The thing is that if you look at the current structure of the Federation a lot of our homesectors can and do double as "borders" (for example the Sol Sector) so even a fleet "stuck" garrisoning them does actually do a lot of exploring (especially once we consider that a lot of the space inside our borders only seems to be minimally explored). And for the purpose of events and Co that often seems more than (close) enough. Hell, with us being able to specify what a homesystem is (in regards to singular fleets) we can easily station a large part of our fleet near the important borders without any problem. And so far we have only established borderzones in areas where we actually don't do that much exploring either since we know that we border an enemy...
To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)
- Thread starter OneirosTheWriter
- Start date
- Sci-Fi
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- Tags
- star trek exploration fully automated luxury gay space communism top level canon (canon) #hashtagcontent all-encompassing space amoeba cardassian boy bands cardassian magical girls darkest bureaucracy debate makes the qm cackle like palpatine hoh is an empire quest it has to be foreign infiltrators more ships ship happens singers delenda est starfleet this is not an empire quest ur waifu is collective?
The thing is that if you look at the current structure of the Federation a lot of our homesectors can and do double as "borders" (for example the Sol Sector) so even a fleet "stuck" garrisoning them does actually do a lot of exploring (especially once we consider that a lot of the space inside our borders only seems to be minimally explored). And for the purpose of events and Co that often seems more than (close) enough. Hell, with us being able to specify what a homesystem is (in regards to singular fleets) we can easily station a large part of our fleet near the important borders without any problem. And so far we have only established borderzones in areas where we actually don't do that much exploring either since we know that we border an enemy...
- Location
- Terror Australis
As has been pointed out multiple times, THAT IS NOT WHAT FLEET IN BEING DOES. There is quite a bit of only lightly explored space inside our nominal territory. Both doctrines have parts that emphasize exploration, they just ephasize different approaches.
And in addition we want to have ships covering everywhere with both doctrines. Not having fleet coverage is how we lose assets and worlds to negative space wedgies.
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My take is that, in this quest, setting themes and fluff elements take priority over raw mechanics. Oneiros set up the game rules to encourage/support the narrative elements. If push comes to shove, mechanics will get changed to fit the setting, not the other way around. Forward Defense and Fleet in Being are primarily intended as thematic choices, and Oneiros can change their mechanical benefits at any time. I fully expect the comparative event rates to be normalized.
@OneirosTheWriter, just to get a firm ruling, can you confirm that both doctrines are meant to be mechanically equal?
@sebsmith, your theoretical example is a blatant attempt at minmaxing, and Oneiros would be fully justified in vetoing it and anything like it out of hand. Oneiros will only accept ships that he think would make sense and fulfill a sensible role, and yours does not. The ship design system is only meant to show what is theoretically possible, and does nothing to demonstrate practical concerns or replicate design conventions. No Starfleet engineer would ever seriously consider such a design, and anybody that tried to push it would be drummed out of service is short order.
@OneirosTheWriter, just to get a firm ruling, can you confirm that both doctrines are meant to be mechanically equal?
@sebsmith, your theoretical example is a blatant attempt at minmaxing, and Oneiros would be fully justified in vetoing it and anything like it out of hand. Oneiros will only accept ships that he think would make sense and fulfill a sensible role, and yours does not. The ship design system is only meant to show what is theoretically possible, and does nothing to demonstrate practical concerns or replicate design conventions. No Starfleet engineer would ever seriously consider such a design, and anybody that tried to push it would be drummed out of service is short order.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
By the way, I like the idea of retconning that the foundation of the Federation wasn't actually until the early 2200s in this timeline. I may even try to expand on it a bit.
Well see, my thing is that I want to do what Starfleet does, while being smarter about it. I love the idea of far-ranging explorations and of Starfleet justifying its existence by going places that really are "where no one has gone before," where the member world fleets wouldn't go in the normal course of doing business.
I mean, I'm sure the United Earth ships fly around Earth's immediate neighborhood, and do a bit of survey and mapping work in their immediate neighborhood. If they had twice as many ships (due to withdrawing their commitment to Starfleet) they'd probably do more. But they wouldn't have thought to go all the way out past Amarki space to find out about the Cardassian Union. And Cardassia would be a subtle, building threat that was totally off their radar.
EDIT: What I mean is, deep space exploration is Starfleet's main answer to the question "what do you do that the member worlds wouldn't or couldn't?" It's the real continuing mission. This is not to say that further 'deep' exploration of the heart of Federation space isn't called for, but it's less of what Starfleet is 'about.'
Well see, my thing is that I want to do what Starfleet does, while being smarter about it. I love the idea of far-ranging explorations and of Starfleet justifying its existence by going places that really are "where no one has gone before," where the member world fleets wouldn't go in the normal course of doing business.
I mean, I'm sure the United Earth ships fly around Earth's immediate neighborhood, and do a bit of survey and mapping work in their immediate neighborhood. If they had twice as many ships (due to withdrawing their commitment to Starfleet) they'd probably do more. But they wouldn't have thought to go all the way out past Amarki space to find out about the Cardassian Union. And Cardassia would be a subtle, building threat that was totally off their radar.
EDIT: What I mean is, deep space exploration is Starfleet's main answer to the question "what do you do that the member worlds wouldn't or couldn't?" It's the real continuing mission. This is not to say that further 'deep' exploration of the heart of Federation space isn't called for, but it's less of what Starfleet is 'about.'
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AKuz
Been Better
- Location
- A Rising Tide of Horrors
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I don't think there is much point in worrying about explaining why the Federation in TBG is so small.
I always saw it as a... stylization, a small streamlining for gameplay purposes. For Narrative purposes, the Federation in TBG is the same one as in Canon otherwise we have nothing to work with, the ripples are too huge. We start worrying "Did Kirk actually have a mission like TOS?" "Did Wrath of Khan or indeed any of the Movies happened?" And then we get lodged in recursive navel gazing that will bury the plot in inanity.
It's easiest to just sorta mentally shrug your shoulders in the same way as when writers massively fuck up a sense of scale.
I consider it to be the same Federation if viewed from the outside. If someone from, say, canon TNG were to slide on over into the TBG Timeline they'd go "Oh that makes sense" because up until the appointment of Kahurangi the timeliness are the exact same.
I always saw it as a... stylization, a small streamlining for gameplay purposes. For Narrative purposes, the Federation in TBG is the same one as in Canon otherwise we have nothing to work with, the ripples are too huge. We start worrying "Did Kirk actually have a mission like TOS?" "Did Wrath of Khan or indeed any of the Movies happened?" And then we get lodged in recursive navel gazing that will bury the plot in inanity.
It's easiest to just sorta mentally shrug your shoulders in the same way as when writers massively fuck up a sense of scale.
I consider it to be the same Federation if viewed from the outside. If someone from, say, canon TNG were to slide on over into the TBG Timeline they'd go "Oh that makes sense" because up until the appointment of Kahurangi the timeliness are the exact same.
- Location
- somewhere
I don't really see why the original founding date couldn't be kept. The Federation as we know know it might have developed over the course of the 23rd century out of something much looser. Maybe the Rigellians and Caitians were even what was then considered full members, before the 4 founding species decided to pursue further integration, the Caitians and Rigellians decided to keep their current status instead and that status was redefined as affiliate membership.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Honestly, that may be more reasonable than one might think; all one has to assume is that Kirk and the crew of Enterprise buried the whole incident with Khan hard, with tacit support from the Admiralty. Can you imagine the political shitstorm that would have ensued if an old Earth dictator straight out of the history books had hit the limelight, particularly after trying to hijack a then-modern starship? Kirk, Starfleet and United Earth all stood to be hideously embarrassed if that became public knowledge.
And after fifteen years, well, details slip the mind.
- Location
- Patriarchova
- Pronouns
- He/Him
True, but when have politicians ever been reasonable?
My assumption is that it was just deeply classified, in the same way you'd deeply classify finding Hitler again. Too much of a chance for them to become a lightning rod for all sorts of untowards movements.
As part of this, I think they straight deleted the existence of the planet or altered data about it, explaining the confusion in WOK
lbmaian
a thirsty squirrel
- Location
- USA
I'm not going to complain much if it's not explainable or left mysterious, but it's always fun to speculate on possible reasons on how the 2300 status quo of the Federation developed.
If you read Leila Hann's recent omakes, we do have a good possible narrative for the lack of member ratifications of pre-24th century affiliates until now.
The problem is that the lack of knowledge of our surrounding space, and inferred lack of exploration or simply talking to our neighbors and migrants about what the heck is out there, doesn't jive with a 150 year old Federation. Especially one with a main centralized military force which "principal functions were the advancement of Federation knowledge about the galaxy, the advancement of Federation knowledge of science and technology, and the defense of the Federation."
A Federation that was created in the 23rd century would help explain that, since it forces the events of canon 22nd century and 2rd century to be crammed into an action-packed single century, where the young Federation is fighting to establish itself amidst Romulan and Klingon aggression and other threats.
I mean, it's not at all important to the quest, and we can simply handwave it away, but like I said above, that's no fun
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- Location
- Patriarchova
If I may propose an amendment to Starfleet policy for such instances?
Feel free to cover it all up after you've vaporized Khan.
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AKuz
Been Better
- Location
- A Rising Tide of Horrors
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Then again Chekov /was there/. Not on the bridge, but he certainly met Khan (If Koenig is to be believed, Chekov made Khan wait to use the washroom > : V )
- Location
- Australia
Morning all.
Vote is closed. Could I have a tally, please?
Vote is closed. Could I have a tally, please?
Summary execution is rather not Federation!
Maybe he was being mum.
It's a thin theory but damn it woman it's the best I got!
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Yeah, but he was working the nightshift; does anyone ever remember the details of what happened on the nightshift?
- Location
- somewhere
Vote Tally : Sci-Fi - To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest) | Page 807 | Sufficient Velocity
##### NetTally 1.7.4
[X] Plan Continuity
-[X] Amash Hagan Research Office: 2320s Research Centers
-[X] Yoyodyne: 2320s EPS Safety
-[X] Andorian Academy: Shield Regeneration Project
-[X] Cdr Kuznetsova's Tiger Team: The Mission Unending
-[X] Generic Team 5: Klingon Research
No. of Votes: 26
[X] Forward Defense
No. of Votes: 1
——————————————————————————————————————————————
Task: BOOST
[X][BOOST] Vulcan Science Academy
No. of Votes: 26
——————————————————————————————————————————————
Task: DOCTRINE
[x] [DOCTRINE] Admiral Lathriss: Forward Defence
No. of Votes: 20
[X] [DOCTRINE] Admiral Lathriss: Fleet in Being
No. of Votes: 11
——————————————————————————————————————————————
Task: PERSONAL
[X] [PERSONAL] Caitian Frontier Police R&D: 2310s Equipment
No. of Votes: 26
[X] [PERSONAL] Caitian Frontier Police R&D: 2310s Personal Protection
No. of Votes: 2
Total No. of Voters: 32
##### NetTally 1.7.4
[X] Plan Continuity
-[X] Amash Hagan Research Office: 2320s Research Centers
-[X] Yoyodyne: 2320s EPS Safety
-[X] Andorian Academy: Shield Regeneration Project
-[X] Cdr Kuznetsova's Tiger Team: The Mission Unending
-[X] Generic Team 5: Klingon Research
No. of Votes: 26
[X] Forward Defense
No. of Votes: 1
——————————————————————————————————————————————
Task: BOOST
[X][BOOST] Vulcan Science Academy
No. of Votes: 26
——————————————————————————————————————————————
Task: DOCTRINE
[x] [DOCTRINE] Admiral Lathriss: Forward Defence
No. of Votes: 20
[X] [DOCTRINE] Admiral Lathriss: Fleet in Being
No. of Votes: 11
——————————————————————————————————————————————
Task: PERSONAL
[X] [PERSONAL] Caitian Frontier Police R&D: 2310s Equipment
No. of Votes: 26
[X] [PERSONAL] Caitian Frontier Police R&D: 2310s Personal Protection
No. of Votes: 2
Total No. of Voters: 32
The winning vote:
[X] Plan Continuity
-[X] Amash Hagan Research Office: 2320s Research Centers
-[X] Yoyodyne: 2320s EPS Safety
-[X] Andorian Academy: Shield Regeneration Project
-[X] Cdr Kuznetsova's Tiger Team: The Mission Unending
-[X] Generic Team 5: Klingon Research
[X] [PERSONAL] Caitian Frontier Police R&D: 2310s Equipment
[x] [DOCTRINE] Admiral Lathriss: Forward Defence
[X][BOOST] Vulcan Science Academy
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- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Good point.
To be fair, I'd rather we not get sucked too hard into a recursive mass of speculation on the quest's backstory. It would be pointless and a waste of energy. In particular, any retconning out important events (like the plot of the movies, or the broad strokes of TOS) in pursuit of a 'rational' backstory is a really bad idea.I'm not going to complain much if it's not explainable or left mysterious, but it's always fun to speculate on possible reasons on how the 2300 status quo of the Federation developed...
The problem is that the lack of knowledge of our surrounding space, and inferred lack of exploration or simply talking to our neighbors and migrants about what the heck is out there, doesn't jive with a 150 year old Federation. Especially one with a main centralized military force which "principal functions were the advancement of Federation knowledge about the galaxy, the advancement of Federation knowledge of science and technology, and the defense of the Federation."
A Federation that was created in the 23rd century would help explain that, since it forces the events of canon 22nd century and 2rd century to be crammed into an action-packed single century, where the young Federation is fighting to establish itself amidst Romulan and Klingon aggression and other threats.
I mean, it's not at all important to the quest, and we can simply handwave it away, but like I said above, that's no fun
Agreed, but if you can't summarily execute a dangerous person, trying to cover up all knowledge of their whereabouts while they're still alive is a bad idea. It's not a case where the policy is "you should kill them." It's "you shouldn't try to treat them like they're dead and buried when they're not."
Omake - Qo'nos and Praxis Pt 1 - Vehrec
Qo'nos And Praxis: The Great Work of Klingon Environmental Engineering. (Part one)
The destruction of Praxis in 2293 was detected almost immediately by federation listening posts and starships. It was not until the signing of the Khitomer accords however, that the full story became known. For centuries, the Klingons had mined Praxis for it's rich deposits of dilithium, polysilicate verterium, and cortenum, and used it in later years to construct vast industrial works, including their primary antimatter refineries. Abandoned mines were also used as landfills, burying millions of tons of heavy metals, radioactive substances, and dangerously contaminated components from scrapped starships. Here, it is believed, a test of a safety system meant to prevent total destruction in the event of a Federation attack triggered the cascade failure that lead to not only the destruction of the entire antimatter refinery, but of the moon itself, blow apart in a titanic blast that scattered most of it's mass out of the Qo'nos system altogether. However, Qo'nos did not escape unscathed.
The disaster began with the impact of the immense wave of ionizing and subspace radiation-reports from those outside at the time of the disaster report a blinding light reflected off the ground itself from the blast, and those looking at Praxis directly were permanently blinded. All those not shielded by the bulk of the planet also received a significant radiation dose-not enough to cause acute sickness, but even for Klingons, a dangerously high level of ionizing radiation that may cause cancer in one out of every one hundred witnesses. Plants and animals were also affected-some species had already begun to die back by the time the first pieces of Praxis began to hit the planet.
Although planetary shields and disruptor emplacements did their best to defend against the oncoming rain of rocks, one chunk of Praxis nearly ten kilometers by three dropped into the largest ocean on Kronos just six hours after the disaster, punching through the planet's crust and ripping open a gaping hole through which the planet's mantle could ooze. The immense hundred-meter tidal waves created by the impact were incredibly devistating-as many as 100,000,000 klingons were killed by this single impactor as entire cities were washed away before they could be evacuated. Although this single impact would have counted as a mass-extinction event in it's own right, it was only one of 18 impactors greater than 500 meters in size. Worse however, was still to come.
The physics of the interactions of sub-space active and inactive materials are not hard and fast. However, along with the large amounts of inactive rock, radioactive heavy metals and microscopically fragmented warp-core casings, significant amounts of Subspace Activated Silicates were dropped onto Qo'nos. Even more was actually generated when the shock-wave passed through the planet itself, salting it with a new kind of material that would consume oxygen at a tremendous rate. This property was poorly understood at the time, and one commonly quoted estimate of 'total oxygen depletion in 50 years' must be regarded as totally erroneous, like most science reporting. It was however, true that Oxygen levels in Qo'nos' atmosphere fell precipitously as biomass died off, wildfires raged unconstrained, and the ozone layer rapidly depleted by high-atmosphere aerosols. The activity of the new exotic material did act to help deplete the atmosphere of oxygen-though not to 0%. Rather, estimates indicated that by 2343, the Klingon Homeworld would have had 93% of it's breathable oxygen sequestered in either carbon dioxide or sub-silicate crystalline structures. This would leave only 1.4% of the planet's atmosphere useful oxygen, while nearly 10% would be toxic CO2. Long before that date arrived, the very air of Qo'nos would become unbreatheable to all Klingons, it's biosphere would collapse, massive food imports would be necessary, the climate would spiral out of control, and it would become a sucking economic chest-wound in the first-heart of the Klingon Empire.
Evacuation was now a matter of life and death for the Empire. With starships, industrial capacity, and Federation aid, it might be possible to prevent the worst outcomes. Enough time has now passed for us to make our first assessments of whether or not these measure have been successful.
The destruction of Praxis in 2293 was detected almost immediately by federation listening posts and starships. It was not until the signing of the Khitomer accords however, that the full story became known. For centuries, the Klingons had mined Praxis for it's rich deposits of dilithium, polysilicate verterium, and cortenum, and used it in later years to construct vast industrial works, including their primary antimatter refineries. Abandoned mines were also used as landfills, burying millions of tons of heavy metals, radioactive substances, and dangerously contaminated components from scrapped starships. Here, it is believed, a test of a safety system meant to prevent total destruction in the event of a Federation attack triggered the cascade failure that lead to not only the destruction of the entire antimatter refinery, but of the moon itself, blow apart in a titanic blast that scattered most of it's mass out of the Qo'nos system altogether. However, Qo'nos did not escape unscathed.
The disaster began with the impact of the immense wave of ionizing and subspace radiation-reports from those outside at the time of the disaster report a blinding light reflected off the ground itself from the blast, and those looking at Praxis directly were permanently blinded. All those not shielded by the bulk of the planet also received a significant radiation dose-not enough to cause acute sickness, but even for Klingons, a dangerously high level of ionizing radiation that may cause cancer in one out of every one hundred witnesses. Plants and animals were also affected-some species had already begun to die back by the time the first pieces of Praxis began to hit the planet.
Although planetary shields and disruptor emplacements did their best to defend against the oncoming rain of rocks, one chunk of Praxis nearly ten kilometers by three dropped into the largest ocean on Kronos just six hours after the disaster, punching through the planet's crust and ripping open a gaping hole through which the planet's mantle could ooze. The immense hundred-meter tidal waves created by the impact were incredibly devistating-as many as 100,000,000 klingons were killed by this single impactor as entire cities were washed away before they could be evacuated. Although this single impact would have counted as a mass-extinction event in it's own right, it was only one of 18 impactors greater than 500 meters in size. Worse however, was still to come.
The physics of the interactions of sub-space active and inactive materials are not hard and fast. However, along with the large amounts of inactive rock, radioactive heavy metals and microscopically fragmented warp-core casings, significant amounts of Subspace Activated Silicates were dropped onto Qo'nos. Even more was actually generated when the shock-wave passed through the planet itself, salting it with a new kind of material that would consume oxygen at a tremendous rate. This property was poorly understood at the time, and one commonly quoted estimate of 'total oxygen depletion in 50 years' must be regarded as totally erroneous, like most science reporting. It was however, true that Oxygen levels in Qo'nos' atmosphere fell precipitously as biomass died off, wildfires raged unconstrained, and the ozone layer rapidly depleted by high-atmosphere aerosols. The activity of the new exotic material did act to help deplete the atmosphere of oxygen-though not to 0%. Rather, estimates indicated that by 2343, the Klingon Homeworld would have had 93% of it's breathable oxygen sequestered in either carbon dioxide or sub-silicate crystalline structures. This would leave only 1.4% of the planet's atmosphere useful oxygen, while nearly 10% would be toxic CO2. Long before that date arrived, the very air of Qo'nos would become unbreatheable to all Klingons, it's biosphere would collapse, massive food imports would be necessary, the climate would spiral out of control, and it would become a sucking economic chest-wound in the first-heart of the Klingon Empire.
Evacuation was now a matter of life and death for the Empire. With starships, industrial capacity, and Federation aid, it might be possible to prevent the worst outcomes. Enough time has now passed for us to make our first assessments of whether or not these measure have been successful.
Good, but it's pretty short. You probably would have been better off waiting to finish it and then posting all at once so that when people are archive trawling them don't have to go between a lot of fragments on different pages.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Eh, I doubt there'll be more than one more post in the sequence, maybe two. Besides, that's what indexed threadmarks are for, right?
Good, but it's pretty short. You probably would have been better off waiting to finish it and then posting all at once so that when people are archive trawling them don't have to go between a lot of fragments on different pages.
- Location
- Tulsa Oklahoma
… Jesus Christ! And now they want to go to war with the Romulans only a few decades after the nigh total destruction of their homeworld? Has their leadership gone completely mad?!?
AKuz
Been Better
- Location
- A Rising Tide of Horrors
- Pronouns
- She/Her
- Location
- Tulsa Oklahoma
No, I would say going to war when you are recovering from an extinction event is insane even for Klingons, especially seeing as they have another means of working out their aggression that is much more pertinent due to what happened. Tell me, what is often considered as War's equal and opposite?