfleet's prized explorers. I'd expect our explorer corps to be scrambling for any way to get a billet on this journey, and I'd bet there is a huge spike in crew transfers going on right now. I would love to allow more of these dedicated people to find their way onto this voyage to satisfy their dreams. I'm sure they'll find some way to find themselves useful even if they're not directly crewing the Stargazer.

Simon_Jester said:
Wasn't he the one who thought Excelsiors should get a free +1 Presence just from being Excelsiors? Not sure I buy that.

I mean, don't get me wrong, the arguments for sending an Excelsior in favor of the older, more battered, smaller Cheron are pretty darn compelling. But the "sing paeans of praise" mindset can be taken too far.

Well sure, I also think +1 presence idea is going to far, but that's separate (even different type of logic) from the idea of Excelsiors being more iconic than the Constitutions.

There's more to "in contact" than "in communication." It's not like we can touch them, in the sense of maintaining a supply line or being able to do anything for them if they run into an emergency. Furthermore, communications at that distance are likely to be unreliable as well as slow.

I have a haunting suspicion that if we tried to found a colony that far out into space, some day we'd lose all touch with them for a little while, and then we'd get nothing. Eventually, one of our explorers would go to the site of the colony and find everyone gone, and no sign of what happened except the words CROATOAN carved into a nearby tree or some such.

I'd actually expect such a colony to be subsumed by the "natives", the Kadeshi. They'll be spending so much time with the Kadeshi instead of the rest of the Federation, and their children will practically be growing up in Kadeshi culture, that they'll start integrating themselves with Kadeshi rather than the other way around. 20 years is a long time.

Vehrec said:
I seem to recall that we lost a Soyuz to some failure

It actually wasn't lost. It was more a "ship had trouble yet was saved but we think it'll happen again soon" situation. We then had to decide whether to "repair" all the ships or just scrap them:

OneirosTheWriter said:
Shipyard Operations - Soyuz Class Report

The opinion of Shipyard Operations is that the 10br, 20sr replacement of warp cores per Soyuz-class is a wasteful use of resources. The Soyuz have served valiantly, but it is time to scrap them. However, we recognise that in this crisis, having every hull available is important.

[ ][SZ] Scrap the Soyuz-class
[ ][SZ] Repair the Soyuz-class [Total of 40br 80sr]

edit: typos

AlphaDelta · Jan 14, 2017

OneirosTheWriter said:
There still seems to be debate on exact approaches, so I'll leave the vote open for the moment.

Let's talk about some (hopefully) less controversial topics.

According to the vote, the majority would like to send a ship, specifically an Explorer Corps ship staffed with an all-volunteer crew.

Now, we can make some assumptions about anyone going on said journey: they are vetted by a similar process as the regular EC, if not more rigorous.

Since we can we reasonably sure that anyone we send will be competent and psychologically sound, we can bring (almost) anyone useful. Within Starfleet and the Federation as a whole, there's probably enough of whoever we want to send along to allow us to fill whatever needs there are.

Given the high publicity of this venture, we should send a public relations team, and perhaps a couple people for Propaganda from Intel. The PR team is for the Federation, with Propaganda for everyone else.

In addition, since there's a high likelihood of encountering new civilizations, we should send a Diplomacy team.

Actually, let's have Linderly create a new Intel office for this mission. At the very least, SigInt will be needed, and maybe a small analysis section.

A selection of scientists will also be needed to deal with Anomalies and general research.

That's all I can think of for now.

Goat · Jan 14, 2017

Star Fleet should already have crewing and consumable plans in at least rough draft - after all they knew it was possible for months, and it has been the talk of the office.

We don't need to tell them to include more scientist/intel etc, they should already have their plans and recommendations lined up and they should know what the right procedures, force levels, etc are.

Maybe those plans include an new intel office, but they probably don't. If they don't then the forces in charge of Intel feel it is not required.

kyuden · Jan 14, 2017

[X][KADESH] Send the Stargazer and overcrew her.

Simon_Jester · Jan 14, 2017

I would be careful of sending 'only the best' of the already-elite Explorer Corps. More on that below.

Mr Tebbs said:
by watching our people poke the ever-loving hell out of it with a stick, thereby seeing what not to do?

In practice, okay sometimes yes. On the other hand, that's what the RSPS handbook is supposed to be for. Not that every captain reads it, since it stubbornly remains an unofficial publication, but they keep trying.

lbmaian said:
Look, I do think there are good mechanical reasons for overcrewing and that it wouldn't cost us much (2/2/2 of EC crew is the equivalent of 12.5pp). But think also about the narrative reasons.

This Kadeshi journey is a once in a lifetime dream opportunity for Starfleet's prized explorers. I'd expect our explorer corps to be scrambling for any way to get a billet on this journey, and I'd bet there is a huge spike in crew transfers going on right now. I would love to allow more of these dedicated people to find their way onto this voyage to satisfy their dreams. I'm sure they'll find some way to find themselves useful even if they're not directly crewing the Stargazer.

Agreed, though we want to be careful not to draw the cream off the top of the Explorer Corps by sending a disproportionate share of its most highly qualified off with the Kadeshi, and leaving a lower grade behind.

This is a common problem with trying to recruit elite forces from within a larger organization. The most exceptional individuals, often those who are most qualified to provide natural leadership for their fellows, tend to join the elite group. That makes for a high-performing elite group, but it also leaves the "rank and file" with fewer good natural leaders and exemplars. There can come a point at which the increased performance of the elite isn't worth it, because it comes at the price of mediocre performance from everyone else.

Starfleet is fortunate that this doesn't seem to have hurt it too badly in the process of founding the Explorer Corps. But I would advise against taking the principle too far. We don't want to take a risk of 'hollowing out' the Explorer Corps.

So if we have too many Explorer Corps applicants trying to change ships, we might want to select randomly, rather than just taking the top. Or select on the basis of who's got the fewest family ties in Federation space. Anyone in the Explorer Corps is fully competent to do the job of exploration, by definition. Being picky beyond that level is arguably a mistake.

I'd actually expect such a colony to be subsumed by the "natives", the Kadeshi. They'll be spending so much time with the Kadeshi instead of the rest of the Federation, and their children will practically be growing up in Kadeshi culture, that they'll start integrating themselves with Kadeshi rather than the other way around. 20 years is a long time.

It's plausible, but on the other hand we don't really know how biologically and psychologically compatible various Federation member species are with the Kadeshi. Even within the Federation there are some combinations that probably wouldn't work so well for joint colonization programskl

Plus, with colonies you have concerns like reproductively viable populations. For a colony of Andorians that's only a week's warp drive travel from Andoria, that isn't a problem, because more Andorians will be constantly arriving to replenish the population and diversify the gene pool. For a colony that's several years' travel from home, it's a much more serious issue.

The Kadeshi form a viable population- we hope. But if we put a thousand humans, a thousand Tellarites, and so on aboard a colony ship... they won't be.

Random Member · Jan 14, 2017

@OneirosTheWriter I'm not sure this has been mentioned already, but where exactly does the Kadeshi's new homeworld lie? Corewards, I assume? Is it still in the Alpha or Beta quadrants? Close to the Gamma or, God forbid, the Delta quadrant?

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