If the Romulans felt like doing us a favor, they would have just told us something. Anything.
They didn't.
And maybe they did.

And it fell into the hands of someone compromised, and since then they've been trying to figure out how bad the problem is.
After all, we literally have Council-level infiltration right now. How many other members of our government and military have Singers in their heads? Cassiopeia didn't warn about personnel compromise for kicks.

They wouldn't be doing us a favor by telling us after all. It's purely selfish foreign policy implementation.

Do consider precisely how much of a disaster it would be for the Romulan Empire to have a peer power with the foreign policy of the Harmony literally eat the Federation, or even a chunk of the Federation's industrial capacity from the inside out.
They don't like what the Federation stands for, but the Feddies are much better neighbors than the Harmony would be.
 
Yeah, pro-transhumanist posters, that's something else you can thank the Harmony for. This will only intensify the Federation's prejudice against such things.
I believe that only Humans have that prejudice? Not Federation as a whole.

Though there does seem to be something about Star Trek that makes augments often go wrong...

The Harmony knows where many of our most critical military component production nodes are located, and may have software or even personnel penetration of their security.

It doesn't do much good for us to have 200 berths if we can't produce 200 warp cores to put in 200 ships in a timely manner.

And they have many months in which they could exploit their intel advantage over us before our first wave of production comes out. I'm not saying they could win, but they could be far, FAR more troublesome to defeat than we'd expect given the industrial advantage. Especially given that the public relations front will be... tricky. Proving the authenticity of our claims will be rough.
Even if they know where they are and how they are secured, that still does not make sabotaging them easy. They are all over the Federation, and heavily secured.

Also, we now know that they know, and can quickly reinforce those sites and change up their security arrangements to obsolete their info.

As for them reading our mail, that has lost the majority of its impact now that we know about it. Still a great blow, but there are plenty ways to minimize that advantage in wartime, such as with physical one time pads. There are ways.

As for proving the authenticity of our claims, we are downloading evidence for everything that we find. And lots of stuff should be easy to prove now that we know what to look for and can identify that stupidly stealthy psy-nanotech bulls**t.

I still cant believe that we were incapable of noticing the stuff. Looks like our medical security checks need major updates, Federation wide.

In this instance there is considerable crossover. Your final actions here still need to keep in mind that Singers are still sentient lifeforms (much as data is) and thus are not valid extermination targets.
I disagree with this. While extermination is definitely not UFPs first choice, not even close, I do believe that we have the right to extinct the Singers if we can not find a better way.

If its a choice between genociding them and letting them continue with their shenanigans, then regretfully, genocide away I say.

Super intelligent mind controlling super hackers with a laundry list of warcrimes can not be allowed to continue doing that stuff, and are rather difficult to contain.

If the Romulans felt like doing us a favor, they would have just told us something. Anything.

They didn't.

Perhaps they feared that we were compromised, and felt that they couldn't take the risk of potentially tipping their hand to the HoH and revealing how much they had figured out. More likely, however, is that the Romulans see the massive expansion of the Federation as an alarming development and would love to see us stumble before we eclipse the Star Empire entirely.
I suspect that they did not have a proof, and in their paranoia did not believe that we would believe their word on the matter.

They might not even know about the Singers, just that there is something shady going on with minds and nanotech.
 
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Regarding finding the implants, our normal systems do not appear to be able to find the receive-only versions.

However, someone we should strongly suspect was carrying a real Singer was very careful to avoid our medical teams, implying the send-capable version of the hardware is much easier to detect ...
 
Regarding finding the implants, our normal systems do not appear to be able to find the receive-only versions.
However, someone we should strongly suspect was carrying a real Singer was very careful to avoid our medical teams, implying the send-capable version of the hardware is much easier to detect ...
In order to control someone, your implants need to be able to both send data back and receive it as standard capability.
Receive sensory data, and send complex orders. We saw evidence of this during the Eye of Chaos incident, when one or more Singers were pretty clearly in two-way control of the unconscious Horizonites.

Being able to carry a Singer, OTOH, probably requires several orders more of sophistication and expense. Complex psionic/data entities can't exactly fit into standard computer memory, else they wouldn't need the fuckoff huge computers we've seen them around. And the Padani wouldn't have managed to kill Singers by killing their ships, as they'd simply jump to other .

So while I agree that our current equipment can't find their standard implants, it's not because they are readonly.
 
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One thing I want to point out, the Padani had experience with a Rogue AI event -- it's possible that some of the Singers killed during the Commonwealth-Harmony War were killed by way of electronic warfare.
 
I disagree with this. While extermination is definitely not UFPs first choice, not even close, I do believe that we have the right to extinct the Singers if we can not find a better way.

If its a choice between genociding them and letting them continue with their shenanigans, then regretfully, genocide away I say.

Super intelligent mind controlling super hackers with a laundry list of warcrimes can not be allowed to continue doing that stuff, and are rather difficult to contain.
Yeah but it's Star Trek. "Finding a better way" is one of the basic themes of the setting.
 
Regarding finding the implants, our normal systems do not appear to be able to find the receive-only versions.

However, someone we should strongly suspect was carrying a real Singer was very careful to avoid our medical teams, implying the send-capable version of the hardware is much easier to detect ...
Consider:
"Your body is aboard the black site" says Zarael, gesturing towards a low bench opposite her, and you sit down, "I've convinced the local administrator to upgrade my current 'avatar forms'." she hits you with a reassuring smile that you appreciate, "You are currently linked to a section of the Harmony"
Meat robots and hosts, which the Avatar forms (which the publicly known Singers are) seem to be, require extensive "Upgrades".

Those would be hella obvious to our medical scanners.

The implants need both send and receive to work as they do, just, the conscious mind cant send things currently, only receive. Which somehow makes the receiving unnoticeable.

The Singers wouldn't be able to read minds without that function.

Yeah but it's Star Trek. "Finding a better way" is one of the basic themes of the setting.
Oh, I very much doubt that it would come to genocide. I was arguing morality, not what I expect to happen.

What I hope for is us gaining the ability to force the Send switch on in implants, or disabling them. Ideally all at once or in large groups.


Edit: Something that I just realized might be confusing people.

Singers are not uploads. They are psychic entities possessing computers.

Uploads could fork and archive, and thus have unlimited numbers (so long as they have enough computing hardware) and be near impossible to kill or contain.

Singers can only be in one place at a time. Blow up the computers that they are possessing, and they are dead.
 
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Consider:

Meat robots and hosts, which the Avatar forms (which the publicly known Singers are) seem to be, require extensive "Upgrades".

Those would be hella obvious to our medical scanners.

The implants need both send and receive to work as they do, just, the conscious mind cant send things currently, only receive. Which someone makes the receiving unnoticeable.

The Singers wouldn't be able to read minds without that function.


Oh, I very much doubt that it would come to genocide. I was arguing morality, not what I expect to happen.

What I hope for is us gaining the ability to force the Send switch on in implants, or disabling them. Ideally all at once or in large groups.


Edit: Something that I just realized might be confusing people.

Singers are not uploads. They are psychic entities possessing computers.

Uploads could fork and archive, and thus have unlimited numbers (so long as they have enough computing hardware) and be near impossible to kill or contain.

Singers can only be in one place at a time. Blow up the computers that they are possessing, and they are dead.

If this is the case then no wonder their trying so hard to get the arcadians under control. Their mentats were a serious threat. Not only were they capable of creating technology able to threaten them, the super nova weapon would have been just as bad if not worse for them as it would have been for us, they also prevented the singers from infiltrating the empire. Remember the entire reason the mentats existed was because the arcadians had a near doomsday scenario with ai, causing them to abandon advanced computing and rely on mentats. Kinda hard to infiltrate a society that literally hates the infrastructure you need to infiltrate them, and im betting that mentats are too far gone to coop on top of the fact that the arcadians dont do cybernetics would make them even more of a pain. Our actions to take out the mentats while justified and right gave the singers the opening they needed to crack open the arcadians.
 
THe issue here is going to be how we release the data, we are infiltrated to a high level to boot!
We need to know how to detect implants, and here is the nightmare scenario: are all implants the same? are they camouflaged as part of other cybernetic implants? or do they look organic enough to fool most scans?
We believe there is *at least* one councilor compromised, but how many of their aides clerks and staffers? how much of our bureaucracy has been compromised?

Before we go public, we need to know friend from Trojan horse (unwilling) from foe or else we risk the HOH activating their sleepers to do us harm, and with the council, with them reading our mails and having assets in the bureaucracy, they could do a lot of harm to us, even without exposing their agents in the act (so, less suicide bomber and more malice and misdirection)

And we might need plans in place if the council is more penetrated than we think, specially given our history with these sort of rolls with the HoH.

As for the wider question - I'm positive we've mentioned it in thread, but I can't remember exactly when. The convo in discord happened in discord because the discord came off of the Stop-Oneiros-Strangling-Someone Lock first.

Anyway - as in most quests, dice still play a crucial role. Now, TBG gets a bit odd in terms of player agency, because you are not stepping into the role of Starfleet as an atavistic whole, but simply as the commander, following them as they are picked, serve, and retire. Shey is the fourth thus far (Kahurangi, Sousa, Sulu, ch'Tharvasse).

A certain degree of loss of player agency is actually woven into the fabric of the game from the ground up. You are the commander who has to use the levers available to find the right people, to equip them, to send them into harms way, and then hope that none of them let a teacup pig piss in a sacred grove triggering a decade long conflict killing thousands collapsing into a revolution that kills tens of thousands. Now, some parts maybe could have been handled a bit better as far as conveying that this was the case - unfortunately, when it comes down to it, in some cases we can only put up "Event failed" because putting [Event failed, Harmony of Horizon takes another step into infiltrating your computer core production plants to preload copies onto every ship entering service or being refit] kinda gives the game away. Something of an extreme example, of course. But at the time it seemed to us we couldn't very well say that the conspiracy eluded your crews again without giving a form of IC confirmation. Against other foes, missing that many checks usually has some Very Visible Consequences, usually in the form of explosions.

In the end we went with the forced narrative arc because of the plumb bad luck.

But yeah, player agency is tricky here. Giving you options that shouldn't be available to Commander, Starfleet undercuts some key game elements, so we hate doing it.

Ah but you forget the tradition of Starfleet oficers going well past their remits and vastly overreaching their mandates (admitedly, with Flag officers it is generally because they are either planning a "bad thing" or are nominally good people but misguided or biased in some fashion) it would be a great fun to subert an Admiral going almost renegade these way (no, Kirk doesn't count, he never wanted to be an Admiral)

It could have been the harbinger of the Borg!

Too gooey for them, maybe a case of space clap grown sentient (something, something, something, followed Kirk home, paternity suit :p)

Yes, but if it only works on people who have the implant, we just need to screen for the implant. The problem is if it doesn't and they can mind-control people not implanted... though if that were the case I'd expect them to spam the capability harder.

Yeah, we need a way to ID the implant or else this is going to go into full on paranoia (and possibly an empire quest)
 
If the Romulans felt like doing us a favor, they would have just told us something. Anything.

They didn't.

Perhaps they feared that we were compromised, and felt that they couldn't take the risk of potentially tipping their hand to the HoH and revealing how much they had figured out. More likely, however, is that the Romulans see the massive expansion of the Federation as an alarming development and would love to see us stumble before we eclipse the Star Empire entirely.
... the Federation getting eaten by the Harmony wouldn't be something a Romulan would want to happen.
 
Questions about what Harmony implants look like and how they work (in this modern era) are likely to be answered under, "What are Singers exactly and how do they do what they do."

The problem here that being able to Id the implants is going to be critical in how we release the data, without that things are going to become far trickier (hellishly tricky on the intel branch, that is for sure) and measures that could be implemented to ensure our top brass (and I include all the high ups of the federation, civilian or otherwise here) remain influence free might be rather Big Brother in its spirit (note I mean the high brass only, maybe the staffers and assistants, not the general public, which is a no go for the federation, we can always try to sell the panopticon as more oversight of positions of authority, assuming we can insure the operators or the systems haven't been compromised either)
 
We routinely disassemble and reassemble people.

If these implants can be identified and the pattern added to Transporter safety filters- so people are reconstructed after any transport without them- that may be a part of the solution.
 
We routinely disassemble and reassemble people.

If these implants can be identified and the pattern added to Transporter safety filters- so people are reconstructed after any transport without them- that may be a part of the solution.
I do like that thought. Maybe a vaccine1​, or an additional cybernetic immune system depending, too so we don't have to keep clearing people again and again.


1: You say impossible, I say biophage.
 
I do like that thought. Maybe a vaccine1​, or an additional cybernetic immune system depending, too so we don't have to keep clearing people again and again.

1: You say impossible, I say biophage.
Hunter nanites. Artificial immune systems, basically.

Pretty sure that we dont have that tech. UFP does not do much with nano or augmentation.

Conventional vaccine is teaching your immune system to recognize the disease as an enemy. Pretty sure that magic invisible easily mass producible psy-nanotech MMI implants wouldn't be stopped by most species immune systems, especially with intelligent designers to adjust the nanites.
 
Hunter nanites. Artificial immune systems, basically.

Pretty sure that we dont have that tech. UFP does not do much with nano or augmentation.

Conventional vaccine is teaching your immune system to recognize the disease as an enemy. Pretty sure that magic invisible easily mass producible psy-nanotech MMI implants wouldn't be stopped by most species immune systems, especially with intelligent designers to adjust the nanites.

Just study the Yan-Ros' immune systems. They mentioned having trouble with them.
 
Just study the Yan-Ros' immune systems. They mentioned having trouble with them.

Having trouble with could mean anything from doesn't work to causes cancer that kills the subject within a week of implantation. Also Yan-Ros physiology is quite different from most humanoids, so it may not be straightforward to reproduce.
 
Pretty sure that we dont have that tech. UFP does not do much with nano or augmentation.

Conventional vaccine is teaching your immune system to recognize the disease as an enemy.

No, it's anything that'll keep you safe from it. And we don't do just conventional vaccines. We were able to figure out how to vaccinate against the Biophage, which wholly outmatched any natural immune system. That almost certainly took either nanotech or exotic isotope doping people in ways that should have caused omnicancer in twenty years...but didn't. I submit you are greatly underestimating the UFP's medical tech and willingness to reach for such technology.
 
Having trouble with could mean anything from doesn't work to causes cancer that kills the subject within a week of implantation. Also Yan-Ros physiology is quite different from most humanoids, so it may not be straightforward to reproduce.
Remember: It is against regulations to die while under the care of Starfleet medical personnel.
The Romulans know this. The Klingons know this. The Cardassians are starting to internalize it. The Biophage was stamped out because of it.
The doctors look at Thanatos and say one thing, "Not today Death. Not today!"
Will the technobabble be thick enough to walk on? Oh yes.
Will some outliers perhaps need tricky and careful transporter work instead? Quite possible.
Will the cyberized groups (Orions, Gaeni) need antivirus/malware updates? Sure will!
Also, herd immunity still has solid potentials to make use of here. Not as good as it would with a dumb dissease, but the principles are still sound.

Now that we have actual actionable intelligence, we can sit down, crack our knuckles and get to work rolling the problems up.
 
I wonder how much of the Bolian government is under control of the singers by now. It goes without saying that the group that abducted Thuir is probably also under the singers control as well. When this gets out and it needs to be gotten out to the general public as soon as possible there will be far reaching consequences for everyone involved including the Bolians.
 
Did Thuir ever go through any Harmony medical procedures, inoculations, or screens? He may have been subverted in the process.
 
Did Thuir ever go through any Harmony medical procedures, inoculations, or screens? He may have been subverted in the process.
If he didn't before getting kidnapped he sure has now. Speaking of, we're going to need a plan to get him out of there, and probably to de-Singer him. Time to borrow a cloak from the Romulans!
 
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