It does a very good job of explaining why there were no new Federation members. And perhaps the lack of minor species like the aforementioned Deltans and whatever can be handwaved away as simply being in a separate location in this AU.

However, it doesn't explain why the Federation knew very little about its surrounding neighborhood by 2300. With a century of even very minor exploration, and nations simply knowing about other nations, the Federation should have gotten at least some idea of the existence of Amarkians (through Orions) and Dawiar (through Caitians) and Gretarians (through Yrillians, though perhaps they weren't warp capable yet). And minor species shown in the canon 23rd century Federation wouldn't make sense as simply immigrants, if the Federation was stupid enough to not somehow ask such immigrants where they came from or what else is out there, even if they came from destroyed civilizations.

There is one way the TBG setting could work without requiring any retconning in this quest (I think), but would be a HUGE retcon of canon Star Trek: Have the TBG Federation establish itself in the 23rd century, rather than the 22nd century.

All the major events of both canon 22nd and 23rd centuries would have to be merged into an action-packed century of the new Federation's survival against Romulan and Klingon aggression. The lack of exploration, limited contact with other nations, general lack of known species, only 4 member nations, the relatively tiny fleets that both Starfleet and Romulans (and possibly Klingons) have shown - these all would make sense with such a canon retcon.

The Dawiar and Gretarans are both very new to warp travel, so it makes sense that no one would have heard of them.

I did actually throw in a very subtle continuity nod with my Amarki ship design,as well. In the TAS episode "The Pirates of Orion," Kirk and his crew don't recognize the design of the enemy ship, and are only able to identify it as Orion Syndicate because of its markings.


Just similar enough that the ship in tPoO could have been a last-gen Amarki vessel that the Syndicate got ahold of.

That said, the other problems you pointed out are still problems, and I have little idea what to do about them.

I have to admit, I had little idea what was going on here, or what faction this Orion man belonged to, until Lecarre was mentioned.

Hmm. Advice?
 
Last edited:
I did actually throw in a very subtle continuity nod with my Amarki ship design,as well. In the TAS episode "The Pirates of Orion," Kirk and his crew don't recognize the design of the enemy ship, and are only able to identify it as Orion Syndicate because of its markings.

Hah, I thought that picture was a fan-made amateur drawing until I saw the "TAS" rather than "TOS". Never having watched TAS at all, I had to confirm via google :p

That said, the other problems you pointed out are still problems, and I have little idea what to do about them.

I did propose a solution (UFP was created in 23rd century), but I would understand if that is unpalatable to a lot of folks.


I might just be dense.

First, I didn't catch the name of the omake, linking the previous Lecarre-related one to this one. That omake also didn't mention Lecarre directly, but the context and wording made it obvious.

Here, there was only one subtle indicator - the agent's flinch at being touched - and then the surrounding political context that I didn't grasp at first, because the factions and their relationships were introduced in a somewhat indirect way and mostly in the latter half while I was already confused. I had to reread it again to figure out that was a Syndicate-related Yrillian faction, and that the "Orion man" was not actually a Syndicate agent (I think).

If you're not trying to go for a mystery piece, then I think the omake just needs to be made clear who all the non-Lecarre actors are earlier in this scene, instead of revealing them slowly in the latter half while the reader (aka me) is still confused.
 
I might just be dense.

First, I didn't catch the name of the omake, linking the previous Lecarre-related one to this one. That omake also didn't mention Lecarre directly, but the context and wording made it obvious.

Here, there was only one subtle indicator - the agent's flinch at being touched - and then the surrounding political context that I didn't grasp at first, because the factions and their relationships were introduced in a somewhat indirect way and mostly in the latter half while I was already confused. I had to reread it again to figure out that was a Syndicate-related Yrillian faction, and that the "Orion man" was not actually a Syndicate agent (I think).

If you're not trying to go for a mystery piece, then I think the omake just needs to be made clear who all the non-Lecarre actors are earlier in this scene, instead of revealing them slowly in the latter half while the reader (aka me) is still confused.

Ah. Yeah, I wrote "Elves and Giants" with the assumption that the reader would recognize the title from the last chapter, and that they've read this.

If it still isn't clear: Ara was a prominent member of a pirate-friendly Yrillian faction that had frequent dealings with the Syndicate. The "Orion man" was a Lecarre agent who infiltrated a particularly tense negotiating session between the two and framed the Orions for murdering her in what looked like a drunken argument that got out of hand. This led to the rest of her work group taking revenge against the Syndicate negotiators, and weakening Yrillian/Syndicate relations.

I edited the ending to mention the Lecarre by name. Any other advice?
 
Last edited:
I edited the ending to mention the Lecarre by name. Any other advice?

It's better, and if the reader was still confused, it makes a nice ending twist.

Two things still stuck out to me. First, I had no idea what a "Delbaj" was, and had to look that up memory beta (wasn't in memory alpha) to see that it meant an Orion lieutenant in the Orion Syndicate. Second, it wasn't clear to me whether the Lecarre agent was masquerading as a Syndicate agent or if he was just around like that Sydraxian gardener, because he kept talking aloud about the Syndicate in a non-possessive and frank manner, as if he didn't belong to it.
 
:facepalm:

Building starbases frees up ships to go elsewhere, that is true regardless of defense doctrine, however Forward Defense does not boost starbase construction as much as Fleet in Being does.

Fleet in Being provides global discounts to starbase construction, Forward Defense only provides discounts to building starbases in border zones. While we will build starbases to cover defense needs in both cases, one provides more bonuses to starbase contruction than the other.

Fleet in Being incidentally provides bonuses to starbase research and defense as well.

I'm saying that the way FD's garrison changes and combat reduction both work, that building starbases under FD is more beneficial than under FIB. FIB has more tech that improves starbases, but they remain a better investment under FD than FIB. You should not just look at the techs that mention them, but the math that supports the big picture. It is counterintuitive, but that does not stop it being true.
 
My intended angle was that the Cardassians want the Yrillians to be united under a central, Cardassian-client government. According to the Yrillian brief someone wrote a while back, the Orion Syndicate wants to keep the Yrillian central government weak so that they can keep doing criminal stuff with them. The Cardassians tolerated this until now because they could use the pro-Orion Yrillian factions to channel aid to the Syndicate for anti-Federation activities, but now the Syndicate no longer seems worth the cost of a strong Yrillian client.

I liked the omake, though I think the Cardassians are being typically arrogant in assuming they can "manage" the relationship between the Syndicate and the Yrillians, considering that Yrillians have known Orions for over 800 years. But no, I completely buy that the Cardassians assume they can do a few false flag operations and uproot a relationship that has probably existed for centuries.

The funny part being, it might actually work because the Syndicate is currently in full on crisis mode trying to protect their core assets and has no time to be worrying about maintaining relationships with the Yrillian pirates and shipyards.
 
I'm saying that the way FD's garrison changes and combat reduction both work, that building starbases under FD is more beneficial than under FIB.

Starbases have almost the same direct effects under both doctrines (FiB does give +1D). They free up ships in both cases, it makes no difference and claiming otherwise is false. Building Starbases is actually slightly better under Fleet in Being as they cost less.
 
Last edited:
Starbases have almost the same direct effects under both doctrines (FiB does give +1D). They free up ships in both cases, it makes no difference and claiming otherwise is false.

That is an incredibly shallow level of analysis. The fact they free up ships in both cases matters more in one because it mechanically encourages moving mobile forces to certain locations. That is a difference, and your unwillingness to analyze the situation and instead accuse your opponent of lying does not speak well of your argument.
 
I liked the omake, though I think the Cardassians are being typically arrogant in assuming they can "manage" the relationship between the Syndicate and the Yrillians, considering that Yrillians have known Orions for over 800 years. But no, I completely buy that the Cardassians assume they can do a few false flag operations and uproot a relationship that has probably existed for centuries.

The funny part being, it might actually work because the Syndicate is currently in full on crisis mode trying to protect their core assets and has no time to be worrying about maintaining relationships with the Yrillian pirates and shipyards.

Well, that's one of the reasons they're only trying this now.

The other, of course, being that letting the Syndicate operate in Yrillian space seemed worth it until recently.
 
Last edited:
Both doctrines encourage moving forces to specific locations.
Both doctrines benefit from having more ships free to move around. Is it really that hard to grasp.
 
Starbases have almost the same direct effects under both doctrines (FiB does give +1D). They free up ships in both cases, it makes no difference and claiming otherwise is false.
We will always have more home sectors and homeworlds than border zones. This amplifies the effect of starbases to cover the non-discounted regions, especially because we don't actually want to replace ships in a BZ. The way the combat discount is counted compared between doctrines amplifies this even further. As borders grow, border zone starbases will be subsumed into new core sectors, another effect that nets more bonus to FD and will sometimes be negative to FIB.

Until you model the doctrines in practice, you don't discover these effects, but they exist.
 
Additionally, the Starbase event booster techs in Sensors mean that having starbases helps us control where events ARE, and the starbase response techs in Starbase Construction basically mandate having at least one starbase per sector/zone, no exceptions EVER!
 
As far as starbases are concerned we want at least one in each border zone and over each homeworld. Also if we have the PP to spare expanding coverage to put starbases over critical infrastructure or key control points. Both doctrines benefit from them and I do imagine a minimum number of ships per sector, even in excess of the defense requirements once we get the fleet built up. Having said that starbases can also serve a second purpose of strongpoints, they have good hull and shield values and solid combat and in addition to repairing ships provide a sensor platform and rallying location. If you look at DS9, the Federation would gather their offensive fleets at one or more starbases before sending them off to battle.
 
Sure we'd eventually like to have one Excelsior per sector. But when the day comes that "our number of non-Explorer Excelsiors" = "Sectors + Border Zones + 1" where do you think that extra Excelsior is going to go? Of course we'd put it in a border zone rather than a home sector. Independent of doctrine, not even thinking about doctrine, I'm pretty sure that's what the thread would vote to do. To keep trouble away.

Contrast that to where Fleet in Being ultimately takes you, which is stacking up the 'extra' Excelsiors in Sol system or wherever the fleet's home system is. I don't think anyone would want to do that.

So that's really the big reason I'm voting Forward Defense. I can see a vision where most home sectors have one Excelsior and one cruiser or escrot, and that's all the coverage they need, while we have the border zones stacked with five or six ship fleets.
 
Sure we'd eventually like to have one Excelsior per sector. But when the day comes that "our number of non-Explorer Excelsiors" = "Sectors + Border Zones + 1" where do you think that extra Excelsior is going to go? Of course we'd put it in a border zone rather than a home sector. Independent of doctrine, not even thinking about doctrine, I'm pretty sure that's what the thread would vote to do. To keep trouble away.

Contrast that to where Fleet in Being ultimately takes you, which is stacking up the 'extra' Excelsiors in Sol system or wherever the fleet's home system is. I don't think anyone would want to do that.

So that's really the big reason I'm voting Forward Defense. I can see a vision where most home sectors have one Excelsior and one cruiser or escrot, and that's all the coverage they need, while we have the border zones stacked with five or six ship fleets.

Historically Fleets in being were not always stationed at the centre of the metropole. Quite often they would exist at an important and strategically sited base, whihc could often be at the periphery. For examples; the Grand Fleet at Scapa flow, and the USN pacific fleet at Pearl Harbour. Or the plan to move the bulk of the Royal Navy to Singapore in case of war with Japan.

I would Imagine that Fleet in being which would demand that we set up a large fleet base somewhere strategic which be home to our main non-garrison force.
 
Historically Fleets in being were not always stationed at the centre of the metropole. Quite often they would exist at an important and strategically sited base, whihc could often be at the periphery. For examples; the Grand Fleet at Scapa flow, and the USN pacific fleet at Pearl Harbour. Or the plan to move the bulk of the Royal Navy to Singapore in case of war with Japan.

I would Imagine that Fleet in being which would demand that we set up a large fleet base somewhere strategic which be home to our main non-garrison force.

Except Fleet in Being is specifically about stationing the majority of the fleet in a single home sector. Having it on the border would go against everything the doctrine says.
 
Except Fleet in Being is specifically about stationing the majority of the fleet in a single home sector. Having it on the border would go against everything the doctrine says.
It would be the home sector closest to likely problems, not a border zone. E. g. when expecting war with the Klingons the Fleet would be based in Andor, when expecting war with the Romulans it would be based in Vulcan, when expecting war with the Cardassians in Rethelia or the Apinae sector.
 
The other, of course, being that letting the Syndicate operate in Yrillian space seemed worth it until recently.

The Syndicate would probably huff and say something about how letting the Cardassians to operate in Yrillian space seemed worth it until recently.

It would be the home sector closest to likely problems, not a border zone. E. g. when expecting war with the Klingons the Fleet would be based in Andor, when expecting war with the Romulans it would be based in Vulcan, when expecting war with the Cardassians in Rethelia or the Apinae sector.

Yes, that would be the idea. And as long as trouble is expected from only one direction that would work well. But look at where we are right now. Sydraxian raids, Cardassia a constant threat, needing to keep Ferasa and Amarkia garrisoned at a ludicrously high level as part of our anti-Syndicate strategy, and oh yes... Romulan and Klingon Empires expected to go to war with each other any year now. (Which may not seem like a threat to us directly, but at the very least we'd like to discourage them from attempting to use Federation space for flanking maneuvers.)
 
Omake - A Federation of Fear Pt 3 - Leila Hann
A Federation of Fear (part three: the Fearless)



The great limestone doors of the throne room closed behind him, and with them all the honor Councillor Bluk had earned for his clan.

It would be years before he or his successor could open their mouths during Council sessions and be taken seriously. Decades before theirs would carry anywhere near the weight as the word of the other Councillors. If they were very lucky, Bluk's great great grandchildren would only have a little bit of stigma left to overcome. It was no formal reprimand that the Great King had issued upon Clan Far Strider. No accusations of treason or deceit or misconduct. Nothing that they could put him and his kin on trial for to find them guilty or innocent. The Far Striders had already been tried, convicted, and sentenced inside the hearts of the Great King and all his retainers for the crime of stupidity.

Bluk left the royal complex, but he did not return straight to the shuttle that was waiting to take him home. His thanes had all anticipated this, but he would rather not confirm their worst suspicions until tonight, after they had dined and rested. He owed them that small favor, after all that his misjudgement was going to cost the clan. What it had already cost the entire Dawiar people. Instead, he went to the basalt aqueduct that run along the city's outskirts, near the Hall of Honored Guests where he had spent so much time in the last few years. Today, he would not speak to any alien guests if he could help it. Instead, he would walk alone along the dark watercourse and ponder his reflection.

That plan ended when a tall, crimson-skinned biped in a skintight black bodysuit rose like a spindly ghost from the black waters and stepped up onto the pavement.

"You," Bluk said gruffly, barely giving ambassador Iualth the privilege of eye contact.

"Yep. Hello."

"Hmmph. I think this is the first time I've seen you outdoors."

"Probably." The tall, thin, crimson-skinned man (or was it a woman? Bluk had never been sure) shook himself off, spreading the sharp, fan-shaped hackles on either side of his head to dry them. "I usually come out at night. And I usually stay in the water."

Bluk snorted. "Every time you open your mouth, I learn something else that unnerves me."

"If it makes you feel any better," Iualth walked up beside Bluk, still ringing water off of his cartilaginous spines, "I've been terrified since I set foot on this planet."

Bluk slowly craned his head around to look up at the Lecarre.

"Why would I ever not be? You are strong, warlike creatures, Counselor. I doubt there's a healthy adult man or woman in this city who couldn't tear me apart if it came down to it."

"Why," Bluk said slowly, "would any of them do that?"

"I don't know." Iualth spread his hackles to emphasize the point. "If I knew anything important, I wouldn't be an ambassador. But I see the disgust in your people's eyes when they behold the alien among them."

Bluk turned to face the Lecarre head on, fixing him (her? it? whatever) with a smouldering glare. "My people do not pass judgement on such petty things as physical appearance."

"No, they don't. That's one of the many things I love about you. So upfront. So earnest. In some ways, I think I might envy you. But you are right, its not my color, my membranes, or my spurs that disgust them. Its what I've come to represent."

"And whose fault is that?"

Iualth sucked in a deep breath and let it out with a low, rattling gurgle. "The Cardassians, more than anyone. It saddens me that their poor excuse for an intelligence network has tarnished the reputations of their entire people, and my own by association, but there we are."

Bluk actually laughed. Dawiar did not laugh easily, or often, and Iualth actually recoiled at the harsh, unfamiliar noise. "Of course. The Central Command was wrong when they told us the Sarek was a unique vessel and not one of nearly a dozen Federation dreadnoughts. They were mistaken when they warned us that the Caitians were planning to invade as soon as we turned our backs. Someone must have mixed up the paperwork when they told the Great King to his face that the Kadak-Tor had malfunctioned with a Legate's son aboard. Poor, poor Cardassia with its faulty intelligence."

There was a very long, very silent pause. Iualth's fins were half-open as he met Bluk's eyes without flinching.

"Incredible," the Lecarre ambassador finally said.

Bluk raised an eye ridge, still scowling.

"To you, those lies were all insults."

Bluk harumphed. "Maybe NOW you understand why we look at you with disdain."

"Yes, I think so. But perhaps you, too, understand why we admire your people so, even as we fear you."

"Another lie."

"What would I have to gain by lying to you? Besides, as I said, if I knew anything worth lying about, they wouldn't risk putting me at the mercy of an alien species." The two of them stared into the water for a few more moments. "My people bare no responsibility for what the Cardassians told you, or didn't tell you. But for what its worth, I am sorry that your clan has been dishonored for it."

"Thane Toral of the Stone Whispers was right. My clan was wrong to introduce the Cardassians to his Majesty. But now he has sworn an Oath of Fealty to them, and cannot break it no matter how he wishes to. As if our fealty ever meant more to the Cardassians than a gullible, primitive species they could throw under the Federation's wheels."

"I wish I could say you were wrong, Counselor Bluk, but I have no desire to start lying now."

Iualth dipped his bare toes back into the water, sending a tiny ripple across the black surface. "Do you remember what I asked you, my first day in the Hall of Honored Guests?"

Bluk snorted again, turning away from the Lecarre. "Yes. My answer hasn't changed."

"Indeed." Iualth sounded almost sad. "What do you fear? Nothing. You were telling the truth, that day, and had I known your people as well as I do now I would have believed you then."

There was a soft plunk as the Lecarre stepped back into the black canal, letting the water rise up past his armpits.

"I don't believe I will be seeing this world many more times, Councilor Bluk. I will miss you. Have a good evening."

He vanished into the black abyss.


_____________

A/N: I described Lecarre having trouble with the Risan surf in an earlier omake, but I always envisioned them as somewhat amphibious. The fins and hackles don't make much sense otherwise. My interpretation is that they evolved in a wetland ecosystem, and don't do so well with waves and saltwater.
 
Last edited:
[X] Base Plan Continuity
[X][BOOST] Vulcan Science Academy
[X][PERSONAL] Caitian Frontier Police R&D: 2310s Equipment
[X][DOCTRINE] Admiral Lathriss: Forward Defence
 
Updated Vote Count:
Vote Tally : Sci-Fi - To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest) | Page 807 | Sufficient Velocity
##### NetTally 1.7.4

[25] Plan: ◈Continuity
[1] Forward Defense


——————————————————————————————————————————————
Task: BOOST

[25][BOOST] Vulcan Science Academy


——————————————————————————————————————————————
Task: DOCTRINE

[19][DOCTRINE] Admiral Lathriss: Forward Defence
[11][DOCTRINE] Admiral Lathriss: Fleet in Being


——————————————————————————————————————————————
Task: PERSONAL

[25][PERSONAL] Caitian Frontier Police R&D: 2310s Equipment
[2][PERSONAL] Caitian Frontier Police R&D: 2310s Personal Protection

Total No. of Voters: 31
 
[X] Base Plan Continuity
[X][BOOST] Vulcan Science Academy
[X][PERSONAL] Caitian Frontier Police R&D: 2310s Equipment
[X][DOCTRINE] Admiral Lathriss: Forward Defence
 
Historically Fleets in being were not always stationed at the centre of the metropole. Quite often they would exist at an important and strategically sited base, whihc could often be at the periphery. For examples; the Grand Fleet at Scapa flow...
On a global scale, all of Britain was part of the British metropole. The British version of "Forward Defense" would be to position a large fraction of their heavy ships at bases not part of the British Isles: Gibraltar to cover the Mediterranean, Halifax if they were worried about the US, Alexandria if they were worried about the Turks, the Far East if they were worried about Japan, and so on.

The main reason they didn't do this (to an extent they did; having a strong fleet in the Mediterranean and such was common British policy for much of the 19th century) and concentrated the fleet in Britain was because there were, physically, no possible places Britain could base a fleet that would position it to stop a French or (later) German naval attack, except for Britain itself. They didn't have the strategic equivalent of a "German Border Zone."

The World War-era decision to base the fleet out of Scapa Flow came about because it was the only submarine-proof anchorage the British had. An underwater submarine trying to get into the harbor was in grave danger. In WWI a German submarine died trying, and only one German captain ever managed in WWII (one of their best). That was a highly specific detail, equivalent to us saying "the best place to position our ships in THIS sector, where they are immune to surprise attacks, is... HERE!" It did not represent a decision to push the fleet out to the periphery.

and the USN pacific fleet at Pearl Harbour.
Hawaii was in many ways the westernmost extent of "America" in a territorial sense. It represented a somewhat forward posture, but not extremely forward. Not "we're in a position to intercept the Japanese before they do us any harm."

A seriously forward defense would have been to base major fleet elements in Manila, rather than leaving the Asiatic Fleet a light force of destroyers and cruisers, with a cruiser flagship.

...Or the plan to move the bulk of the Royal Navy to Singapore in case of war with Japan.
Now that is a forward defense.

I would Imagine that Fleet in being which would demand that we set up a large fleet base somewhere strategic which be home to our main non-garrison force.
Yes, actually, they have a "Home System" mechanic for that exact purpose. And we do get some flexibility as to where in our territory we put that fleet.

I do regret implying that Fleet in Being meant ALL our ships would be docked in home systems doing nothing. I'm sure they'll be active. My point was, and remains, a bit simpler: that far-ranging exploration by a variety of ships (not just the giant flagships of the Explorer Corps) is more in keeping with the Starfleet ethos we see in the shows, compared to regarding the bulk of our fleet as garrisons and local 'space patrol' for our own territory.
 
Last edited:
I do regret implying that Fleet in Being meant ALL our ships would be docked in home systems doing nothing. I'm sure they'll be active. My point was, and remains, a bit simpler: that far-ranging exploration by a variety of ships (not just the giant flagships of the Explorer Corps) is more in keeping with the Starfleet ethos we see in the shows, compared to regarding the bulk of our fleet as garrisons and local 'space patrol' for our own territory.

For extra fun, we can send lone Mirandas on exploration/scouting missions and not keep any paperwork about where we marooned an army of vengeful transhuman supersoldiers.

Wrath of Khan was a good movie and all, but jesus fucking christ was that avoidable.
 
Last edited:
For extra fun, we can send lone Mirandas on exploration/scouting missions and not keep any paperwork about where we marooned an army of vengeful transhuman supersoldiers.

Wrath of Khan was a good movie and all, but jesus fucking christ was that avoidable.

To be fair, they were on the wrong planet. Of course, the fact that the system was missing an entire planet should have been a big clue.
 
Back
Top