To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)

[SuperSonicSound]

My suggestion is the name of the game from now on with diplomatic pushes is to push hard on all the border non-affiliates that aren't hostile and push them to affiliate status asap.

 

[Briefvoice]

I wish we knew more about the Yrillians. The reason that the Cardassian influence has been so dangerous with the Dawiar and the Sydraxians is that both of them have highly martial cultures. If the Cardassians go after the Gretatians, well, that'll probably suck pretty hard for them but I'm not worried about them being used in a proxy war. But even though the Yrillians have appeared multiple times, I couldn't so much as tell you what they look like.

My suggestion is the name of the game from now on with diplomatic pushes is to push hard on all the non-border affiliates that aren't hostile and push them to affiliate status asap.

Click to shrink...

The trouble is how expensive that is. We only get one roll with non-affiliates, and it could easily be a crap roll. It's not very pp-efficient, and the same expenditure could push existing affiliates into 300+ contributing members or guys like the Rigellians into full membership, who then immediately add to our resources. I mean, imagine this was youer choice for expending 40 pp:

OPTION 1:
Yrillians +22
Seyek +15
Gretatians: +30
Qloath: +2

OR

OPTION 2:
Rigellians: +55
Caldonians: +80
Gaeni: +52
Indorians: +72

The payoff is so incredibly different.

 

[Nervos Belli]

I wish we knew more about the Yrillians. The reason that the Cardassian influence has been so dangerous with the Dawiar and the Sydraxians is that both of them have highly martial cultures. If the Cardassians go after the Gretatians, well, that'll probably suck pretty hard for them but I'm not worried about them being used in a proxy war. But even though the Yrillians have appeared multiple times, I couldn't so much as tell you what they look like.



The trouble is how expensive that is. We only get one roll with non-affiliates, and it could easily be a crap roll. It's not very pp-efficient, and the same expenditure could push existing affiliates into 300+ contributing members or guys like the Rigellians into full membership, who then immediately add to our resources. I mean, imagine this was youer choice for expending 40 pp:

OPTION 1:
Yrillians +22
Seyek +15
Gretatians: +30
Qloath: +2

OR

OPTION 2:
Rigellians: +55
Caldonians: +80
Gaeni: +52
Indorians: +72

The payoff is so incredibly different.

Click to shrink...

Yrillians are a canon race. They have an unfortunate reputation as pirates and raiders, and most of their appearances in this quest have been as such. They don't get a lot of detail in canon, but generally they aren't well regarded by the rest of the galaxy, and they never joined the Federation.

I doubt they'd join up with the Cardassians, but like the Orion Syndicate they're a good source of mercenaries to do the dirty work.

 

[SuperSonicSound]

I wish we knew more about the Yrillians. The reason that the Cardassian influence has been so dangerous with the Dawiar and the Sydraxians is that both of them have highly martial cultures. If the Cardassians go after the Gretatians, well, that'll probably suck pretty hard for them but I'm not worried about them being used in a proxy war. But even though the Yrillians have appeared multiple times, I couldn't so much as tell you what they look like.



The trouble is how expensive that is. We only get one roll with non-affiliates, and it could easily be a crap roll. It's not very pp-efficient, and the same expenditure could push existing affiliates into 300+ contributing members or guys like the Rigellians into full membership, who then immediately add to our resources. I mean, imagine this was youer choice for expending 40 pp:

OPTION 1:
Yrillians +22
Seyek +15
Gretatians: +30
Qloath: +2

OR

OPTION 2:
Rigellians: +55
Caldonians: +80
Gaeni: +52
Indorians: +72

The payoff is so incredibly different.

Click to shrink...

You're completely ignoring the fact that ignoring the non-affiliates means that the Cardassians have a very easy time of turning them against us. A single push on the Dawiar for instance with the previous scenario could well have meant we still have positive relations with them and would make things much easier for us.

besides which there are only three non-affiliates we can push now in the CBZ. Yrillians, Seyek and Gretarans. Your outline there is completely fine if you're willing to ignore the CBZ and the fact that by ignoring them we'd be giving them to the Cardies.

 

[Leila Hann]

I wish we knew more about the Yrillians. The reason that the Cardassian influence has been so dangerous with the Dawiar and the Sydraxians is that both of them have highly martial cultures. If the Cardassians go after the Gretatians, well, that'll probably suck pretty hard for them but I'm not worried about them being used in a proxy war. But even though the Yrillians have appeared multiple times, I couldn't so much as tell you what they look like.



The trouble is how expensive that is. We only get one roll with non-affiliates, and it could easily be a crap roll. It's not very pp-efficient, and the same expenditure could push existing affiliates into 300+ contributing members or guys like the Rigellians into full membership, who then immediately add to our resources. I mean, imagine this was youer choice for expending 40 pp:

OPTION 1:
Yrillians +22
Seyek +15
Gretatians: +30
Qloath: +2

OR

OPTION 2:
Rigellians: +55
Caldonians: +80
Gaeni: +52
Indorians: +72

The payoff is so incredibly different.

Click to shrink...

We're not in danger of losing the latter to the Cardassians.

 

[Briefvoice]

Yrillians are a canon race. They have an unfortunate reputation as pirates and raiders, and most of their appearances in this quest have been as such. They don't get a lot of detail in canon, but generally they aren't well regarded by the rest of the galaxy, and they never joined the Federation.

Click to shrink...

Does canon use a different spelling? I've tried looking them up on both Memory Alpha and Memory Beta, both usually pretty comprehensive, and the searches don't seem to turn up anything.

besides which there are only three non-affiliates we can push now in the CBZ. Yrillians, Seyek and Gretarans. Your outline there is completely fine if you're willing to ignore the CBZ and the fact that by ignoring them we'd be giving them to the Cardies.

Click to shrink...

You didn't count the Qloath, which is weird since I specifically listed them. Is there a reason we can't push them?

We're not in danger of losing the latter to the Cardassians.

Click to shrink...

I'd simply like to strike a balance. Ignoring those groups isn't a great idea, but neither is going all-in on them. I think 50% non-affiliates / 50% affiliates is a reasonable goal, meaning 2/2 pushes in pp flush years and 1/1 pushes in pp lean years. (This looks to be a flush year.)

 

[SuperSonicSound]

You didn't count the Qloath, which is weird since I specifically listed them. Is there a reason we can't push them?

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Blaargh, because I was looking at the front page which hasn't been updated and mind blanked them. :<

 

[pheonix89]

Gotta agree with SuperSonicSound. We want to get everyone on that facing into affiliate status stat as our counterplay. IF there was a species with no probable integration stoppers at the Orion's position I'd say to drop either the Yrillians or the Gretarians for them, because it's optimal to prioritize full membership for species within existing sectors because they add very small defense requirements and add NO mobile asset requrements - a starbase can cover the system defense requirement and the existing sector fleet covers events.

However, the Orions have a massive massive potential integration stopper in the form of the Syndicate. The Caldonians are within an existing sector, but it's the KBZ, which might cause problems, and we don't need that.

Incidentally, we really ought to go all out on finishing Xenopsych T2 and then going External Diplomacy, because it has a tech that gives passive rolls on non-affiliates.

 

[Random Member]

Does canon use a different spelling? I've tried looking them up on both Memory Alpha and Memory Beta, both usually pretty comprehensive, and the searches don't seem to turn up anything.

Click to shrink...

I'm guessing they're these guys.
Yridian

 

[Nix]

You didn't count the Qloath, which is weird since I specifically listed them. Is there a reason we can't push them?

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Chronologically they might have been discovered only after the meeting happens. On the other hand the stardates indicate that the captain's log events happened very early in the quarter (and did last quarter as well).

 

[Briefvoice]

Gotta agree with SuperSonicSound. We want to get everyone on that facing into affiliate status stat as our counterplay. IF there was a species with no probable integration stoppers at the Orion's position I'd say to drop either the Yrillians or the Gretarians for them, because it's optimal to prioritize full membership for species within existing sectors because they add very small defense requirements and add NO mobile asset requrements - a starbase can cover the system defense requirement and the existing sector fleet covers events.

However, the Orions have a massive massive potential integration stopper in the form of the Syndicate. The Caldonians are within an existing sector, but it's the KBZ, which might cause problems, and we don't need that.

Click to shrink...

The Caldonians seem like a fairly quiet bunch. Our most recent interaction with them was helping them explain the Klingons that their giant telescope was in fact a giant telescope. There's been no indication that the Klingons would take particular offense at us more closely integrating them.

There's also the opportunity to push the Rigellians to full membership. They come with their own Starbase already built, so defense requirements would be relatively light. Just have to scrape together 4D most likely. One year of pushes likely wouldn't do it, but two years might get them there just as we get that flood of Centaur-As.

 

[Nervos Belli]

Does canon use a different spelling? I've tried looking them up on both Memory Alpha and Memory Beta, both usually pretty comprehensive, and the searches don't seem to turn up anything.



You didn't count the Qloath, which is weird since I specifically listed them. Is there a reason we can't push them?



I'd simply like to strike a balance. Ignoring those groups isn't a great idea, but neither is going all-in on them. I think 50% non-affiliates / 50% affiliates is a reasonable goal, meaning 2/2 pushes in pp flush years and 1/1 pushes in pp lean years. (This looks to be a flush year.)

Click to shrink...

Apparently I was thinking of the Yridians. Although the Yrillians have been there since the beginning of the game and seem similar to the Yridians, so maybe they are the same and Oneiros just used a different spelling?

 

[Leila Hann]

The Caldonians seem like a fairly quiet bunch. Our most recent interaction with them was helping them explain the Klingons that their giant telescope was in fact a giant telescope. There's been no indication that the Klingons would take particular offense at us more closely integrating them.

There's also the opportunity to push the Rigellians to full membership. They come with their own Starbase already built, so defense requirements would be relatively light. Just have to scrape together 4D most likely. One year of pushes likely wouldn't do it, but two years might get them there just as we get that flood of Centaur-As.

Click to shrink...

I'd ask the Klingons about it first, just in case.

 

[pheonix89]

The Caldonians seem like a fairly quiet bunch. Our most recent interaction with them was helping them explain the Klingons that their giant telescope was in fact a giant telescope. There's been no indication that the Klingons would take particular offense at us more closely integrating them.

There's also the opportunity to push the Rigellians to full membership. They come with their own Starbase already built, so defense requirements would be relatively light. Just have to scrape together 4D most likely. One year of pushes likely wouldn't do it, but two years might get them there just as we get that flood of Centaur-As.

Click to shrink...

I'd be backing pushing the Caldonians if it wasn't for the opportunity cost. This is very much not an objection to doing pushes on the Caldonians, it's an objection to doing them while we still have potential affiliates that within range of Cardassian subversion.

I'd ask the Klingons about it first, just in case.

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Nah, they didn't object at affiliate status, and the Caldonians are firmly on our side of the border. Chance of increased tension is better than giving the Klingons much official influence on our policies here.

The Caldonians seem like a fairly quiet bunch. Our most recent interaction with them was helping them explain the Klingons that their giant telescope was in fact a giant telescope. There's been no indication that the Klingons would take particular offense at us more closely integrating them.

There's also the opportunity to push the Rigellians to full membership. They come with their own Starbase already built, so defense requirements would be relatively light. Just have to scrape together 4D most likely. One year of pushes likely wouldn't do it, but two years might get them there just as we get that flood of Centaur-As.

Click to shrink...

We're quite tight on mobile assets and we have affiliates that definitely don't add new sectors to get first - Caldonians and Orions. Yes, the Orions have a probable stalling issue. But the Orion Syndicate issue is one that we need to confront ANYWAY because having a de facto hostile minor power in our core is right out.

One thing we need to know is how border zones and full membership interact.

 

[OneirosTheWriter]

Starship Construction techs just went up.

 

[Briefvoice]

I'd be backing pushing the Caldonians if it wasn't for the opportunity cost. This is very much not an objection to doing pushes on the Caldonians, it's an objection to doing them while we still have potential affiliates that within range of Cardassian subversion.

Click to shrink...

Could we maybe agree to give the Cardassians the Yrillians? If they are indeed the same as the Yridians, I don't really want those jokers in the Federation.

One thing we need to know is how border zones and full membership interact.

Click to shrink...

I forget exactly where it was stated, possibly in some brief @OneirosTheWriter reply, but I vaguely remember that there is a distinction between the KBZ/CBZ and the RBZ. The Romulan Neutral Zone is a specific treaty-defined area of space and will never shift without renegotiation of the treaty. The Cardassian and Klingon border zones are much more fluid things where the whole point is to exclude foreign ships from member world territory. So if the Caldonians joined the Federation, or even became close enough affiliates to get their own key system, they would not be in the KBZ.

Possibly they might end in Andor sector rather than their own sector though.

 

[Briefvoice]

Starship Construction techs just went up.

Click to shrink...

So can someone more versed in Starship design tell me, what good are Modules? Why should we use them in designs, rather than just having a main hull and a secondary hull? Because I notice that there are a couple of improvements to module size in these techs, and the benefit isn't intuitive to me. What can you do with a Module that you can't do by setting the Module to 0 and eliminating it (to produce a better looking ship IMO) in favor of simply making the other hulls bigger?

The Constitution class didn't need no stinking module. The Excelsior didn't need no stinking module. What's the benefit?

 

[OneirosTheWriter]

Okay, I'm heading off to bed now, will see where we are at with the voting in the morning.

 

[Derek58]

So can someone more versed in Starship design tell me, what good are Modules? Why should we use them in designs, rather than just having a main hull and a secondary hull? Because I notice that there are a couple of improvements to module size in these techs, and the benefit isn't intuitive to me. What can you do with a Module that you can't do by setting the Module to 0 and eliminating it (to produce a better looking ship IMO) in favor of simply making the other hulls bigger?

The Constitution class didn't need no stinking module. The Excelsior didn't need no stinking module. What's the benefit?

Click to shrink...

I'm pretty sure the module refers to the saucer part of ships, so it's rather important.

 

[SuperSonicSound]

So can someone more versed in Starship design tell me, what good are Modules? Why should we use them in designs, rather than just having a main hull and a secondary hull? Because I notice that there are a couple of improvements to module size in these techs, and the benefit isn't intuitive to me. What can you do with a Module that you can't do by setting the Module to 0 and eliminating it (to produce a better looking ship IMO) in favor of simply making the other hulls bigger?

The Constitution class didn't need no stinking module. The Excelsior didn't need no stinking module. What's the benefit?

Click to shrink...

Modules don't effect hull reliability, so you can fudge 5 them for no reliability penalty escorts get a weight reduction for combat when using modules after a certain tech is researched iirc as well.

I'm pretty sure the module refers to the saucer part of ships, so it's rather important.

Click to shrink...

Nope, modules refer to things like the Mirandas roll bar or the Nebulas mission pods.

 

[Derek58]

Those faster build time techs are pretty nice

 

[Nix]

So can someone more versed in Starship design tell me, what good are Modules? Why should we use them in designs, rather than just having a main hull and a secondary hull? Because I notice that there are a couple of improvements to module size in these techs, and the benefit isn't intuitive to me. What can you do with a Module that you can't do by setting the Module to 0 and eliminating it (to produce a better looking ship IMO) in favor of simply making the other hulls bigger?

The Constitution class didn't need no stinking module. The Excelsior didn't need no stinking module. What's the benefit?

Click to shrink...

Modules are more reliable/efficient (can use high size design factors without impact on system reliability), reduce science weight in escorts (for free), reduce power requirements in escorts at the cost of some weight (torpedo focus), and reduce combat weight in explorers at the cost of some extra power requirements (phaser focus).

 

[Simon_Jester]

Could we maybe agree to give the Cardassians the Yrillians? If they are indeed the same as the Yridians, I don't really want those jokers in the Federation.

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Clearly the Yridians have a diaspora population that includes a lot of shady characters- but for all we know that's just because in the TNG era they've been reduced to the status of space gypsies. The real Roma (that is, gypsies) had a terrible reputation for theft and treachery, much of it undeserved. And in large part the reason for their bad reputation was that they were forced into a nomadic way of life. If these guys still have their homeworld, they may be little like the scavenging wanderer population we see in the 2360s and later.

I forget exactly where it was stated, possibly in some brief @OneirosTheWriter reply, but I vaguely remember that there is a distinction between the KBZ/CBZ and the RBZ. The Romulan Neutral Zone is a specific treaty-defined area of space and will never shift without renegotiation of the treaty. The Cardassian and Klingon border zones are much more fluid things where the whole point is to exclude foreign ships from member world territory. So if the Caldonians joined the Federation, or even became close enough affiliates to get their own key system, they would not be in the KBZ.

Possibly they might end in Andor sector rather than their own sector though.

Click to shrink...

It seems fairly likely that if a minor race sandwiched between two of our sectors integrates, it should integrate into one of the sectors. It might raise our defense requirements in that sector, but it should administratively be part of that sector.

 

[AlphaDelta]

So can someone more versed in Starship design tell me, what good are Modules? Why should we use them in designs, rather than just having a main hull and a secondary hull? Because I notice that there are a couple of improvements to module size in these techs, and the benefit isn't intuitive to me. What can you do with a Module that you can't do by setting the Module to 0 and eliminating it (to produce a better looking ship IMO) in favor of simply making the other hulls bigger?

The Constitution class didn't need no stinking module. The Excelsior didn't need no stinking module. What's the benefit?

Click to shrink...

Modules don't effect hull reliability, so you can fudge 5 them for no reliability penalty escorts get a weight reduction for combat when using modules after a certain tech is researched iirc as well.



Nope, modules refer to things like the Mirandas roll bar or the Nebulas mission pods.

Click to shrink...

Modules are great, because they don't contribute to hull reliability. I believe that they also discount science and combat slightly.

 

[pheonix89]

@OneirosTheWriter
Still don't have last turn's research gains added to Starship Construction.

[T1] ToC Starship Frames should have:

8 / 20 Tritanium-90 Alloy Pattern (Hull Armour Material Science I) (-2% to Hull Weight)
8 / 20 SDB-4 SIF System (Hull Integrity Grids I) (-1% to Hull Power Cost)
13 / 20 Twin-Fixed Pylon Meld (Frame Weight Improvements I) (-2% to Frame Weight)