I like the idea of modules being good, but not so great that we use them on everything. All our ships having modules would be kind of... aesthetically sadness-making, and many basically successful canon ship designs we've seen (including alien ones) don't have modules.
 
A little realpolitik talk.

If we're too aggressive/successful with the minor species on the border zone, we might provoke the war with the Cardassians into turning hot before we area ready. And we are so not ready. We have been warned a lot about that in the intelligence briefings, that there may come a point where if we are trying to 'save' everyone from Cardassian domination we will be forced into war. I wouldn't want to fight a war until four years out at the absolute soonest, and ten years would be far preferable.

And I know I'm going to get some pushback on this, but Cardassian domination probably isn't the worst thing in the universe. We're not dooming these species to being eaten by the Biophage or absorbed by the Borg. In all likelihood, they won't be occupied like Bajor was... that seems to have been something of an exception. It's more that they will secondary client state dominated by a strong neighbor, only able to take the mining/colony assets they are allowed to and making sure their foreign policy toes the Cardassian line. It's not hell.

So while we're not going to actively "give" groups to the Cardassians, maybe it wouldn't be the worst idea to make a list that we won't try so hard on with diplomatic pushes. Groups that the Cardassians can try with, feel like they're having a success, and not feel so pressured. That, more than anything else, would be a reason not to push the absolute hardest we can with all of the non-affiliate border states.
 
And I know I'm going to get some pushback on this, but Cardassian domination probably isn't the worst thing in the universe. We're not dooming these species to being eaten by the Biophage or absorbed by the Borg. In all likelihood, they won't be occupied like Bajor was... that seems to have been something of an exception. It's more that they will secondary client state dominated by a strong neighbor, only able to take the mining/colony assets they are allowed to and making sure their foreign policy toes the Cardassian line. It's not hell.
The Cardassian MO, at least as far as we know, is to set up a puppet government.

And living under a puppet government is great!

So great.

We should avoid outright war but again, I am not interested in making it easy for the Cardassians to acquire their lebensraum.
 
A little realpolitik talk.

If we're too aggressive/successful with the minor species on the border zone, we might provoke the war with the Cardassians into turning hot before we area ready. And we are so not ready. We have been warned a lot about that in the intelligence briefings, that there may come a point where if we are trying to 'save' everyone from Cardassian domination we will be forced into war. I wouldn't want to fight a war until four years out at the absolute soonest, and ten years would be far preferable.

And I know I'm going to get some pushback on this, but Cardassian domination probably isn't the worst thing in the universe. We're not dooming these species to being eaten by the Biophage or absorbed by the Borg. In all likelihood, they won't be occupied like Bajor was... that seems to have been something of an exception. It's more that they will secondary client state dominated by a strong neighbor, only able to take the mining/colony assets they are allowed to and making sure their foreign policy toes the Cardassian line. It's not hell.

So while we're not going to actively "give" groups to the Cardassians, maybe it wouldn't be the worst idea to make a list that we won't try so hard on with diplomatic pushes. Groups that the Cardassians can try with, feel like they're having a success, and not feel so pressured. That, more than anything else, would be a reason not to push the absolute hardest we can with all of the non-affiliate border states.

A lot of these minor powers have not-insignificant military assets of their own. If we get enough of them, the Cardassians would be extremely foolish to go to war. That said, we might not be able to get enough of them before the cardies panic and attack, so making a list of priorities would be a good idea.

Blue are people we can't give up, white are ones we can consider giving up, yellow are ones we shouldn't even bother trying to keep.

Apiata: we're already committed here, and they're too strategically useful to give up anyway.
Indorians: see above, plus the added caveat of their space occupying a narrow distance right between us and the Cardies.
Dawiar: these guys are at war with an affiliate of ours, and they're right up against our border. We can't let them stay in the Cardie sphere of influence. Its tricky, since the Cardassians have already courted them, but I don't think we can afford to let them keep this one.

Qloath: right in the middle of the contested area, and we have no current interests with them. That said, they're a fellow culture of explorers and it would be a shame to not incorporate them.
Seyek: as above, plus the added factor of their society being somewhat unpalatable by our standards (possibly moreso than the Apiata).
Graetaria: they're uncomfortably near our border, but they're also nonviolent so its doubtful the Cardassians would put them up to mischief.
Yrillians: we know pretty much nothing about these guys, but they're in the same boat as the Graetaria.
Sydraxians: if we're going to throw the Cardassians a bone or two in the name of appeasement, then we shouldn't tug at this one...especially since we'll be trying to take the Dawiar.

I'm thinking that we can afford to let the spoonheads keep the Sydraxians, Yrillians, Graetarians, and Seyek, if we must appease them. I'd rather keep the Qloath if at all possible, based on what we know of them so far, but if we lose them its not the end of the world.

...alternatively, we could stall for a few more years, build up our fleet, and then affiliate with all of them after letting the Cardassian Union's accumulated aggressions fall back upon it in a literal rain of antimatter. That could also be nice.
 
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The more we push the spoons, the less resources they will have in case of war.

But as a military dictatorship, a larger chunk of their budget goes to the military than Starfleet. And if we back them into a corner, they may come to the conclusion war is the best option. It's a delicate balance.
 
Seyek: as above, plus the added factor of their society being somewhat unpalatable by our standards (possibly moreso than the Apiata).
Not to try to stan for my OC's here but like, let's do a quick comparison:

SEYEK: Went full R2P and Democratic Peace Theory on an absolute theocratic monarchy, then absorbed them. Made radical changes to their democracy, including installing a no-shit sovereign, in an attempt to quell the unrest they Mr. Magoo'd their way into. Possibly learned their lesson. More 'Unpalatable' than the

APIATA: Huge biological, gender, and social stratification, still don't know if workers could function sans queens in a mixed crew.

idk, I know which group seems more Federation-like.
 
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I think war with the Cardassian Union is an inevitability, both for in-game reasons and out-of-game reasons. "When" however remains a real question. Looking at the ships we have in the pipeline and the technologies and doctrines we're developing, I'd say it's an almost sure bet that the longer we can hold it off the better a position the Federation will be in. Sure the Cardassians will be researching and building ships as well, but I'm confident we can outdo them on that front. It's not just Starfleet, either. We have Home Fleets laying down explorers and upgrading. Out Affiliates are building fast. Everyone on some level seems to understand that war is on its way and they best get as big a fleet as they can before the storm arrives.

Feels like the build-up to WWI in a lot of ways. Now what will be the damn fool incident in the Cardassian Border Zone that sets it off?
 
Not to try to stan for my OC's here but like, let's do a quick comparison:

SEYEK: Went full R2P and Democratic Peace Theory on an absolute monarchy, then absorbed them. Made radical changes to their democracy, including installing a no-shit sovereign, in an attempt to quell the unrest they Mr. Magoo'd their way into. Possibly learned their lesson. More 'Unpalatable' than the

APIATA: Huge biological, gender, and social stratification, still don't know if workers could function sans queens in a mixed crew.

idk, I know which group seems more Federation-like.

One important difference is that the Seyek chose to conquer another species unprovoked, even if their treatment of them afterward was admittedly pretty good.

I refuse to pass judgement on the Apiata for being naturally eusocial, that's the kind of prejudice that is completely inimical to Federation ideals. The thing to remember here is that 99+% of the workers don't WANT to be equal to the queens, and indeed are biologically incapable of wanting that. The only actual problems here are their treatment of the drones and "defective" workers, which I think we can persuade them to improve.

We should also look at the issue of where the misdeeds of each of these races are being directed. The Seyek have paternalistic and imperialistic attitudes toward outsiders; attitudes which could spread within the Federation, and which might influence Seyek leaders who rise to power in the federal government or starfleet. The Apiatas' social problems are only relevant within Apiata society, and have no risk of spreading beyond it or influencing federal policy in a negative way.

Finally, we should consider what will likely happen to each them if they fall under the Cardassians' sway. The Seyek, so far as we know, have had neither friendly nor hostile dealings with the Cardassians. The Apiata have had their foragers attacked and even destroyed repeatedly by CDF vessels, and the Cardassians will likely punish them for causing them as much trouble as they now have.


Keep in mind, I think that ideally we should include them both and build a whole generation of new starbases out of CDF scrap metal. This is all just what to do IF we're unfortunately forced to split the CBZ.
 
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Feels like the build-up to WWI in a lot of ways. Now what will be the damn fool incident in the Cardassian Border Zone that sets it off?
You seem to be trying to push the idea that it's going to be us who causes the incident. I feel the opposite. If it's any incident causes war, it's going to be something the Cardassians to do us to drag us in. In fact, it feels like they are desperately trying everything they can think of to get us to react, up to and including:
  • Trying to blow up a fucking ratification delegation
  • Trying to blow up our premier explorer
  • Blowing up one of our ambassadors by proxy
Under normal circumstances any one of these things would be a damn fool act that would enrage us. Like, Central Command must be going insane trying to figure out how to make us declare war.
 
I do not want to give the Seyek to the cardassians and the new Qloath are too interesting to pass up. of course the Seyek are now only a single push from becoming affiliates so they need to be one of the ones we do. if we do any affiliates I would suggest ones below 220 in relations
 
One important difference is that the Seyek chose to conquer another species unprovoked, even if their treatment of them afterward was admittedly pretty good.
There were four prior wars between the Seyek and the Fiiral before the Seyek integrated them. I'll leave it to the GM to decide who shot first (EDIT: unless I get a briefing report in before then :V :V), but it's not like the Seyek just wandered over to the Fiiral homeworld one day and said "this is mine now" for no raisin.
 
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You seem to be trying to push the idea that it's going to be us who causes the incident. I feel the opposite. If it's any incident causes war, it's going to be something the Cardassians to do us to drag us in. In fact, it feels like they are desperately trying everything they can think of to get us to react, up to and including:
  • Trying to blow up a fucking ratification delegation
  • Trying to blow up our premier explorer
  • Blowing up one of our ambassadors by proxy
Under normal circumstances any one of these things would be a damn fool act that would enrage us. Like, Central Command must be going insane trying to figure out how to make us declare war.

I think it's more likely that there are people working in Central Command who have accurately assessed our growth curve versus theirs and know they have to go to war sooner rather than later, but they evidently aren't able to muster sufficient support or they would just... you know, declare war. And we keep frustrating them by not taking the bait. Oh, and-

You seem to be trying to push the idea that it's going to be us who causes the incident. I feel the opposite.

"Cause" in the sense of moral responsibility, no. "Cause" in the sense of giving those clear-eyed forecasters in Central Command enough political juice to get their way? Maybe.
 
"Cause" in the sense of moral responsibility, no. "Cause" in the sense of giving those clear-eyed forecasters in Central Command enough political juice to get their way? Maybe.
They had enough juice the instant we first fired on their ship, and again when the Enterprise destroyed one of their more powerful assets and crippled another. They're a totalitarian state, they can twist that however they want.

I think they want to goad us to offensive action against them because they know that'll divide the member states and affiliates, who are the ice under the water with member fleets. If they can fight just Starfleet, they can win. If they have to fight the entire Federation, well...

They may have even planned the Dawiar thing to delay another powerful member (after Amarkia) from being ratified.
 
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You seem to be trying to push the idea that it's going to be us who causes the incident. I feel the opposite. If it's any incident causes war, it's going to be something the Cardassians to do us to drag us in. In fact, it feels like they are desperately trying everything they can think of to get us to react, up to and including:
  • Trying to blow up a fucking ratification delegation
  • Trying to blow up our premier explorer
  • Blowing up one of our ambassadors by proxy
Under normal circumstances any one of these things would be a damn fool act that would enrage us. Like, Central Command must be going insane trying to figure out how to make us declare war.

In a vacuum, yes. But the Cardassians either know that a) the Federation goes out of its way to avoid war, or b) we don't have a big enough fleet to beat them at this point, and possibly both. Thus, they rightly concluded that they can do shit like this to keep low level hostilities burning so that they can play themselves off of us to get client races.

If they really wanted war, they'd just invade.
 
It seems to me that Central Command is trying to grab as much stuff (read: colonies and border clients) as they can without triggering war. I believe they are mostly ignorant of the growth curve and operating under the assumption that our culture will back down in nearly every circumstance. That's why their plots are so brazen and direct.
 
besides, it sounds like the fiiral where conquered a long time ago. It would be silly to hold a races past against them when you consider the kind of horrific crap humans used to get up to.
 
They had enough juice the instant we first fired on their ship, and again when the Enterprise destroyed one of their more powerful assets and crippled another. They're a totalitarian state, they can twist that however they want.

Internal juice. Internal. They're going to their bosses saying, Boss, Boss, we got start the war NOW because the Federation has four heavy cruiser factories running constantly." Their bosses are going, "Nah, nah, we don't want to get our ships blown up even if we win. Let's keep things low key, grab what we can for now."

I think they want to goad us to offensive action against them because they know that'll divide the member states and affiliates, who are the ice under the water with member fleets.

I disagree. I think that's reading too deeply into plans that probably aren't that well thought out. They do it because they honestly think (or at least the guy in charge of each operation thinks) that he can get away with it.
 
In a vacuum, yes. But the Cardassians either know that a) the Federation goes out of its way to avoid war, or b) we don't have a big enough fleet to beat them at this point, and possibly both. Thus, they rightly concluded that they can do shit like this to keep low level hostilities burning so that they can play themselves off of us to get client races.

If they really wanted war, they'd just invade.
OR this is them get in to position. they could have some builds finishing in the next few years and also see low level skirmishes as a way to tilt the field their way. combined with gaining resources from new members and denying us the same.
 
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