I don't think the Turtle ship would be a good fit for the Explorer Corps right now. They aren't used to the level of risk that the Explorer Corps faces and I believe that their presence would be a liability for the mission and a distraction for the crew. I'd say have them shadow a non EC Excelsior such as the Endurance or the Excelsior.
To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)
- Thread starter OneirosTheWriter
- Start date
- Sci-Fi
-
- Tags
- star trek exploration fully automated luxury gay space communism top level canon (canon) #hashtagcontent all-encompassing space amoeba cardassian boy bands cardassian magical girls darkest bureaucracy debate makes the qm cackle like palpatine hoh is an empire quest it has to be foreign infiltrators more ships ship happens singers delenda est starfleet this is not an empire quest ur waifu is collective?
Even though in some way it would make me feel More Safe to have one of our Explorer Corps ships covered by a turtleship, I think that's a bad idea. First Contacts and deep-space contacts are delicate enough without cultural miscommunications getting in the way.
Instead I think we should have the turtleship either accompany a vessel in the zones bordering the Orion Union (so they can respond to Syndicate events) or a borderzone (so they can get a taste of a 5YM or be a Big Hammer on problems).
Just eyeballing it, if we wanted a Union-bordering zone -- maybe Ferasa sector?
Instead I think we should have the turtleship either accompany a vessel in the zones bordering the Orion Union (so they can respond to Syndicate events) or a borderzone (so they can get a taste of a 5YM or be a Big Hammer on problems).
Just eyeballing it, if we wanted a Union-bordering zone -- maybe Ferasa sector?
- Location
- Austin, TX
[X][VULCAN] 2x1000kt
[X][BETA] Swarm
[X][AMARKI] Loan the berth to United Earth for a 2nd Excelsior
[X][RIGEL] Assign to follow Explorer Corps
[X][BETA] Swarm
[X][AMARKI] Loan the berth to United Earth for a 2nd Excelsior
[X][RIGEL] Assign to follow Explorer Corps
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Two years from now, they may feel a stronger desire to build another ship, and not have time for the upgrade.
Plus, I'm concerned about wartime availability of member world explorer berths for repairs.
If we don't attack Cardassia over Bajor right now, and it doesn't sound like we will...
Then I honestly think we're more likely to wind up at war 5-6 years from now (when the Amarki would notionally be busy upgrading that berth after building a second UESPA explorer) than we are to wind up at war 1-2 years from now.
If they build a ship now, and upgrade the berth later, it may be impossible to use it for any purpose during the upgrade. I feel like we're better off having the Amarki upgrade the berth now, and then be in a position to bump or hopefully rush completion on whatever ship is in it to clear the space for repairs.
Endurance would be a great choice in that case; Chekov is even more experienced than Saavik.
However, if so, vote accordingly- you want to build some bandwagon support for your ideas.
Me, I'm not convinced yet, so I'm not going to change my vote... but I encourage you to try and start momentum for your own ideas.
[X][VULCAN] 2x1000kt
[X][BETA] Combined Arms
[X][AMARKI] Loan the berth to United Earth for a 2nd Excelsior
[X][RIGEL] Assign to follow USS Cheron
Again, a two year upgrade from 2.5 to 3mt is utterly pointless to do now. Even if we started the upgrade while the Ambassador prototype was being built it would still finish before the Ambassador is ready for production.
Cheat and get them to follow the Lexington
Actually, that might not even be a joke. Seems a kind of Admiral Sulu move.
A good ship would be the Kumari though. She has a capable history and is stationed in the CBZ which should expect a wide variety of events. Another option is the Cheron, which is our non-EC ace by far, and will demonstrate to the Rigellians how the best of the best do their thing. I'm voting for the Cheron personally. e: Some have suggested the Endurance, our SBZ flagship, which is good.
The explorer corps idea, eh, maybe. I can see it going wrong. The Turtleship is only a cruiser, and following the EC they may end up with a different view of Starfleet than what will be normal for the Rigellian fleet.
[X][BETA] Combined Arms
[X][AMARKI] Loan the berth to United Earth for a 2nd Excelsior
[X][RIGEL] Assign to follow USS Cheron
Again, a two year upgrade from 2.5 to 3mt is utterly pointless to do now. Even if we started the upgrade while the Ambassador prototype was being built it would still finish before the Ambassador is ready for production.
Cheat and get them to follow the Lexington
Actually, that might not even be a joke. Seems a kind of Admiral Sulu move.
A good ship would be the Kumari though. She has a capable history and is stationed in the CBZ which should expect a wide variety of events. Another option is the Cheron, which is our non-EC ace by far, and will demonstrate to the Rigellians how the best of the best do their thing. I'm voting for the Cheron personally. e: Some have suggested the Endurance, our SBZ flagship, which is good.
The explorer corps idea, eh, maybe. I can see it going wrong. The Turtleship is only a cruiser, and following the EC they may end up with a different view of Starfleet than what will be normal for the Rigellian fleet.
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- Location
- Nova Scotia, Canada
[X][VULCAN] 2x1000kt
[X][BETA] Swarm
[X][AMARKI] Loan the berth to United Earth for a 2nd Excelsior
[X][RIGEL] Assign to follow USS Endurance
I think sending it with the Endurance will be useful as we can always use another ship in the SBZ but still safe as it will be paired with one of our garrison Excelsiors. Sending it with an explorer has too much of a chance for it to be damaged of lost.
[X][BETA] Swarm
[X][AMARKI] Loan the berth to United Earth for a 2nd Excelsior
[X][RIGEL] Assign to follow USS Endurance
I think sending it with the Endurance will be useful as we can always use another ship in the SBZ but still safe as it will be paired with one of our garrison Excelsiors. Sending it with an explorer has too much of a chance for it to be damaged of lost.
- Location
- Patriarchova
[X][VULCAN] 2x1000kt
[X][BETA] Combined Arms
[X][AMARKI] Spend two years upgrading it to a 3mt berth
[X][RIGEL] Assign to follow Explorer Corps
INFINITE DIVERSITY. INFINITE COMBINATIONS.
[X][BETA] Combined Arms
[X][AMARKI] Spend two years upgrading it to a 3mt berth
[X][RIGEL] Assign to follow Explorer Corps
INFINITE DIVERSITY. INFINITE COMBINATIONS.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
EDIT:
Part of the reason I'm advocating having the Amarki upgrade their berth is that at the moment, NO member world owns any berth large enough to accomodate an Ambassador.
This interlude of "down time" for the Amarki Arsenal seems like an ideal time for them to upgrade their infrastructure to cope with future developments.
Sure, we could convince them to use the time to accelerate construction of another explorer for another member world, assuming United Earth will actually be able to crew the new ship (I'm tempted to call her Égalité as per @AKuz). But ultimately, I think the collective need to have that explorer two years (or even four years, or six) sooner is less than the need to have at least one three-megaton berth in member world hands.
If I were confident that anyone was going to be doing those berth upgrades "later," as in a few years from now but still before we have the Ambassadors coming out, I would not be so concerned. But you don't normally see explorer-sized berths going empty for long, so I'm not so confident about that. I'd rather have the infrastructure ready now and know the problem is dealt with.
[EDIT ENDS]
Actually, I'd somehow gotten the idea that turtleships were explorers or at least 'pocket explorers.' The reality is, now that I look at the statline, they're more like an up-armored Jaldun.
Now, if they go with the Explorer Corps, I suspect that nothing would go too badly wrong and endanger the turtleship, or if it did, then the same threat would be a severe danger to the equally durable Excelsior...
Still, that's a valid point. Turtleships don't have the Combat/Science/Presence/Defense stats to really 'hang' with an Explorer Corps Excelsior.
And Cheron or Kumari along with Endurance would definitely be good choices.
I am now more seriously thinking of changing my vote. What do other people think?
Part of the reason I'm advocating having the Amarki upgrade their berth is that at the moment, NO member world owns any berth large enough to accomodate an Ambassador.
This interlude of "down time" for the Amarki Arsenal seems like an ideal time for them to upgrade their infrastructure to cope with future developments.
Sure, we could convince them to use the time to accelerate construction of another explorer for another member world, assuming United Earth will actually be able to crew the new ship (I'm tempted to call her Égalité as per @AKuz). But ultimately, I think the collective need to have that explorer two years (or even four years, or six) sooner is less than the need to have at least one three-megaton berth in member world hands.
If I were confident that anyone was going to be doing those berth upgrades "later," as in a few years from now but still before we have the Ambassadors coming out, I would not be so concerned. But you don't normally see explorer-sized berths going empty for long, so I'm not so confident about that. I'd rather have the infrastructure ready now and know the problem is dealt with.
[EDIT ENDS]
[blinks]
Actually, I'd somehow gotten the idea that turtleships were explorers or at least 'pocket explorers.' The reality is, now that I look at the statline, they're more like an up-armored Jaldun.
Now, if they go with the Explorer Corps, I suspect that nothing would go too badly wrong and endanger the turtleship, or if it did, then the same threat would be a severe danger to the equally durable Excelsior...
Still, that's a valid point. Turtleships don't have the Combat/Science/Presence/Defense stats to really 'hang' with an Explorer Corps Excelsior.
And Cheron or Kumari along with Endurance would definitely be good choices.
I am now more seriously thinking of changing my vote. What do other people think?
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- Location
- Australia
That's right
- Location
- Someplace USA
would we benefit from stealing their notes after they have done research?
lbmaian
a thirsty squirrel
- Location
- USA
@OneirosTheWriter, honestly, I don't think we have enough visibility, or at least a summary of such, to be able to determine whether member worlds need to increasing shipping or cargo or other civilian needs.
We also don't have all the member fleet ship designs, like Rigellian and Betazoid and Caitian ship design crew costs, so I have no idea whether they need to increase crew income.
For example, Rigel wants to improve tech recruitment, but they already have relatively high tech income. Do there ships require a lot of tech crew? We can't tell. If they were building ships with similar costs to Starfleet designs, then I'd suggest increasing officer income instead.
There's just not enough information to make useful suggestions except when something looks obviously wrong.
We also don't have all the member fleet ship designs, like Rigellian and Betazoid and Caitian ship design crew costs, so I have no idea whether they need to increase crew income.
For example, Rigel wants to improve tech recruitment, but they already have relatively high tech income. Do there ships require a lot of tech crew? We can't tell. If they were building ships with similar costs to Starfleet designs, then I'd suggest increasing officer income instead.
There's just not enough information to make useful suggestions except when something looks obviously wrong.
Thebigpieman
I've got this, I think.
- Location
- United States
[X][VULCAN] 2x1000kt
[X][BETA] Combined Arms
[X][AMARKI] Loan the berth to United Earth for a 2nd Excelsior
[X][RIGEL] Assign to follow USS Cheron
[X][BETA] Combined Arms
[X][AMARKI] Loan the berth to United Earth for a 2nd Excelsior
[X][RIGEL] Assign to follow USS Cheron
- Location
- Central Standard Time
I agree with Simon on the Berth. We might as well get it over with.
And as for the Turtleship, I am for having it tail S'harien, or some other ship operating closer to the new civs. They have the hull and shield to survive.
[X][VULCAN] 2x1000kt
[X][BETA] Combined Arms
[X][AMARKI] Spend two years upgrading it to a 3mt berth
[X][RIGEL] Assign to follow Explorer Corps ship S'harien
AKuz
Been Better
- Location
- A Rising Tide of Horrors
- Pronouns
- She/Her
maybe we should encourage all member worlds to do combined doctrine while we do Lone Ranger. Because when they will be acalled up en masse, it will be during a time of crisis, and combined arms is bettter for fitting togather various untis than a more focused doctrine
- Location
- Patriarchova
My reasoning with the betazoids is that they don't have an Explorer sized vessel of their own to use with Lone Ranger, and they probably don't have the industrial capacity to make good use of Swarm Doctrine. They do, however, have an escort and a cruiser that are relatively close in capability, so Combined Arms makes sense.
Their cruisers are already high Presence.
Their cruisers are already high Presence.
[X][VULCAN] 2x1000kt
Even if we end up designing a new cruiser, and bigger then 1mt, in the late 2020s the Vulcans probably wouldn't even start producing it until the 2030s and over the next two decades they'll get a lot more out of 2x 1mt shipyards then 1x 2mt shipyards. That's not even factoring in the benefits of higher production of cargo ships, escorts, medical ships, any the various other things under 1mt.
[X][BETA] Swarm
Right now the Betazoids have two cruisers, six escorts, and plan on building Centaur-As to fill out their fleet. Lone Ranger is just a terrible idea for them given their lack of any explorers, lack of shipyards capable of building explorers, tiny economy (smallest of all members), and tiny crew incomes (smallest of all members). Combined Arms isn't quite as terrible as Lone Ranger for them but it's still a poor fit given 4 out of 7 bonuses require Explorers. Swarm meanwhile fits them quite well since they benefit from every bonus.
[X][AMARKI] Spend two years upgrading it to a 3mt berth
Simon_Jester is completely right when they said Explorer grade berths are almost never empty. We're best off taking advantage of this lull to upgrade it to 3mt since who knows when the opportunity may come up again.
[X][RIGEL] Assign to follow USS Endurance
Sending a cruiser out on Explorer missions, especially with Explorers guaranteed to get events every quarter, is a terrible idea.
Even if we end up designing a new cruiser, and bigger then 1mt, in the late 2020s the Vulcans probably wouldn't even start producing it until the 2030s and over the next two decades they'll get a lot more out of 2x 1mt shipyards then 1x 2mt shipyards. That's not even factoring in the benefits of higher production of cargo ships, escorts, medical ships, any the various other things under 1mt.
[X][BETA] Swarm
Right now the Betazoids have two cruisers, six escorts, and plan on building Centaur-As to fill out their fleet. Lone Ranger is just a terrible idea for them given their lack of any explorers, lack of shipyards capable of building explorers, tiny economy (smallest of all members), and tiny crew incomes (smallest of all members). Combined Arms isn't quite as terrible as Lone Ranger for them but it's still a poor fit given 4 out of 7 bonuses require Explorers. Swarm meanwhile fits them quite well since they benefit from every bonus.
[X][AMARKI] Spend two years upgrading it to a 3mt berth
Simon_Jester is completely right when they said Explorer grade berths are almost never empty. We're best off taking advantage of this lull to upgrade it to 3mt since who knows when the opportunity may come up again.
[X][RIGEL] Assign to follow USS Endurance
Sending a cruiser out on Explorer missions, especially with Explorers guaranteed to get events every quarter, is a terrible idea.
lbmaian
a thirsty squirrel
- Location
- USA
Member World Priority:
Rigel's priorities don't make sense from my limited view of their ship designs and infrastructure. They want to build a 2nd Megatortoise. Supposing they followed Starfleet's old crew cost formulas, a Megatortoise would require O-6 E-9 T-4. That shows they badly need more officers and enlisted. Their other modern ships are S4 so it does make sense to increase tech crew income if the tech cost really was T-4. (This is why we need to know the actual crew costs of these ships.)
Regardless, what's more worrying is their 80br and 40sr income. For the amount of crew income they have, which is the highest of all the member fleets, that's too small. That's lower than the Humans with their 100br and 50sr income and the Rigellians have nearly twice the crew income!
So I'm going to suggest:
[X][PRIORITY] Rigel Mid-Term: Change from "Improve Tech Recruitment" to "Improve Budget"
Vulcan berths:
We don't plan on having any ship designs that can fit in 2mt berths that can't fit in 1mt berths for the next decade.
[X][VULCAN] 2x1000kt
Betazoid fleet doctrine:
They can't afford many explorers at their resource income (which is why they're getting a budget increase), so lone ranger is out. Their current fleet is just 2 cruisers and 6 escorts, and they're building more escorts rather than cruisers.
From a raw mechanical standpoint, I think they would benefit from Swarm doctrine the most, because much of combined fleet doctrine is about improving ship design...which isn't important if they're going to be adopting Starfleet ship designs, and Betazoids with their weak fleet is one member that I wouldn't mind too much adopting Starfleet ship designs. Though the Betazoid cruiser is decent for their primary purpose of a diplomacy vessel (C3 S2 H3 L3 P5 D3).
From a narrative standpoint, Betazoids could learn combined arms from Amarki (I think) or swarm doctrine from Caitians and eventually Apiata. Starfleet might be biased against swarm doctrine, but I've been pretty adamant about Starfleet not enforcing their opinion on doctrines on others.
I'm going to break with the popular vote on this one:
[X][BETA] Swarm
Amarki berth:
It's selfish to ask the Amarki to keep their berths open for our repair purposes, and with Patricia Chen, we actually have more virtual berth capacity to spare. Well, technically we plan to still fill up most of it with Miranda-A refits, but those are low priority and can be delayed as needed.
United Earth apparently wants a 2nd Excelsior next year? I suppose they could afford that, but don't they want to focus on (and save up for) Renaissance production? If they really want to request a 2nd Excelsior, our own berths will have room for such a build next year: Utopia Planitia 3mt-B berth. It would just involve delaying a refit, but as noted above, that's fine.
I'd rather Amarki spend their own time upgrading their own infrastructure. As a bonus, that might also get them thinking about their future 3mt explorer ship design.
[X][AMARKI] Spend two years upgrading it to a 3mt berth
Rigel limpet:
While having a Rigel ship shadow a newer EC ship for shared experience and protection sounds good, I'm worried that that turtleship may not be able to keep up. Aren't Rigellian ships known for being slow? The turtleship has D3, and while I know defense isn't all about speed, it's a good indicator of it. I'm worried this ship will just interfere with the FYM.
Assigning to another active yet impactful ship that isn't speeding about exploring sounds like a better idea. That limits it to garrison Excelsiors and the Cheron. The Cheron has been having a streak of success lately, and it might be a good idea to get Rigellians some experience with the anti-Syndicate effort.
[X][RIGEL] Assign to follow USS Cheron
Rigel's priorities don't make sense from my limited view of their ship designs and infrastructure. They want to build a 2nd Megatortoise. Supposing they followed Starfleet's old crew cost formulas, a Megatortoise would require O-6 E-9 T-4. That shows they badly need more officers and enlisted. Their other modern ships are S4 so it does make sense to increase tech crew income if the tech cost really was T-4. (This is why we need to know the actual crew costs of these ships.)
Regardless, what's more worrying is their 80br and 40sr income. For the amount of crew income they have, which is the highest of all the member fleets, that's too small. That's lower than the Humans with their 100br and 50sr income and the Rigellians have nearly twice the crew income!
So I'm going to suggest:
[X][PRIORITY] Rigel Mid-Term: Change from "Improve Tech Recruitment" to "Improve Budget"
Vulcan berths:
We don't plan on having any ship designs that can fit in 2mt berths that can't fit in 1mt berths for the next decade.
[X][VULCAN] 2x1000kt
Betazoid fleet doctrine:
They can't afford many explorers at their resource income (which is why they're getting a budget increase), so lone ranger is out. Their current fleet is just 2 cruisers and 6 escorts, and they're building more escorts rather than cruisers.
From a raw mechanical standpoint, I think they would benefit from Swarm doctrine the most, because much of combined fleet doctrine is about improving ship design...which isn't important if they're going to be adopting Starfleet ship designs, and Betazoids with their weak fleet is one member that I wouldn't mind too much adopting Starfleet ship designs. Though the Betazoid cruiser is decent for their primary purpose of a diplomacy vessel (C3 S2 H3 L3 P5 D3).
From a narrative standpoint, Betazoids could learn combined arms from Amarki (I think) or swarm doctrine from Caitians and eventually Apiata. Starfleet might be biased against swarm doctrine, but I've been pretty adamant about Starfleet not enforcing their opinion on doctrines on others.
I'm going to break with the popular vote on this one:
[X][BETA] Swarm
Amarki berth:
It's selfish to ask the Amarki to keep their berths open for our repair purposes, and with Patricia Chen, we actually have more virtual berth capacity to spare. Well, technically we plan to still fill up most of it with Miranda-A refits, but those are low priority and can be delayed as needed.
United Earth apparently wants a 2nd Excelsior next year? I suppose they could afford that, but don't they want to focus on (and save up for) Renaissance production? If they really want to request a 2nd Excelsior, our own berths will have room for such a build next year: Utopia Planitia 3mt-B berth. It would just involve delaying a refit, but as noted above, that's fine.
I'd rather Amarki spend their own time upgrading their own infrastructure. As a bonus, that might also get them thinking about their future 3mt explorer ship design.
[X][AMARKI] Spend two years upgrading it to a 3mt berth
Rigel limpet:
While having a Rigel ship shadow a newer EC ship for shared experience and protection sounds good, I'm worried that that turtleship may not be able to keep up. Aren't Rigellian ships known for being slow? The turtleship has D3, and while I know defense isn't all about speed, it's a good indicator of it. I'm worried this ship will just interfere with the FYM.
Assigning to another active yet impactful ship that isn't speeding about exploring sounds like a better idea. That limits it to garrison Excelsiors and the Cheron. The Cheron has been having a streak of success lately, and it might be a good idea to get Rigellians some experience with the anti-Syndicate effort.
[X][RIGEL] Assign to follow USS Cheron
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Random Member
Gardener of Human Happiness
- Location
- Behind You
[X][VULCAN] 2x1000kt
[X][BETA] Combined Arms
[X][AMARKI] Spend two years upgrading it to a 3mt berth
[X][RIGEL] Assign to follow USS Endurance
[X][BETA] Combined Arms
[X][AMARKI] Spend two years upgrading it to a 3mt berth
[X][RIGEL] Assign to follow USS Endurance
Last edited:
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Ah-HEM.
We shouldn't assume that the crew requirements for alien ships are built according to exactly the same rules as ours. It may well be that the Rigellians have special techs or techniques that let them build high Hull/Shield designs with reduced officer/enlisted cost.
If they think they can afford a Megatortoise, I'm not going to argue with them.
That said, THIS is a valid point.
I actually agree with you about this, my vote for Combined Arms was motivated by realism- I may prefer doctrines that favor smaller ships more, but Valentina Sousa is probably a Lone Ranger advocate, who'd try advising the Betazoids to build cruisers as mini-explorers and treat their escorts as mini-cruisers. Which would probably amount to Combined Arms.
However, the more I think about it, the more I feel like that's a stupid reason to vote. Changing that.
Cheron would be a good choice, but Endurance is I think the frontrunner, and the idea of Chekov being the one to show the Rigellians the ropes appeals to me. So changing my vote, but to Endurance.
[X][VULCAN] 2x1000kt
[X][BETA] Swarm
[X][AMARKI] Spend two years upgrading it to a 3mt berth
[X][RIGEL] Assign to follow USS Endurance
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