Kepler was supposed to be our dual-purpose Science-boat and Diplo-boat, then the Harmony showed up with the P13 Sanctuary.

Why would you even try to compare a 1MT frigate to a 5MT monstrosity that is basically its own task force? Why would you argue that a specialized task force ship which is really more a replacement or complement to Nehilar Enforcers is evidence of the obsolescence of a general-duty garrison garrison ship? What the hell are you even trying to say?

None of these comparisons make any sense.
 
also i thought the kepler ships where primary for science things but could also help out on the diplomatic front.

as far as i remember they were never intended to replace the bigger ships on the counter the stupid high scores of the 4k/5k ships?

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wasn`t the plan to overflow them with ships that could not counter V us countering them with ships that are lesser then them one on one?
 
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Kepler is not obsolete. The entire role of a diplomatic specialist was invented from whole cloth during the Kepler's development. That the Kepler was a capable diplomatic ship at all was because it was designed to fill in all rear-echelon response. When we filled out the new tacops, the presence part of the Kepler's profile was described as a courier ship.

That we now need a diplomatic specialist like we used to need a science specialist is simply how the needs of the Federation have changed. It has little to do with obsolescence.
 
I could have phrased that better.

The main point I'm trying to make is that the Kepler was supposed to be a specialized Science/Diplomacy boat with no plans, at the time, for any sort of specialized diplomatic ship.

Then our conflict with the Harmony began and the P5 Kepler didn't cut it anymore.

It's still wrong. The Kepler was our specialized garrison boat, to handle everything that did not involve the risk of pew. (Which our various diplomancy things notably have a few times, like Nehilar's Honor fighting a suvekizer or the Gorn-sponsered and Ittick-ka-sponsered shooting contests.) We've considered specialized diploboats since the start of the Task Force system in earnest, as the majority of our task forces have to do diplothings, and the fact we started with the Horizon at the same time is really a coincidence. We would still be considering specialized diplomacy ships without them.
 
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I could have phrased that better.

The main point I'm trying to make is that the Kepler was supposed to be a specialized Science/Diplomacy boat with no plans, at the time, for any sort of specialized diplomatic ship.
Think back.

When we voted on statlines for the Kepler, did you think this would be the only diplomatic vessel we'd ever need aside from explorers?

If not, then you weren't planning on the Kepler filling a role it proved inadequate to fill, undermining the "Kepler is obsolete" claim.

I mean, the Kepler isn't a combat frigate either; that isn't a cause to call it obsolete.
 
wasn`t the plan to overflow them with ships that could not counter V us countering them with ships that are lesser then them one on one?

We can design a 1.6Mt Diplomatic flagship Cruiser with P12, that almost matches the extra-plush Sanctuary, but the first wave wouldn't launch until around the same time we're refitting the non-EC Ambassador-As, which will probably also have P12.
As for the relative importance of matching stat to stat for single-ship opposed rolls, as compared to total amount of P amongst the involved group of ships, that's not entirely clear to me. My working assumption is that both matter, across the task force events- the next Beya-War match against the Intendant might involve an Excelsior-A trying to beat the team from a P13 Sanctuary straight up, which would be a challenging task.
 
We can design a 1.6Mt Diplomatic flagship Cruiser with P12, that almost matches the extra-plush Sanctuary, but the first wave wouldn't launch until around the same time we're refitting the non-EC Ambassador-As, which will probably also have P12.
As for the relative importance of matching stat to stat for single-ship opposed rolls, as compared to total amount of P amongst the involved group of ships, that's not entirely clear to me. My working assumption is that both matter, across the task force events- the next Beya-War match against the Intendant might involve an Excelsior-A trying to beat the team from a P13 Sanctuary straight up, which would be a challenging task.
Right, but by the same token, if we can spam P5 ships and fit a dozen of them into our task force at the price the enemy has to pay to put out eight P5 cruisers, we may be able to win by being in four places they weren't.

[I'm not saying you disagree with this, but it's the other side of the coin you describe]

We can design a 1.6Mt Diplomatic flagship Cruiser with P12, that almost matches the extra-plush Sanctuary, but the first wave wouldn't launch until around the same time we're refitting the non-EC Ambassador-As, which will probably also have P12.
Interesting. What's the rest of the statline on that ship; we might want to consider it as our next-gen heavy cruiser if we're not sacrificing too much else.
 
Interesting. What's the rest of the statline on that ship; we might want to consider it as our next-gen heavy cruiser if we're not sacrificing too much else.
Project Solkar Diplomatic Flagship

A joint study between the Lor'Vela Orbital Drafting Bureau, the University of Betazed and the Vulcan Science Academy, with consultancy from Spock, the Solkar Project is a Vulcan-Betazoid proposal for a Star Fleet Diplomatic flagship to represent their peaceful interests within the Federalised fleet.

The all-new design takes the latest thinking on xenopsychology and fits them into a ship with diplomatic facilities to match the proposed Ambassador-A refits, at half the weight and without carrying the martial threat of an Explorer into orbit. It nevertheless offers sufficient capability to discourage bad actors, and has stronger shields and structural resilience to protect diplomatic delegations than proposed diplomatic frigate designs.

Project Solkar offers a combination of speed and endurance to conduct far-ranging and high-urgency diplomatic missions for the Federation, the command and control capability to act as a Flagship for task forces and fleets, and still matches the response capability of the new Comet design even outside its diplomatic speciality. Efficient design allows this to be achieved with fewer than 500 crew.

Rumour has it Councillor Stesk was a driving force behind the project.

User:Alliterate/2323 Solkar Project P-Cruiser - To Boldly Go

C4S4H4L6P12D7-8, so it attempts to remain a roughly Comet-level responder outside it's Diplomacy speciality, and to be more resistant to Lecarre bombs than H2 Preplers. Could be set underway this Snakepit.
By no means a generalist heavy cruiser design, though.

It could (in theory, if we're allowed) be varianted or even refit in the future into a slightly-inferior generalist Sector garrison cruiser than a generalist heavy cruiser designed from scratch in 2325 or 2327. As attached as I am to Project Solkar, it's highly debatable whether this is a better plan than to:-

-Fill in with a 'Renvoy' Renaissance-A variant (P8-10) or 'Prepler' P9-10 Kepler-variant (or even a P7-8 Centaur-BP)- theoretically if allowed- available much sooner.
-Design a garrison HC in 2325 or 2327-8.
-Get a P12 ship or two per diplo-TF from the five or six non-EC Ambassador-As we'll probably have by the mid-30s.

A small number of really-high-stat ships are likely a good thing- but maybe as Explorers our big expensive Amby-A will cover that well enough, and we can put out economical lower-cost lower-P alternatives to fill out the rest of the Task Forces.
 
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User:Alliterate/2323 Solkar Project P-Cruiser - To Boldly Go

C4S4H4L6P12D7-8, so it attempts to remain a roughly Comet-level responder outside it's Diplomacy speciality, and to be more resistant to Lecarre bombs than H2 Preplers. Could be set underway this Snakepit.

By no means a generalist heavy cruiser design, though.

Not thrilled about the price tag but it's likely to be cheaper than our actual heavy cruiser and has 1 less crew than the Rennie.


The P-Rennie makes me question if we would even want the Prepler. I'd rather have the former than the later.
 
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Not thrilled about the price tag but it's likely to be cheaper than our actual heavy cruiser and has 1 less crew than the Rennie.



The P-Rennie makes me question if we would even want the Prepler. I'd rather have the former than the later.
Re. Solkar, for me it's mainly the long lead time vs two-three years for a refit-variant. (If we can do one.)

I also think the debate over what form our new Diplo-Ship takes will be lively.
 
Starfleet Ship Crews - To Boldly Go <-- something people might find interesting - big thanks to @Shadows for doing a lot of the leg work. Gives an idea of the sort of positions characters might be thrown at when we say they are an Ops officer, or a Tactical officer, or the like.
May I suggest that the term 'Spacer' be accepted as an official (and semi-coincidentally gender-neutral) term available that is used interchangeably with "Crewman" and, presumably, "Crewwoman?"

I've always favored it, though not because it's gender-neutral but for other reasons of aesthetics.
 
May I suggest that the term 'Spacer' be accepted as an official (and semi-coincidentally gender-neutral) term available that is used interchangeably with "Crewman" and, presumably, "Crewwoman?"

I've always favored it, though not because it's gender-neutral but for other reasons of aesthetics.
Certainly can be.

It's worth pointing out that this is by no means finalised. This is our baseline, but we're working on helping emphasise the Starfleet feel/canon compliance, without losing plausibility.
 
A spacer is someone who works or lives in space though.

Crewman is part of a ships crew.

Rather different meanings.
 
May I suggest that the term 'Spacer' be accepted as an official (and semi-coincidentally gender-neutral) term available that is used interchangeably with "Crewman" and, presumably, "Crewwoman?"

I've always favored it, though not because it's gender-neutral but for other reasons of aesthetics.

Plus it is shorter and being gender neutral means you don't have to be on the lookout for other's species genitalia, which might be different than your own (or more varied) so, I'd assume a multi species polity would favor gender neutral terms as much as possible in their service branches

A spacer is someone who works or lives in space though.

Crewman is part of a ships crew.

Rather different meanings.

and spacer applies to all people serving on space stations and starships, we might need a civilian spacer tag for people living in orbital colonies, but... don't recall much of those in Star Trek, specially with transporters and the like
 
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With so many viable designs for a diplomacy-focused ship, maybe we shouldn't pick just one. We can prototype multiple different refit designs, while still starting a new ship project for a longer-term improvement. Even just going for two ships might be useful, with one more immediate refit and one long-term new ship. We can get the best of both worlds (or more) by constructing both worlds at the same time. (Just like baking two cakes, only we don't eat our starships, so...)
A spacer is someone who works or lives in space though.

Crewman is part of a ships crew.

Rather different meanings.

"Crewperson" only sounds awkward because it has too many syllables. English could really use a one-syllable gender-neutral alternative to man/men, but I'm no linguist.
 
Plus it is shorter and being gender neutral means you don't have to be on the lookout for other's species genitalia, which might be different than your own (or more varied) so, I'd assume a multi species polity would favor gender neutral terms as much as possible in their service branches
Like Andorians, and, I think, Apiata.

"Crewperson" only sounds awkward because it has too many syllables. English could really use a one-syllable gender-neutral alternative to man/men, but I'm no linguist.
"It" sounds a little un-nice.
 
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