Why can't the Carddies tell us something?

Srsly. If the SU moved 2 large fleets and a nuclear sub to somewhere near DC and made 0 diplomacy, the result would be unlikely to look good.

If they start officially talking to us without establishing a clear position of power they're convinced they'll look weak. It's a dominance thing, their society being heavily shaped by the trauma that has led them to their present totalitarian and oppressive government.
 
Actually, Adventurous is a really great name for a Federation escort!

I've always liked naming ships after positive character traits and qualities, it's pleasantly British.

Why can't the Carddies tell us something?

Srsly. If the SU moved 2 large fleets and a nuclear sub to somewhere near DC and made 0 diplomacy, the result would be unlikely to look good.
The Soviets weren't a bunch of aliens who utterly fail at comprehending why they need to negotiate with people. I think the Cardassians may have this problem, as others mentioned a page or three ago, and again recently. This whole thing is them running around engaging in dominance games driven by the Cardassian strategic equivalent of the monkey brain.

The idea of just sitting down and actually talking with us, or even of telling us what the hell is going on, might well constitute an admission of weakness in their frame of reference. After which point, they expect, everything will start going wrong and they'll be humiliated and crushed. Because that's what their "deep common sense" tells them will happen, probably due to a mix of dictatorial government and maybe being just plain psychologically different than humans.

Now granted, our source on this is Jellico and Jellico's a hardliner, but at the same time, he came by that opinion honestly. That is roughly how Cardassians behaved for the first half of the 24th century in Star Trek. Otherwise, we wouldn't have TNG officers comparing them to 'wolves' who don't negotiate if they can think they have the advantage in the first place.

Plus, there is no equivalent of "if one flies, they all fly." The worst case scenario from the Cardies' point of view is a war that will probably not result in massive annihilation on their own side.





I had a thought. Sulu's idea about forming a Sixth Fleet from the member world ships in Orion space is actually not a bad idea, in the context of a true state of emergency brought on by a real Cardassian invasion.

If that should occur, we should revisit that idea.

Until then, well. I don't know if much of anyone read my "member world" ideas back when I was drawing up that mobilization plan that didn't pan out, but I mentioned in there that I strongly recommend we keep fighting the Syndicate while this is going on, unless we absolutely have to stop.

People have speculated that if this is a planned ruse on Cardassia's fault,* or if this is a Doctor Strangelove scenario, the Kadak-Tor may seek resupply in Syndicate territory. This may be absolutely necessary for them if they're aimed at a core Federation world. After all, their ship may well be able to proceed under cloak for several weeks, but that doesn't mean they can do so indefinitely without resupply and maintenance!

Also, there's the risk that the Syndicate, knowing we're effectively at war with them, may try to save themselves either by bringing about war between us and Cardassia (as a distraction). Or by aligning with Cardassians who were already going to attack us anyway and helping them, acting as a 'fifth column' within our space.
_____________________

*It just occurred to me that if the Cardassians think our sensors are super-good, they might have given up on trying to achieve surprise in the "we attack, you didn't know we were there" sense, figuring that we can see their fleet as it musters, no matter what they do. If so, then it would be even more appealing for them to create a confusing situation, one where we know exactly what is happening in a physical sense... but not why it is happening, in a tactical sense.

I imagine the Cardassian thinking going something like this:

[tailor]The secret to gaining surprise isn't to move before the enemy sees you. It's to move in a way the enemy doesn't understand, until the blow has landed.[/tailor]
 
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Well, the idea is/was that you do the deployment once. Once the deployment is done and the bulk of your ships have been assembled into fleets, there's a lot less ordering-around to do. As we are seeing here.

The advantage is that this means that once the fleets assemble, you're committed. If you think a bunch of ships went the wrong way during deployment, you can't easily back up and reassign them. So you don't have to angst about it. Decision-making reduces to canned options and everyone is happy.

That's why I said it should be done at a cadence - I didn't mean it has to be done every in-game week. In the Biophage state of emergency, we effectively could command forces around at 1 month intervals (although the majority of those orders took 2 months to resolve). We can have something similar here - every in-game month (4 weeks), we get a chance to revise our deployment plans.

Either way, though, it is not only undesirable but functionally impossible to have turn after turn of complicated fine-tuning.

Sure, but that only applies if we're revamping deployment plans every in-game week. Not every goal needs to be some super complex thing.

A good example is that anti-Syndicate force => Cardassian border option, or a variation of it. It's intentionally limited in scope, so the only thing we would need to decide is where to place such a fleet, and whether it should be split and joined up with other fleets.

The "slow down the Cardies" plan wasn't even Sulu's idea. Sulu's idea was to use some clever lawyering to justify amassing the anti-Syndicate member world ships to form a Sixth Fleet to go hunting Cardassians.

Blarg that's what I get for posting in a hurry. Whatever, similar applies to shifting anti-Syndicate resources to Cardassian threat. If intel can verify malicious intent and imminent threat, it's a decent option.

I've revised the New Orleans/ Gen 3 escort redesign. Version 1 has a single pod on a centreline pylon in a Nebula-esque style, Version 2 has one pod on each side of the saucer like the original New Orleans




Which do people prefer?

Well from this side view, version 1 looks better.

Here's an idea: you could have a version that has 2 mission pods that run parallel to the nacelles further back, so that it's like a 4 nacelle configuration, except the top two nacelles are the mission pods.
 
Given we have universal translators, naming ship classes things that have translations in all languages means we can avoid playing favorites. Ambassador Class is good. I had previously suggested Protector as a ship name, but it would be a great name for a combat/defence focused Escort too. While Stargazer was a cannon Constellation name, it would be a great (and translatable) Science Class name too.
 
Given we have universal translators, naming ship classes things that have translations in all languages means we can avoid playing favorites. Ambassador Class is good. I had previously suggested Protector as a ship name, but it would be a great name for a combat/defence focused Escort too. While Stargazer was a cannon Constellation name, it would be a great (and translatable) Science Class name too.
and also, once we start getting more of our own ethos in this game, we can start naming classes and ships after fallen heroes, battles/events, and other stuff.

Like I want an Excelsior or eventually an Ambassador to be named Maryam Ajam, preferably one slated for the Explorer Corps...but I'm not picky.
 
I don't think we'll ever have trouble naming ships for people or things.

But for ship classes, I'd like to pick something that lets the GM choose names that will be reasonably similar in 'theme.' Especially for something likely to be mass-produced like an escort.

So I'm still going to support Adventurous-class, or something with a similar ring to it.
 
I don't think we'll ever have trouble naming ships for people or things.

But for ship classes, I'd like to pick something that lets the GM choose names that will be reasonably similar in 'theme.' Especially for something likely to be mass-produced like an escort.

So I'm still going to support Adventurous-class, or something with a similar ring to it.
I will say, whatever else about the Ares, I like that name for a Heavy Cruiser Class, though hopefully with more Science.

It would also be a great political message to our opponents in the council and the remaining old guard Admirals.
 
...We don't really have opponents in the Council. We have the pacifists, who may disagree with us about how much firepower Starfleet needs, but they are not our enemies.

Also, exactly what "message" do you think we'd be sending? To me it sounds a lot like the 'message' would be "Fire us! We're turning into the same kind of idiot the last guy did!"
 
...We don't really have opponents in the Council. We have the pacifists, who may disagree with us about how much firepower Starfleet needs, but they are not our enemies.

I'm still rather proud of the bit in my first "Meet the Vice Admirals" omake where the Vice Admirals think about it and conclude that their enemies in Council are actually the Hawks, because the last thing they want to do is answer to people who think battles are 'glorious'.
 
I think our ship designs would be limited more by the available berth sizes rather than class size limits.

With our current choices of doctrines, we would need to get the most out of each ship. Quality over quantity.
 
The big naval architecture problem at the moment is that virtually all of our berths are Excelsior-sized (2.5 or three megatons), or escort/CL-sized (one megaton). There's no middle ground.

Now, we think about what that means in the context of "quality over quantity."

What that means is that any ship heavier than one million tons we design now or in the near-term future can only be built in the same berths as our Excelsiors. And as you say, @UbeOne , it needs to be the best design we can build.

Which means, since it competes directly with Excelsiors, that it's a waste of time to build unless it is superior TO our Excelsiors (in other words, a better explorer, in other words, the Ambassador-class). There's no point at all building a 1.5 or 1.8 megaton cruiser in our Excelsior berths, unless we can get Excelsior-level performance out of the cheaper medium cruiser.

And even then, given that we're talking about entirely new designs, it's not fair to compare the heavy cruiser to an Excelsior, we should be comparing it to an Ambassador. A 1.8 megaton cruiser as good as an Excelsior might still not make sense to build, if the alternative was to build an Ambassador in the same berth.*

So if we design a new ship class, it's either going to be a better explorer for construction in three-megaton berths, or it's going to be an escort or light cruiser of one million tons for construction in the lighter berths.

A better explorer would, again, be the Ambassador. A better light cruiser would be the Renaissance. So the only thing that's 'missing' from our plans for the next generation of ships is a better escort than the Centaur.

There really is not room for a 1.8 million ton cruiser hull.

None of this is going to change until:

1) We build a wealth of two-megaton cruiser berths that exist only to build heavy cruisers, or
2) We build a new, entirely different and larger set of explorer berths throughout Federation space, allowing us to use the three-megaton berths as "hand-me-downs" to construct heavy cruisers while the new berths build (really big) explorers.
_______________

*We appear to have 2.5 megaton berths at Andor and Tellar, but only one in each place. These present an interesting complication as they are too small to build Ambassadors... But two berths is not enough to support construction of an entire new ship class, not in numbers large enough to justify the political expense of starting the project.
 
The big naval architecture problem at the moment is that virtually all of our berths are Excelsior-sized (2.5 or three megatons), or escort/CL-sized (one megaton). There's no middle ground.

Now, we think about what that means in the context of "quality over quantity."

What that means is that any ship heavier than one million tons we design now or in the near-term future can only be built in the same berths as our Excelsiors. And as you say, @UbeOne , it needs to be the best design we can build.

Which means, since it competes directly with Excelsiors, that it's a waste of time to build unless it is superior TO our Excelsiors (in other words, a better explorer, in other words, the Ambassador-class). There's no point at all building a 1.5 or 1.8 megaton cruiser in our Excelsior berths, unless we can get Excelsior-level performance out of the cheaper medium cruiser.

And even then, given that we're talking about entirely new designs, it's not fair to compare the heavy cruiser to an Excelsior, we should be comparing it to an Ambassador. A 1.8 megaton cruiser as good as an Excelsior might still not make sense to build, if the alternative was to build an Ambassador in the same berth.*

So if we design a new ship class, it's either going to be a better explorer for construction in three-megaton berths, or it's going to be an escort or light cruiser of one million tons for construction in the lighter berths.

A better explorer would, again, be the Ambassador. A better light cruiser would be the Renaissance. So the only thing that's 'missing' from our plans for the next generation of ships is a better escort than the Centaur.

There really is not room for a 1.8 million ton cruiser hull.

None of this is going to change until:

1) We build a wealth of two-megaton cruiser berths that exist only to build heavy cruisers, or
2) We build a new, entirely different and larger set of explorer berths throughout Federation space, allowing us to use the three-megaton berths as "hand-me-downs" to construct heavy cruisers while the new berths build (really big) explorers.
_______________

*We appear to have 2.5 megaton berths at Andor and Tellar, but only one in each place. These present an interesting complication as they are too small to build Ambassadors... But two berths is not enough to support construction of an entire new ship class, not in numbers large enough to justify the political expense of starting the project.
We can ask for more 2.5mt berths.

Four should be enough to start a new class
 
Also, exactly what "message" do you think we'd be sending? To me it sounds a lot like the 'message' would be "Fire us! We're turning into the same kind of idiot the last guy did!"
The ONLY ship that I want anything to do with that has a science score less than 3 is the DEFIANT, and I eventually want to refit some Science into it at some point. My ideal for the Ares is build it up to be able to be a 'Redneck Rigged Explorer' with a science of about 4-5... and keep in mind, I only want to do this project after we get the Excelsior refit.
I'm still rather proud of the bit in my first "Meet the Vice Admirals" omake where the Vice Admirals think about it and conclude that their enemies in Council are actually the Hawks, because the last thing they want to do is answer to people who think battles are 'glorious'.
Actually, the Ares(with how I want it done) would be a greater message to the Hawks...Have it mix Combat and Science ability, and be a physical manifestation of how we can defend our bourders but still ply the infinite cosmos, and diplomance when needed.
 
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Which means, since it competes directly with Excelsiors, that it's a waste of time to build unless it is superior TO our Excelsiors (in other words, a better explorer, in other words, the Ambassador-class). There's no point at all building a 1.5 or 1.8 megaton cruiser in our Excelsior berths, unless we can get Excelsior-level performance out of the cheaper medium cruiser.

Costing less to build and taking fewer people to crew is a form of being "superior", mind you, even if the stats are less.

If you can get 5/6 the stats for 1/2 crew/cost then all of a sudden the alternative looks pretty "superior" for anything but actual Explorer Corps duties.
 
We can ask for more 2.5mt berths.

Four should be enough to start a new class
How many pp would that cost? The question is, is it worth it, and if so, when?

I'd say it's not worth it until we start planning for a cruiser to replace the Renaissance, that is to say some time around 2335 to 2340.

Costing less to build and taking fewer people to crew is a form of being "superior", mind you, even if the stats are less.

If you can get 5/6 the stats for 1/2 crew/cost then all of a sudden the alternative looks pretty "superior" for anything but actual Explorer Corps duties.
True, but I doubt a medium/heavy cruiser of the same generation as the Ambassador will be able to compete with the Ambassador on those terms.

A medium cruiser might well have Excelsior stats (since taking a Rennie and giving her a +1 boost in all categories does give her Excelsior stats, give or take a little). But a Rennie has 3/5/3 crew, whereas even an Ambassador has 6/6/6. It's unlikely that the medium cruiser will have "half" the crew requirements of an explorer, when the much smaller Renaissance doesn't.

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Actually, the Ares(with how I want it done) would be a greater message to the Hawks...Have it mix Combat and Science ability, and be a physical manifestation of how we can defend our bourders but still ply the infinite cosmos, and diplomance when needed.
Unlike, oh, all of our other ships... ;)
 
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2310.Q1.M1.W3 - Ghosts and Whispers
2310.Q1.M1.W3

Current Status Post - Sci-Fi - To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest) | Page 568
Nix's HQ Map - http://i.imgur.com/L5vEl1n.png


No on both counts


Point 1 Supercomputing Facility, Kestrel Station, Lunar Orbit

The dizzying array of plasma coolant systems seemed more appropriate to a warp core than a computing core. But in the heart of Kestrel Station, the home of Starfleet Intelligence, is a computing core of such breathtaking complexity that maintenance workers require hazardous environment suits to put up with the intense energy fields generated by the multitudes of duotronic processing cores. And right now it is bent to almost one task alone: cracking the diplomatic encryption on the intercepted conversation between the Dawiar and Cardassians.

Commodore T'Prau oversees the matter personally, sitting in a seat normally tended to by a humble Lieutenant, guiding her pride and joy through its paces.

They had already cracked the code sent by the Kadak-Tor to Cardassian Command. To their great disappointment, it had only been a trigger for a machine to send a second message internally, leaving them with a dead end. T'Prau was confident that this Dawiar-Cardassian conversation would be far more illuminating.

-

Bridge, USS Sarek, en route to Celesipos Outpost

"There, there it is again," mutters the junior science officer as she hunches over a console at the back of the Sarek's bridge.

"Something interesting, Lieutenant?" asks Commander Kwan, the senior science officer.

"Yes, Commander," says the Lieutenant, still muttering as they focus. "Look at these subspace field distortions."

Kwan folds his arms and leans in to carefully examine the console's results. "Peculiar but it seems like a natural pattern."

"That's what I thought so at first, sir. But while it's very slow, it's also very regular." She taps at the console and the frequency wave compresses and a very clear repeating pattern becomes immediately apparent. "Unless we've somehow missed a Class E tachyon emitting star, that looks artificial to me, sir. In particular, it looks like a single pair of kilo-cochrane warp coils in operation. And there's more. If we go back half an hour ... there."

"Neutron radiation." Kwan straightens up looks the data over one more time. "Captain? Could you take a look at this?" he calls.

Captain Straak silently gets up from his command chair and moves across to the science station. Kwan gestures to the screen, and for a minute Straak just reads and considers the data. "Helm," he calls when he finally breaks his silence.

"Yes, Captain?"

"New course, zero-one-seven mark zero-zero-five. Warp Factor Nine. Initiate."


-

Starfleet Command


You look up from your desk as Scott Linderley walks into your office. Your eyes narrow dangerously.

"Admiral Kahurangi, I have something for you," he says, his presentation pure parade ground formality. The Rear Admiral has been on eggshells since your clash at the start of this mess, clearly knowing he had very little rope left.

"Spit it out then," you reply.

"We've cracked the intercept from the S'harien," he announces. "It might shed some light on this matter."

A tense smile crosses your face. "Let's hope so."

"Computer, playback recording Rabbit-Two-Three-Nine-Zero."

"Cardassian vessel, this is the Dawiar cruiser Zakzigil. State your reason for staying on Dawiar borders."

"This is the CDF
Ronagot. We are still in unclaimed space, Dawiar friends, and need give no answer to anyone."

"Even so,
Ronagot, the great Thanes require me to get an answer from you."

"Tell your Thanes there is nothing here to be concerned about. The Cardassian fleet is attempting to find a ship that has gone missing with a Legate's son aboard."

"With half your fleet?"

"Cardassian males can get very ... emotional and can do things like this, especially for family."

"Understood, Ronagot. Perhaps the Dawiar Fleet may help?"

"Unfortunately, no,
Zakzigil. Our missing ship is very difficult to detect on sensors by design, and Dawiar sensorts would not be up for the task."

You drum your fingers along the desk. "A missing ship, is it? Do you have any of the Cardassian intercepts cracked yet?"

"No, Admiral," admits Linderley. "Unfortunately, the Cardassian full naval cipher is very slow-going."

You folder your arms and grimace. "Well, at least we know what they'd like people to think."

[ ][FLEET] Any Fleet Orders?

-

The Federation Diplomatic Service would like to publicly distribute that the Cardassians have lost control of a cloaked vessel. It is likely to help make your affiliates more alert to the danger, but it may have the side effect of inflaming tensions with the Cardassians by calling attention to a point of "weakness".

[ ][NEWS] Allow
[ ][NEWS] Refuse

In other news, the diplomats believe that they are close to establishing a line of communication with the Cardassian Union through the assistance of the Seyek and Qloath. Our Xenopsychologists believe that a large part of the reason for the great difficulty in establishing communications is that the Cardassians to date have been unable to establish any markers of cultural, scientific, or military precedence over the Federation. The concept of negotiating on a level playing field is seemingly alien to them. In Cardassian diplomact, at least in the current cultural, negotiations consist purely of the strong dictating terms to the weak.


-



Aboard Runabout BG-1, High-Speed Starfleet Intelligence Command Runabout

"So where are we now?" asks Kuznetsova.

"Just passing Ord Grind Duk now, Commander," replies the runabout's pilot, a pixie-like human Lieutenant. "We'll be at Ferasa in just a jiffy! Or a week, really, but it'll seem like a jiffy."

"Just write a memo next time," says Kuznetsova with a sigh as she turns around to go back to the commons room with Usha to continue their studies.

-

=====

Cardassian Fleet Movements
Furthest possible extent of Kadak-Tor's progress: -4d or -7f (4 Squares)
Believed to be -4d based on Cardassian fleet movements

Starbase at Apinae reports anomalous warp signature readings in the vicinity of 2f.

Group B is holding position at the Aries Expanse near Dawiar space.

Cardassian Group C and D are now in -4e. Sensor readings confirm:
2 Kaldar
2 Jaldun
2 Takaaki Combat Variant
1 Medium Escort

Cardassian Group E+F have moved to Sub-Sector -3g and linked up, with approximately 6 ships.

Starfleet Movements
Enterprise has joined S'harien at Celesipos Station. USS Sarek has not arrived.


1st Fleet has arrived in Vega
2nd Fleet has arrived in Tales Har
3rd Fleet has arrived in Ord Grind Duk - has been joined by reinforcements
4th Fleet has just arrived in Pygmalion 337 - has been joined by reinforcements
5th Fleet has arrived in 21 Themis

KBZ Fleet has arrived at Biroth
 
A medium cruiser might well have Excelsior stats (since taking a Rennie and giving her a +1 boost in all categories does give her Excelsior stats, give or take a little). But a Rennie has 3/5/3 crew, whereas even an Ambassador has 6/6/6. It's unlikely that the medium cruiser will have "half" the crew requirements of an explorer, when the much smaller Renaissance doesn't.

C7 S5 H6 L6 P4 D6 in 1.8mt is easy to do, costs 200BR/120SR. Cheaper, stronger, very likely to use less crew then a Excelsior given it's 500kt lighter.

Some 2(.5)mt/3mt berth should really be on the agenda. We're falling behind the rat race there. A new <=3mt Explorer and 1.5-2.0mt cruiser should be on the radar. Building anything sub C5 save for a science ship is stupid at this point.
 
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I think the contract needs investigation by Enterprise and Mr. Z(long hard to spell last name OP sensor op).
 
C7 S5 H6 L6 P4 D6 in 1.8mt is easy to do, costs 200BR/120SR. Cheaper, stronger, very likely to use less crew then a Excelsior given it's 500kt lighter.

Some 2(.5)mt/3mt berth should really be on the agenda. We're falling behind the rat race there. A new <=3mt Explorer and 1.5-2.0mt cruiser should be on the radar. Building anything sub C5 save for a science ship is stupid at this point.
Escort?

A new sub-3mt explorer is either the Ambassador or the Excelsior refit.
 
It does seem like a Red October Scenario. Seems to have even cribbed a few scenes from the book.

But the GM might be throwing us off with the references and they ship sin't trying to defect, but is actually trying to nuke the Earth.
 
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