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To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)

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To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest) Starfleet Ship Design Bureau, Refit ("To Boldly Go...")
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Forgothrax said:
On the other hand, letting the fash conquer, rape, and pillage because they might get mad at us if we don't roll over and let them says something about us, doesn't it?
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Problem is the cost. Could we persuade the Ittick-ka to abandon slavery for the same investment? Less? How does that compare, ethically?

There is plenty of assholes and tragedies in our vicinity. The question we need to ask is not if we should correct them, but in what order.

Briefvoice said:
You know literally nothing about the causes or justifications for any potential conflict between the Cardassians and the Chrystovians.
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Considering what we know of Cardassians, and the various precedents such as Bajor for example?

Conquest.

I would be pleasantly surprised otherwise, but find that very unlikely.

Anime_Fan35 said:
Who said anything about the HIP. I am referring to getting a second UP style shipyard set up not a second HIP. The second one can come later on after the 2 UP is set up and has several Berths working. I am not fool enough to want both at the same time since that would be counterproductive to our needs and a waste of valuable PP.
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Rereading your posts, I see no mention of that in them.

UP3 is long ways off. We do not even need UP2 berths right now actually, UP still has plenty of room to expland.

We just really dont want so much of our industry in a single system. UP2 will last us a long while.

Edit: Misunderstood you, somehow.
 
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Briefvoice said:
You also know literally nothing about Cardassian war objectives or intentions.

They fought the Konen for years and then acceded to an admittedly lopsided treaty that does not seem to have left the Konen stripmined, enslaved, or genocided. They seem to have come to peaceful relations with the Dylaarians without any war at all. All this stripmining and enslaving talk is hypothetical worst case. It's just as possible they'll blow up some Chrystovian ships, force them to sign over some mines, and sign a treaty where they stop talking to enemies of Cardassia and that's it.
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Eh, we know that if they can they prefer conquest or coup. The Bajorans are indicative of that, as are the Kohbeerians (sp?) that we found in the log that involved us contacting the Chrystovian in the first place. Both show that having insufficient military means you get conquered. In light of this...

OneirosTheWriter said:
Relations with the Chrystovians have gotten increasingly icy. What trade there was has plummeted; the Cardassian desk believes that the few remaining traders are mostly Obsidian Order agents, building networks for the inevitable invasion. The Chrystovians have gone into limited mobilization, but we do not believe they have the strength to effectively resist an invasion for long.
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Neither of your examples apply. They aren't going to settle a treaty when they can conquer and they don't have the good relationship the Dylaarians have (nor do they seem to be attempting to foster one). The situation seems much closer to Bajor and we all know how the Bajorans faired.

So why are you apologizing for Space Nazis, BV?
 
Forgothrax said:
Eh, we know that if they can they prefer conquest or coup. The Bajorans are indicative of that, as are the Kohbeerians (sp?) that we found in the log that involved us contacting the Chrystovian in the first place. Both show that having insufficient military means you get conquered. In light of this...



Neither of your examples apply. They aren't going to settle a treaty when they can conquer and they don't have the good relationship the Dylaarians have (nor do they seem to be attempting to foster one). The situation seems much closer to Bajor and we all know how the Bajorans faired.
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Note: this does suggest that if we can beef up the Chrystovians enough or just make the invasion costly enough the Cardassians will settle for forcing a change of government or membership in the Ashalla Pact. But this is really something we'd have had to have started several years ago to have any real chance of saving Chrystovia. Maybe if we deploy a few Explorers with instructions to use the weird science conditions in the nebula to fuck with the invaders as much as possible?

Maybe if S'harien hadn't been lost we'd have something.
 
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Glassware said:
Maybe if we deploy a few Explorers with instructions to use the weird science conditions in the nebula to fuck with the invaders as much as possible?
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Hm. Get in contact with House Ixar? They certainly knew how to construct mad science defenses. Stuff like Iron Dome could be incredibly useful to the Chrystovians. We might not even need their help, we can do good science on our own. I definitely like the idea of actively using the nebula, instead of just its passive effects.
 
Raw90 said:
Hm. Get in contact with House Ixar? They certainly knew how to construct mad science defenses. Stuff like Iron Dome could be incredibly useful to the Chrystovians. We might not even need their help, we can do good science on our own. I definitely like the idea of actively using the nebula, instead of just its passive effects.
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If we'd gotten past the Distant Stars tag and worked on the Cardassian Neighbors tag, I think preparations to do something like this would be what that entailed. Between us and the Chrystovians we could have potentially turned their space into a fortress-though that might just have convinced the Cardassians to take them even more seriously.
 
Gnarker said:
Thinking on it, the best thing to do might actually be to work on the Ashidi and Trill in order to get in a position where we actually can help the Chrystovians.
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The Trill are about as far from the Chrystovians as the Indorians. They'd help us cut off the Lecarre (which only does so much good since they're sneaky), but they don't do much for our ability to help the Chrystovians. The real problem with helping the Chrystovians is that the Imelak are between us and them, and that any significant force going to help the Chrystovians would be cut off from the bulk of the Federation and unable to retreat to Federation space readily if things go wrong.

The Ashidi sort of help because they're pushed right up against the Imelak, but ultimately that mainly just means that in the event of war we can put pressure in the Imelak and reduce the degree to which they harass the Chrystovians. It doesn't stop the Cardies from rolling up with a battlegroup.

I strongly suspect the Federation Council will object to us deliberately arming the Chrystovians, though a Hawk-dominated coalition might support it if we had one, which we're not likely to.

Himmelhand said:
Even if we only put 3 ships on the Ur'razzi it's worth it to get our foot in the door first.
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This is true; because of how the task force mechanic works, unopposed task forces make more progress. Getting there ahead of a competitor is good.
 
Forgothrax said:
That being said, it leaves a really bad taste in my mouth to not try to defend them when we know that they're inevitably going to be conquered and enslaved by a bunch of fascists who will stripmine their planets, enslave and rape their people, and use it to fuel a war machine that will then expand to the next possible target.
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What is your plan?

'Cuz if we're going to help the Chrystovians I don't wanna half-ass this. So at minimum we need to have enough strength to hold the line against the HoH, have an idea of how we might discourage the Cardassians from pushing and have some idea of how we'd handle it if the Cardassians escalate to Ashalla Pact-Federation war.

So far as I can tell, the best option is to build logistical infrastructure towards the Chrystovians while forming an alliance with other powers surrounding the Cardassians and have some sort of task force in one of the borderzone threatening the Cardassians if they make a move towards the Chrystovians. And... If I were the Cardassians I would find that to be an extremely aggressive act. Imagine if the HoH did something similar with the Gorn while courting the Cardassians?

Forgothrax said:
The problem is that we can't just make the Gorn neutral unless we have a way to make the Cardassians go away. Unless they do, it's either we sway the Gorn or the Cardassians do it. So we have to focus on affiliating them at some point.
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Why? Maybe it would be better to let them become a friendly great power.

I don't see why our choice has to be "Gorn are Cardassian or Federation".

Briefvoice said:
See, you view affiliating the Gorn as a "win". It would actually make me a little sad. They're more fun as they are.
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I dunno. I think the Gorn would make totally awesome members.

I do wish people would stop looking at everything like a ravenous carebear though... Uncontrolled expansionism in all directions is a good way to lose the fights that really matter.

I'd like if our interactions with other polities aimed to maximize the peace and love quotient in the local galaxy, rather than aiming to affiliate everyone and everything as if affiliation were a good in and of itself.

fasquardon
 
Simon_Jester said:
I strongly suspect the Federation Council will object to us deliberately arming the Chrystovians, though a Hawk-dominated coalition might support it if we had one, which we're not likely to.
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We've already had an Expansionist, a Development and now a Pacifist government. Logically, it's time for a Hawk-led one. The Mercantilist can have the one after that then.
 
fasquardon said:
I dunno. I think the Gorn would make totally awesome members.

I do wish people would stop looking at everything like a ravenous carebear though... Uncontrolled expansionism in all directions is a good way to lose the fights that really matter.

I'd like if our interactions with other polities aimed to maximize the peace and love quotient in the local galaxy, rather than aiming to affiliate everyone and everything as if affiliation were a good in and of itself.

fasquardon
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Part of the problem is that obstacles to peace and love tend to express themselves as tags that obstruct Federation membership, because, well, they would obstruct Federation membership.

When we fix the issue, the tags go away, at which point Federation membership just sort of... happens.

Our diplomacy engine was originally conceived as 'this is how to integrate minor species into the Federation,' and despite patching, that is its primary function.
 
It is interesting how Chrystovians situation became a self-fulfilling prophecy in large measure. We never spent much effort to get close to them in fear of provoking Cardassian attack, and now we are truly out of time to do anything without provoking it. IC and in-thread, efforts to save them from conquest should've begun at least two years ago, and doing much now would be a very schizophrenic foreign policy, IMO.

Still, I really would like a word from the Council about them. Do they want us to specifically do or not do something? Sending our ships there would risk general war.
 
And from the Federation point of view, why would they stop someone joining that's compatible?
 
agumentic said:
It is interesting how Chrystovians situation became a self-fulfilling prophecy in large measure. We never spent much effort to get close to them in fear of provoking Cardassian attack, and now we are truly out of time to do anything without provoking it. IC and in-thread, efforts to save them from conquest should've begun at least two years ago, and doing much now would be a very schizophrenic foreign policy, IMO.

Still, I really would like a word from the Council about them. Do they want us to specifically do or not do something? Sending our ships there would risk general war.
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And what should we have done - preferably something that the Cardassians don't see as trying to envelop them?
 
agumentic said:
It is interesting how Chrystovians situation became a self-fulfilling prophecy in large measure.
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That implies that the prophecy wouldn't have come true if we hadn't believed it.

Do you have reason to believe that if we HAD pushed hard to protect the Chrystovians, it wouldn't have become an issue with the Cardassians resulting in higher tension and a risk of war?

It's like, it's not a self-fulfilling prophecy to say "if you jump off that cliff you're going to get hurt, don't jump off that cliff" and then watch people not jump off the cliff. Nor is it a self-fulfilling prophecy if you say that and someone does jump off the cliff. The prophecy's not being fulfilled by itself, it's being fulfilled by gravity.

Likewise, here, the prophecy "if we try to reinforce the Chrystovians against the Cardassians, the Cardassians will react angrily" isn't a prophecy being fulfilled by itself. It's being fulfilled by the Cardassian Navy.
 
Simon_Jester said:
That implies that the prophecy wouldn't have come true if we hadn't believed it.

Do you have reason to believe that if we HAD pushed hard to protect the Chrystovians, it wouldn't have become an issue with the Cardassians resulting in higher tension and a risk of war?

It's like, it's not a self-fulfilling prophecy to say "if you jump off that cliff you're going to get hurt, don't jump off that cliff" and then watch people not jump off the cliff. Nor is it a self-fulfilling prophecy if you say that and someone does jump off the cliff. The prophecy's not being fulfilled by itself, it's being fulfilled by gravity.

Likewise, here, the prophecy "if we try to reinforce the Chrystovians against the Cardassians, the Cardassians will react angrily" isn't a prophecy being fulfilled by itself. It's being fulfilled by the Cardassian Navy.
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Fact is the only way we could ever hope to help the Chrystovians enough to stop the Cardassians would be to outright make it so we'll go to war if they're attacked. And I'm not sure what it'd take for the Federation Council to agree to that. Membership would probably do it but groups in the Federation Council have delayed membership before for far less important reasons than the varied problems the Chrystovians present, so I'm not sure how easy it'd be to get it done.
 
fasquardon said:
What is your plan?

'Cuz if we're going to help the Chrystovians I don't wanna half-ass this. So at minimum we need to have enough strength to hold the line against the HoH, have an idea of how we might discourage the Cardassians from pushing and have some idea of how we'd handle it if the Cardassians escalate to Ashalla Pact-Federation war.

So far as I can tell, the best option is to build logistical infrastructure towards the Chrystovians while forming an alliance with other powers surrounding the Cardassians and have some sort of task force in one of the borderzone threatening the Cardassians if they make a move towards the Chrystovians. And... If I were the Cardassians I would find that to be an extremely aggressive act. Imagine if the HoH did something similar with the Gorn while courting the Cardassians?
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Highly dependent on how the GMs react, because per Oneiros they're still discussing what the Council would say. This is realistically a political question more than a FADM question because what we do requires political backing to carry it out. If given a free hand, I see two good options to start with.

1) We start trying to deal with things diplomatically. There are members of the Pact who live fairly freely and have good quality of life. We could move to negotiate with the Cardassians using a threat of presence to make them more likely to take the diplomatic option and absorb the Chrystovians fairly peaceably in a matter that allows them to remain relatively independent. This isn't optimal for us in the sense of us wanting allies, but it does reduce the sophontian cost while not necessarily embroiling us in war.

2) We choose to grab things by the throat and make the Chrystovians too hard a target for the Cardassians. 5-6 ship TF to affiliate ASAP. Snakepit purchases of prefab fortifications and mines to ship to them to stiffen resistance. Lend-lease ConnieBs and consider a tactical ConstieB remanufacturing so we could refit and send them some of the 14 Federalized Consties that we may not end up using much. They would need crews for them but I suspect with our support they could go to a wartime economy and crew them with subpar crews; this wouldn't be ideal but they would be operating as basically mobile defense platforms to make taking systems difficult. Built up their navy to 125-150C and cover all their worlds in Reinforced Outposts with Weapons Platforms and the Cardassians either need to dedicate 250-300C of ships to punch them out or accept heavy losses, which is a significant deterrent (especially if we have fleets sitting on the borders going "go ahead and try it.") Per Oneiros 60-40 the Cardassians choose to risk war/avoid war so this is the high risk option.

I'm good with either, but it really grinds my gears to let the fash just roll over smaller powers. We know of the Bajorans and Kohbeerians (sp?) just within a relatively short time, and the latter was never mentioned again as part of the Pact, so who knows what happened to them. Probably occupied and enslaved. There could be an easy dozen more worlds that used to belong to someone and are now occupied with integration completed, or even genocided. A policy that secures the Chrystovians and pulls in the Allupii is the start to a means of containing Pact aggression.

fasquardon said:
Why? Maybe it would be better to let them become a friendly great power.

I don't see why our choice has to be "Gorn are Cardassian or Federation".
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Right now, the Cardassians are trying to affiliate them. If we leave, the Cardassians grab them. Chasing off the Cardassians will likely require us to do like the HoH and break a 100pt tag, affiliate the Gorn, then break the rest of the tag when it advances to 300pt. We could just do that and not chase them any further and see if they evolve into a Great Power, but I don't really see a way to make the Cardassians stop without pulling the Gorn in ourselves. I'm open to suggestions for ways to make them a friendly independent as compared to an affiliate of either side, but I don't see how it's going to work out.

Moreover, their domestic side is nasty as fuck and I'd really like to see them not be so shitty to their population. Dickensian Nightmare is a tag of theirs after all.
 
Forgothrax said:
2) We choose to grab things by the throat and make the Chrystovians too hard a target for the Cardassians. 5-6 ship TF to affiliate ASAP. Snakepit purchases of prefab fortifications and mines to ship to them to stiffen resistance. Lend-lease ConnieBs and consider a tactical ConstieB remanufacturing so we could refit and send them some of the 14 Federalized Consties that we may not end up using much. They would need crews for them but I suspect with our support they could go to a wartime economy and crew them with subpar crews; this wouldn't be ideal but they would be operating as basically mobile defense platforms to make taking systems difficult. Built up their navy to 125-150C and cover all their worlds in Reinforced Outposts with Weapons Platforms and the Cardassians either need to dedicate 250-300C of ships to punch them out or accept heavy losses, which is a significant deterrent (especially if we have fleets sitting on the borders going "go ahead and try it.") Per Oneiros 60-40 the Cardassians choose to risk war/avoid war so this is the high risk option.
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Well, if it's a vote I'll vote against this.

Right now, the Cardassians are trying to affiliate them. If we leave, the Cardassians grab them. Chasing off the Cardassians will likely require us to do like the HoH and break a 100pt tag, affiliate the Gorn, then break the rest of the tag when it advances to 300pt. We could just do that and not chase them any further and see if they evolve into a Great Power, but I don't really see a way to make the Cardassians stop without pulling the Gorn in ourselves. I'm open to suggestions for ways to make them a friendly independent as compared to an affiliate of either side, but I don't see how it's going to work out.
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There's no requirement to affiliate them, merely to break the Cardassian influence tag.

What the HoH situation has shown is that those are two separate affairs. It would be perfectly possible to break Cardassian influence by doing their tag (chasing them off) without raising the Gorn relationship high enough to affiliate them. One has nothing to do with the other.
 
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Briefvoice said:
What the HoH situation has shown is that those are two separate affairs. It would be perfectly possible to break Cardassian influence by doing their tag (chasing them off) without raising the Gorn relationship high enough to affiliate them. One has nothing to do with the other.
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Whether it's through random events or the random free diplopushes we get to a certain number of non-affiliates, sooner or later they're going to get to 100 and become our affiliate. Then the auto-pushes will take care of the rest, sooner or later.
 
Ugh, everyone's overthinking this. What we need to do is take the Chrystovian's home planet, and move it somewhere else. If the problem is geographical, then we just need to change the map. It's not like we have space-time warping technology or anything.
 
Briefvoice said:
Well, if it's a vote I'll vote against this.



There's no requirement to affiliate them, merely to break the Cardassian influence tag.

What the HoH situation has shown is that those are two separate affairs. It would be perfectly possible to break Cardassian influence by doing their tag (chasing them off) without raising the Gorn relationship high enough to affiliate them. One has nothing to do with the other.
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Unfortunately, the game mechanics don't really have an option for minor nations not aligned to either faction indefinitely. The best we can do is just not diplo-push them deliberately, but even then we still have the random pushes. The best we can hope for is a situation like the Sotaw where neither side is interested in allying them and so it's passive diplomacy only. And even their situation seems likely to end soon if they finalize their deals with the Romulans.
 
Just throwing things out there, but what if we could get the HoH involved in some kind of joint effort on behalf of the Chrystovians?
  • They love rolling in to save someone and then setting up shop.
  • They are easily tough enough to make the Cardassians think twice.
  • It's far enough from their space to be logistically untenable without our cooperation, limiting their ability to cause lasting mischief.
  • If they do still somehow take over, it will be with much less of a sophantarian cost that the Cardassians taking over would have.
  • This is the kind of thing their people, and any leaders who drink the koolaid, would be inclined to get behind.
  • This is the kind of thing people genuinely looking to improve communication and understanding and the like between us and them would get behind.
  • A joint peacekeeping operation between powers the Cardassians know to be semi-unfriendly rivals at best is both less threatening to the Cardassians themselves and potentially a bigger deterrent against aggression.
  • We might have useful intel-gathering opportunities on Horizon capabilities, though they would have similar opportunities against us and some limited opportunities for direct mischief in our space.
 
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