So far I managed really well without having to read ~100 or so Omakes of which majority does seem to have little to no mechanical impact on the story (the only omakes I found mandatory so far are the whole species overviews). I mean you guys are telling me that all those things have happened in omakes which in turn makes me wonder why I haven't seen any of it having resulted in any impact or cost increase.
To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)
- Thread starter OneirosTheWriter
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So far I managed really well without having to read ~100 or so Omakes of which majority does seem to have little to no mechanical impact on the story (the only omakes I found mandatory so far are the whole species overviews). I mean you guys are telling me that all those things have happened in omakes which in turn makes me wonder why I haven't seen any of it having resulted in any impact or cost increase.
- Location
- Patriarchova
In several cases, the "mechanical impacts" are actual plot events.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
@Erandil, if you decide to ignore the omakes, that's fine.
But you forfeit all right to complain about not understanding the plot, because you stopped reading the plot. What can I say?
"You don't have anything if you don't have the stories" may not have been meant in this context, but it still applies.
If you're complaining that the events in the omakes aren't having mechanical consequences, that at least makes sense. But then what you really want is for Oneiros to start issuing omake awards more regularly. We've talked about that.
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@Leila Hann :
Actually, no, the Catholic Church analogy isn't a bad one, if we're just trying to get a picture of what is going on and just how big an entrenched opponent we're dealing with.
Only this is the Church in the 1500s, after the Reformation.
There are political movements have openly declared their opposition to the Syndicate. There are 'secular' power structures that have decided it is to their advantage to align with those movements, to reject the old tangle of corporate-Syndicate power that used to run all of Orion society. However, that tangle didn't really go away; it's still there. And there is a slow-burning civil war within Orion society over whether the 'Counter-Reformation' of Syndicate/corporate power will retake control, or whether the more populist-democratic government we call the Orion Union will be able to push the Syndicate back.
The biggest difference is that by the late 1500s, cuius regio, eius religio was in play in Europe, and each specific territorial block had declared itself Catholic or Protestant. Conflicts between the two religious groups were mostly territorial wars, altered by passing through the lens of state power and control. Here, the two sides are still all jumbled up together within the same territory.
It's like twenty planets full of Northern Irelands.
And so, yes, there are large, well armed groups quite capable of resisting us, we just landed in the middle of some of them.
So for anyone who can't wrap their brains around the idea that the Syndicate, a 'Mafia,' can do something like this...
Stop thinking of them as the Mafia. Start thinking of them as the IRA, only with profitable criminal sidelines.
But you forfeit all right to complain about not understanding the plot, because you stopped reading the plot. What can I say?
"You don't have anything if you don't have the stories" may not have been meant in this context, but it still applies.
If you're complaining that the events in the omakes aren't having mechanical consequences, that at least makes sense. But then what you really want is for Oneiros to start issuing omake awards more regularly. We've talked about that.
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@Leila Hann :
Actually, no, the Catholic Church analogy isn't a bad one, if we're just trying to get a picture of what is going on and just how big an entrenched opponent we're dealing with.
Only this is the Church in the 1500s, after the Reformation.
There are political movements have openly declared their opposition to the Syndicate. There are 'secular' power structures that have decided it is to their advantage to align with those movements, to reject the old tangle of corporate-Syndicate power that used to run all of Orion society. However, that tangle didn't really go away; it's still there. And there is a slow-burning civil war within Orion society over whether the 'Counter-Reformation' of Syndicate/corporate power will retake control, or whether the more populist-democratic government we call the Orion Union will be able to push the Syndicate back.
The biggest difference is that by the late 1500s, cuius regio, eius religio was in play in Europe, and each specific territorial block had declared itself Catholic or Protestant. Conflicts between the two religious groups were mostly territorial wars, altered by passing through the lens of state power and control. Here, the two sides are still all jumbled up together within the same territory.
It's like twenty planets full of Northern Irelands.
And so, yes, there are large, well armed groups quite capable of resisting us, we just landed in the middle of some of them.
So for anyone who can't wrap their brains around the idea that the Syndicate, a 'Mafia,' can do something like this...
Stop thinking of them as the Mafia. Start thinking of them as the IRA, only with profitable criminal sidelines.
In fact that is the last thing I want. More rewards would either totally destroy the difficulty of the quest, and with that the whole narrative, or it would result in a situation where we need a certain amout of omakes to progress/don't fail which is a horrible way to treat your players and creates horrible inbalance between players (also known as the pay to win).
Vastly over-stating it, IMO. The omakes aren't that important. I don't read a lot of the ones that don't excite me in the first couple of paragraphs, and I understand what's going on fine.
I don't want to give any new players the completely mistaken idea that they can't just skip the omakes.
@Erandil you do not have to read any omakes.
So just the IRA then.
They haven't really been fighting us directly that much. Attacking police and attempting to terrorize local authority figures is well within the sort of thing the Cosa Nostra does (or did, more often in the bad old days when it had a lot more power).
A lot of that isn't of our concern... the politicians are handling it. The rest of it is likely still ramping up. Taking some shots at the new police is the most visible and quickest sign of resistance. You'll see more of the rest (to the extent it's relevant to Starfleet) as things progress. I mean, seriously. A few bombings and law enforcement assassinations? You think the mafia hasn't done way worse than that? Did you expect the Syndicate not to start killing the Caitian Frontier Police or something?
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Okay, fair point. That is strictly true. It's not so much that I think "people have to read omakes." It's that I think that Erandil's specific complaints don't make sense given that he doesn't read the omakes.
You can't complain that what's happening doesn't make sense, if you have decided not to read the stories that tell you, in detail, what's happening and why.
And you can't complain that there are events in the plot which don't appear to have mechanical consequences, if you oppose having such consequences for such events.
It's not fair to blame other people for confusion brought about by one's own actions. Nor is it fair to blame other people for a thing not happening, when one does not actually want that thing to happen.
Huh. Okay, yeah. Although I think the Syndicate takes it farther than the IRA does/did.
But in order to 'shrink the amount of space that needs to be patrolled', you put our task force on eight separate worlds instead of just three. The syndicate can lie low, batten down the hatches when a starship passes through, and then come out of hiding when Starfleet leaves again. You would be spread too thin, and instead of bottling up the Syndicate, you would invite them to gang up on your patrolling ships and runabouts, and smash them when they're isolated.
And if you leave a fortress of corruption to fester for too long, they might elect a Syndicate controlled president of the Orion Union who will tell you to get out. The Federation's hands are rather tied then, aren't they?
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lbmaian
a thirsty squirrel
- Location
- USA
I think there's a misunderstanding here. I don't disagree that commodores and admirals in charge of fleets or other Starfleet divisions shouldn't arise out of ship captains. It's that I don't think it should be the only possible career path up for ship captains.
Ever seen a skill or talent tree in RPGs? Where your character can specialize in multiple ways, yet start from basically the same path initially? I'm suggesting something like that for promotion (branches like large-scale command, further specialization in ship captaining, some sort of analysis, etc.), except with branches of the tree gated by different sets of aptitudes, with some aptitudes being much rarer than others (like large-scale command management), and obviously not all branches are "balanced" in terms of depth (large-scale command branch should be deepest, leading to Starfleet Admiral). Officers wouldn't even necessarily be constrained by only going down one path of branches, although they're heavily incentivized to do so, and switching is possible although not as common as advancing up a branch.
All such branches are important and need to be filled and are complementary to each other. Each promotion along this tree should still represent an increasing level of importance and responsibility to Starfleet.
This is the best way I can think off to maximize utility out of all the officers while maintaining career progression paths. I think it's already applied to some extent, with the diverse set of billets and all the jumping around between them in the commodore and admiral ranks - I'm just generalizing it to include captain and lower ranks.
And what I'm trying to say is that "promotion" doesn't necessarily have to end up going to fleet commodore or whatever traditional equivalent. You can still be "promoted" in your specialization, commensurate with your effectiveness and importance to Starfleet. Sure, you'll eventually hit a limit, but that will happen to everyone, depending on your ability and the depth of the promotion branch.
At some point, if there isn't continued Starfleet growth, career progression for new talent will be an issue, and that's when we'll start encouraging retirement or reassignments from positions with higher supply (of available candidates) to positions with lower supply, taking into account officer aptitude and potential.
I am aware. Which is why I think one of the ways it can be avoided as long as possible is to provide as many useful career paths as possible, instead of just a straightforward career ladder.
I disagree. The battle is mostly taking place from a narrator's or Nash's perspective, and remarking on any personal difficulties on the part of Nash would ratchet up the tension and drama, generally leading to better storytelling. That she can triumph in spite of any tactical mistakes and her resulting regret and resolve to do better would add depth to her character.
I doubt it's as primitive as that. I don't know what tactics would be used in Star Trek in these battles (although I could speculate and research), but if you compare it to the full mechanical bonuses allowed by doctrines, the tactics can't be that primitive.
This does bring up an interesting point though - there isn't any mechanism in this game that models a commander's ability to effectively command ever larger fleets. The only thing we have are the base combat mechanics, doctrines, ship crew ratings (unrelated to fleet command), and commander-level fleet bonuses which are static per commander. Nothing about commander skill at handling larger fleet sizes.
You know, the Gray October crisis would make a great mini-series of sorts. It's kinda odd to stick such a tense arc that would work as a season finale in the middle of a season.
...unless the writers of the show were worried about a cancellation due to recent UPN troubles in 2005-2006 (how convenient!) and wanted to ensure there was at least some conclusion on the Cardassian front before then. And then either UPN survived or another network bid for TBG, and the show continued.
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- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
...I like that explanation. The network thing.
Also, part of my theory is that the writers decided they were going to build the Syndicate up as main antagonists some time in 2004 or so (before the fourth season was even done airing). That decision may have been influenced by the war in Iraq, among other things.
But they knew they needed to build the Syndicate up first as a threat, and they decided to commit the fifth season to doing that. Trouble is, they couldn't really wrap up the Cardassians in the fourth season because they'd already produced most if not all of the fourth season episodes... So they wrote a plot in which the Cardassians figure less, but with a damn good explanation for why, allowing them to build up the Syndicate while keeping the Cardassians in people's minds, the way the Klingons and Romulans stayed in people's minds during TNG even if you only ever actually saw them once or twice a season.
I mean, don't get me wrong, Kadak-Tor would make a great two-parter season finale and all. But you'd have to get rather Procrustean with the content we actually have in the game to make it happen. As a finale to the fourth season, it means we have to greatly compress the closing phase of the Borderlands arc (which was already winding down to a degree before Ajam hit a mine, let alone before Grey October). As a finale to the fifth season, we'd have to greatly extend and stretch the same content and spread it out over two full seasons.
My gut feeling is that it wouldn't work very well. It'd result in either a bad fourth season (too compressed, with too many "heavy plot" episodes and not enough Boldly Going fare), or a bad fifth season (too rarefied, with not enough heavy plot and too much Boldly Going).
Also, part of my theory is that the writers decided they were going to build the Syndicate up as main antagonists some time in 2004 or so (before the fourth season was even done airing). That decision may have been influenced by the war in Iraq, among other things.
But they knew they needed to build the Syndicate up first as a threat, and they decided to commit the fifth season to doing that. Trouble is, they couldn't really wrap up the Cardassians in the fourth season because they'd already produced most if not all of the fourth season episodes... So they wrote a plot in which the Cardassians figure less, but with a damn good explanation for why, allowing them to build up the Syndicate while keeping the Cardassians in people's minds, the way the Klingons and Romulans stayed in people's minds during TNG even if you only ever actually saw them once or twice a season.
I mean, don't get me wrong, Kadak-Tor would make a great two-parter season finale and all. But you'd have to get rather Procrustean with the content we actually have in the game to make it happen. As a finale to the fourth season, it means we have to greatly compress the closing phase of the Borderlands arc (which was already winding down to a degree before Ajam hit a mine, let alone before Grey October). As a finale to the fifth season, we'd have to greatly extend and stretch the same content and spread it out over two full seasons.
My gut feeling is that it wouldn't work very well. It'd result in either a bad fourth season (too compressed, with too many "heavy plot" episodes and not enough Boldly Going fare), or a bad fifth season (too rarefied, with not enough heavy plot and too much Boldly Going).
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Honestly, at this point I'm having trouble following what bad thing you think is happening and what you would like to happen instead. You think up-or-out shouldn't be applied below the commodore rank? Is that it?
Well... it actually doesn't seem to be, or at least not nearly to the same extent. So problem solved, I guess. The issue with ka'Sharren was more about not wanting to have FYM posts permanently occupied than it was that she can't stay at Captain rank if she really wanted to. But I think even for her it was more about wanting to stay on the Enterprise than not wanting to be a Commodore.
I've noticed that Starfleet also seems to encourage sabbaticals, where you go take some time off and do something else, and then come back after years to compete with the young turks for a job in your old rank or one higher. If you really are that good, you can get it. If not, that's when you have to retire for good. (See Chekhov or Vice Admiral Sousa).
On another level, the game seems build around the idea of a constantly expanding Starfleet. We get personnel infusions every year, but there's no corresponding "retirement" mechanic where we lose personnel. It seems to be assumed that the +personnel numbers we get from the Academy are over and above making up losses due to retirements and non-dramatic deaths. (Some technologies give us a positive crew input yearly by being safety improvements that lower the amount of presumed deaths.) If we suddenly stopped building new ships, the personnel pools would explode and we'd have to rebalance the game to account for it.
lbmaian
a thirsty squirrel
- Location
- USA
Well, I think downplaying the Cardassian threat in preparation for the Syndicate campaign could have done without the likely large expense of the Kadak-Tor episodes. Could've had something mostly "off-screen" happen to Cardassia instead, for example, with maybe a relatively low key episode or two to expand on it (low key compared to the intense Kadak-Tor incident).
But a confluence of real life circumstances could easily explain why we had the mid-season Grey October episodes as-is.
To that specific question, I think there should just be more career paths to avoid up-or-out at more ranks.
However, I do agree that it's not that relevant at the moment, and nothing particularly egregious is happening now with regards to forced promotion or retirement. Starfleet is showing flexibility, in part because it constantly growing.
My whole beef wasn't directly specific to recent events like Nash's promotion. After all, I think she'd make a great commodore and admiral, if her performance at the Biophage crisis was any indication - and I do think she performed wonderfully there. But rather it was the general discussion going on that was spurred by those recent events and around the rat race concept. To quote myself: "I'm kinda bothered by the whole rat race concept. Not the mechanic, but just the obsession with promotion to a higher different position, even if you're already in the most effective position you'd think you be in." And then people started replying to it and I replied back...
AKuz
Been Better
- Location
- A Rising Tide of Horrors
- Pronouns
- She/Her
That's what the Aero commandos did and I know exactly where the issue was that caused that to spin out.
The trouble comes when one of the people issuing those sealed orders are perhaps compromised.
Oh no. I hope we don't end up fighting the 30 space years war
Nervos Belli
Don't think this means you've won!
- Location
- Murica
So long as Space Gustavus Adolphus is on our side we'll be fine.
By the way, I noticed that the Syndicate Status post has been updated again with some details regarding what our voted items are doing for us.
Office 36 apparently gives us a reroll every quarter plus a free Syndicate intelligence report.
Union Customs Enforcement has "[base -1 chance of catching out smuggling attempts]". Yes that's right, they're at -1 to add to the base 2d6 roll. (facepalm) Luckily, we're also reminded that between them United Earth and the Andorian Guard have thrown thirteen ships at Orion Union customs enforcement. That's compared to the ten ships the Orion Union has on the job.
Aerocommandos are "pending replenishment". (Ouch)
Office 36 apparently gives us a reroll every quarter plus a free Syndicate intelligence report.
Union Customs Enforcement has "[base -1 chance of catching out smuggling attempts]". Yes that's right, they're at -1 to add to the base 2d6 roll. (facepalm) Luckily, we're also reminded that between them United Earth and the Andorian Guard have thrown thirteen ships at Orion Union customs enforcement. That's compared to the ten ships the Orion Union has on the job.
Aerocommandos are "pending replenishment". (Ouch)
I get most of my 30 years war history through the lens of the Ring of Fire books.
Does this make the Federation the USE?:lol
- Location
- Central Standard Time
Can someone link the Syndicate metapost? I can't find it on my phone
- Location
- Australia
When you consider that the Syndicate was tooling around in warships that took an NX apart fairly casually back in the days of Archer (although that has the whiff of writer hand waving) then it does lead to a scenario that is a mix of Mafia-IRA-ISIL.
Actually something alarming that occurred to me, @Simon_Jester, by your meta time frame, is the Syndicate arc happening at the same time that the Surge in Iraq was happening...?
Actually something alarming that occurred to me, @Simon_Jester, by your meta time frame, is the Syndicate arc happening at the same time that the Surge in Iraq was happening...?
- Location
- Illinois
*eyetwitch*
I'm no native of this quest, but damn if that doesn't read like a daily iraq war headline.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Are you sure? I had thought that this was represented by 'Career Casualties' - though it wouldn't be the first time I had misunderstood some aspect of the game mechanics.
I'm fairly sure Career Casualties are a running tally of everyone who has died in Admiral Kahurangi's time as head of Starfleet.
The retirements/departing for any non death related reason may just be an already adjusted for figure on the Academy output.
i.e the Academy gives us 3 Officers, in reality it gave us 4, but 1 points worth of already existing officers departed Starfleet for some reason.
i.e the Academy gives us 3 Officers, in reality it gave us 4, but 1 points worth of already existing officers departed Starfleet for some reason.
With the whole Syndicate police action, I think we should put our research teams on personal equipment and medical. Given what our ground teams are doing, I think it would be horribly bad optics if we weren't working towards making sure that that not only did every Constable on the ground got the equipment they needed but that we were doing our best to allow them to come back home in one piece.
ClawClawBite
Mad Engineering!
- Location
- Seattle, WA
Science and engineering do seem to have career paths that do just that. People who run shipyards and stop there, science and medical people who stop at Lt. Cmdr.
However, ship captain is part of the path of "figuring out what to do with starships" that is the core of Starfleet missions, and you opt in to that path the day you accept being a command officer, no matter your background.
Explorer command, tactical, and a number of similar positions need to be filled by the peolke who best understand what it is like to command a ship.
Still, some people do make their own role. Spock is no longer chain of command, and is off doing his own thing doing research. That transition is just not something that is a default part of the process.
Night
Widow Null
- Location
- Hoff
It also has to be remembered we have hospital ships and Oberths that very likely are commanded by people with medical and science backgrounds; yes they probably took some other command track stuff, but still. If you're having a problem with science retention or the like, push building auxiliaries.