To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)
- Thread starter OneirosTheWriter
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[ ] We should not intervene in the Chrystovian invasion.
Basically, what everyone else has said. This should be a learning opportunity for us. We need to follow up on things that could lead to situations like this. If we'd intervened years ago to start affiliating the Chrystovians, my vote would probably be different, but as it stands, we've not done anything. I expect that the Chrystovians would be bitter that we did nothing to help for years, even with intervention.
EDIT: ... Damn it, I am uncertain now. No spoilers, but I am retracting my vote because I'm very uncertain.
Basically, what everyone else has said. This should be a learning opportunity for us. We need to follow up on things that could lead to situations like this. If we'd intervened years ago to start affiliating the Chrystovians, my vote would probably be different, but as it stands, we've not done anything. I expect that the Chrystovians would be bitter that we did nothing to help for years, even with intervention.
EDIT: ... Damn it, I am uncertain now. No spoilers, but I am retracting my vote because I'm very uncertain.
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- Location
- Aotearoa
No doubt they have plentiful video evidence and testimony from tearful survivors available.
GMs: if we do respond with HoH assistance, is it possible to negotiate a cease to our diplomatic contest on our border for the duration of the action? Other than existing agreements and the war wrapup, that is. Perhaps impose a limit to the contest of some sort? If the HoH are as committed to intervention as they seem to be, I would hope they could be reasoned with here.
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Tfw you are neville chamberlain and you have to abandon a free people to the depredations of fascists because you're not ready to fight a general war
I do think we need to be more proactive with the Cardassians from now on. An Allupii task force, reinforce Royal, secure the Ittick-ka to cut off rimwards expansion, start punishing the Lecarre for constantly murdering our people. An aggressive strategy of containment, because I now consider some kind of general war with the Cardassians inevitable, and I'm sure they will give us even more reasons in the future.
I do think we need to be more proactive with the Cardassians from now on. An Allupii task force, reinforce Royal, secure the Ittick-ka to cut off rimwards expansion, start punishing the Lecarre for constantly murdering our people. An aggressive strategy of containment, because I now consider some kind of general war with the Cardassians inevitable, and I'm sure they will give us even more reasons in the future.
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- Location
- United States
no. as much as i would like to help, they are just too fucking far away, and general war is unacceptable.
not only that, but we will probably lose the diplo-war with HoH if we draw enough ships to make a difference. expecting some kind of "cease fire" there is folly.
[X] We should not intervene in the Chrystovian invasion.
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- Mid-Atlantic
I want to participate in this discussion, but don't have time right now.
I think it would be genuinely interesting as a change of pace to see what interventionism gets, and I don't feel the status quo (ongoing grim 'peace' with Cardassia while tolerating their abuses for the next 40-50 years) is really satisfactory. We have a reasonable hope of dealing with the Cardassians without having to face an imminent massive threat on the far side of Federation space forcing us to fight on two flanks at once, too. Which is a luxury we may not have next time.
[X] We should intervene in the Chrystovian invasion.
I think it would be genuinely interesting as a change of pace to see what interventionism gets, and I don't feel the status quo (ongoing grim 'peace' with Cardassia while tolerating their abuses for the next 40-50 years) is really satisfactory. We have a reasonable hope of dealing with the Cardassians without having to face an imminent massive threat on the far side of Federation space forcing us to fight on two flanks at once, too. Which is a luxury we may not have next time.
[X] We should intervene in the Chrystovian invasion.
At that point we're basically building the thing with auxiliary hospital ship capability, more than the ship could possibly use for its own needs, but very helpful at outreach if someone else has a problem.
Is is weird that I'm on the Spoonheads' side here? We know rogue Chrystovian scientists have been doing this and as far as I'm concerned this is a valid Casus Belli.
In other words, Remove
[X] We should not intervene in the Chrystovian invasion.
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- Location
- Aotearoa
Indeed. I wondered about that aspect, too. I worked out the Renaissance Hospital Ship, if based on the same frigate frame we're using for the Rennie-A, could have about fifteen large (lower-tech) sickbays, alongside a couple of small science labs for sample testing. So perhaps a third of a hospital ship capacity, but more up-to-date, and you'd think absolutely able to help out significantly with say a colony world outbreak.
(Incidentally, despite having no weapons, the statline was about C1S5H4L5P4D5, though a better balance between sickbays and labs would increase S to 6 or 7 on a conventional design. An Ambassador has four T1 '04 large sickbays, the Amby-A perhaps six T4 bays.)
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Himmelhand
Giant Sinkhole 2020
- Location
- Midwestern US
[X] We should not intervene in the Chrystovian invasion.
The price is too high, especially with any strategy we would realistically take. This would not be a second Gabriel. It would be slit throats in the Badlands along the entire border and a far higher cost in blood than we're ready to pay.
If we want to realpolitik it, we can take the lessons from the recent wars and play them on repeat in front of the Gorn and Ittick-ka until they see that they will not get away with bloodthirsty ambitions easily. Then we pin Chrystovia right next to Bajor on our list of Cardassian messes to clean up.
Is there any way we can claim our intervenionist members' fervor and direct it towards forestalling any other acts of aggression? Get them to double down on the Ur'razzi, put something towards the Ittick-ka, or maybe the Allupii?
The price is too high, especially with any strategy we would realistically take. This would not be a second Gabriel. It would be slit throats in the Badlands along the entire border and a far higher cost in blood than we're ready to pay.
If we want to realpolitik it, we can take the lessons from the recent wars and play them on repeat in front of the Gorn and Ittick-ka until they see that they will not get away with bloodthirsty ambitions easily. Then we pin Chrystovia right next to Bajor on our list of Cardassian messes to clean up.
Is there any way we can claim our intervenionist members' fervor and direct it towards forestalling any other acts of aggression? Get them to double down on the Ur'razzi, put something towards the Ittick-ka, or maybe the Allupii?
[X] We should intervene in the Chrystovian invasion.
Let's do this. The time for total war was honestly back when we were winning Gabriel, not now, but letting this pass would be very bad. There's no telling when the Cardassians will next give us such a reason for war, and how many people will die in the mean time.
If we wait for our next optimal time to fight, well they'll just refuse to give us such an opening until it passes once again. We're never going to fight them at the time of our choosing because they understand basic diplomacy and we're pathologically incapable of declaring offensive wars. So we should fight them now rather than let them continue creeping up on us and getting bigger.
Let's do this. The time for total war was honestly back when we were winning Gabriel, not now, but letting this pass would be very bad. There's no telling when the Cardassians will next give us such a reason for war, and how many people will die in the mean time.
If we wait for our next optimal time to fight, well they'll just refuse to give us such an opening until it passes once again. We're never going to fight them at the time of our choosing because they understand basic diplomacy and we're pathologically incapable of declaring offensive wars. So we should fight them now rather than let them continue creeping up on us and getting bigger.
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Thank you for making me feel really shitty about my decision to cut the Chrystovians lose...
It's a wrong analogy anyways. Britain could choose to delay and fight later because at a time of it's choosing it could have decided to attack even if it hadn't been further provoked like it eventually was. We can only decide to attack the Cardassians when they do something we must respond to, due to the fact that unlike Britain our policy on offensive wars is "never".
So postponing this war to fight when we can win is a far wore idea for us than it was for Britain, because when we can win, we won't be able to fight.
EDIT: Before someone brings up the Arcadian War, I count that as a defensive war since the novas would have hit our systems. And the Cardassians aren't going to be fucking around with star exploding weapons where we can see them.
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Well fuck. I guess Briefvoice actually had a point on the Cardassians having a pretext.
I still say intervention is the right choice here, morally. Practically, it's tougher, but if we can manage the politics to get the ISC and HoH on side at the same time, there's no way the Cardassians don't blink first. A 3V1 major power general war is a good way to get your shit wrecked, and I can't think of any three that would be tougher to face.
[X] We should intervene in the Chrystovian invasion.
Also, "Oh, by the way, the Breen war ended"? That's a little anticlimactic.
I still say intervention is the right choice here, morally. Practically, it's tougher, but if we can manage the politics to get the ISC and HoH on side at the same time, there's no way the Cardassians don't blink first. A 3V1 major power general war is a good way to get your shit wrecked, and I can't think of any three that would be tougher to face.
[X] We should intervene in the Chrystovian invasion.
Also, "Oh, by the way, the Breen war ended"? That's a little anticlimactic.
The thing is, if we don't intervene we might be able to use the opportunity to save multiple others. While the Cardassians are... busy... we could get an Allupii Task Force going this year that they'll be powerless to intervene against. We can build the supply lines and waystations to the Allupii now and prevent the Cardassians from being able to pull this off again.
We can double down on the Gorn, get an ittick-ka TF going to stop that war. We can make a difference on multiple other fronts.
If we don't start a general war for the Chrystovians.
We can double down on the Gorn, get an ittick-ka TF going to stop that war. We can make a difference on multiple other fronts.
If we don't start a general war for the Chrystovians.
[X] We should not intervene in the Chrystovian invasion.
It would have been neat to have a Federation, ISC, and Harmony team-up but the opportunity cost is too high right now. Harmony is probably going to capitalize on a non-intervention stance by calling us out on it though.
You know, this would be a good time for the S'harien to make a heroic reentry since we never actually found the pieces after it was lost if I remember right.
It would have been neat to have a Federation, ISC, and Harmony team-up but the opportunity cost is too high right now. Harmony is probably going to capitalize on a non-intervention stance by calling us out on it though.
You know, this would be a good time for the S'harien to make a heroic reentry since we never actually found the pieces after it was lost if I remember right.
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- They/Them
I'm also on the side of the grim numbers game, but are you gonna walk the walk here? Because iirc in your proposed deployment plan there is no Allupii TF and Royal gets understaffed. Honestly I'd be willing to draw down on Beyond to get those task forces working overtime...
I don't think it's quite fair to criticize the proposed deployments about the lack of anti-cardassian TFs since they were made before the Cardassian war post was made. No one had any reason to think they were going to invade this year.
[X] We should not intervene in the Chrystovian invasion.
I don't like it, but I'm not confidant that we have enough magic in the dice to pull a win off for this. Should probably invest in our everything else.
I don't like it, but I'm not confidant that we have enough magic in the dice to pull a win off for this. Should probably invest in our everything else.
I don't think Royal was understaffed... 11/12 ships is actually a lot considering they're already making good progress with 8 ships, and we'll add some attachments for added punch.
As for the Allupii TF, that just jumped up in priority. The good news is now we don't need a TF Breen, so that's six ships freed up right there. I'm going to start moving ships around and see what I can make happen.
Wildcard option here, but...
What if we intervened on the side of the Ashalla pact? Its not like they could turn around and say, "um, actually we can handle this" considering they've accused the Chrystovians of things the Federation takes a dim view on, while putting us in a position to subvert Cardassia subsuming the Chrystovians. We get our fleet in place, resolve the issues that caused the declaration of war and then give the Ashalla pact a nice big smile and a "That was a good job. Now that the situation has been resolved. Best we all go home now, don't you think?"
What if we intervened on the side of the Ashalla pact? Its not like they could turn around and say, "um, actually we can handle this" considering they've accused the Chrystovians of things the Federation takes a dim view on, while putting us in a position to subvert Cardassia subsuming the Chrystovians. We get our fleet in place, resolve the issues that caused the declaration of war and then give the Ashalla pact a nice big smile and a "That was a good job. Now that the situation has been resolved. Best we all go home now, don't you think?"
I'm digging this plan. Chrystovian Rogue-Social-Scientists are similar to Mentats so the Federation has a valid Casus Belli.
We should also look for a Task Force commander that has a knighthood, or other other feudal honor they can lean on. I don't think's Sam's membership in th eOrder of the Red Paperclip would win much favour as a none random example.