- Location
- Southampton, Great Britain
- Pronouns
- He/Him
The Romulans have a religion?
To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)
- Thread starter OneirosTheWriter
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- star trek exploration fully automated luxury gay space communism top level canon (canon) #hashtagcontent all-encompassing space amoeba cardassian boy bands cardassian magical girls darkest bureaucracy debate makes the qm cackle like palpatine hoh is an empire quest it has to be foreign infiltrators more ships ship happens singers delenda est starfleet this is not an empire quest ur waifu is collective?
The Romulans have a religion?
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Federation memes seem to be more effective across a broad range of species.
Klingon memes as they now exist are spectacularly, ridiculously effective... for Klingons.
Thus, the Federation is an expanding multispecies polity, albeit one that keeps running up against things that it can't absorb or that it doesn't really have an answer for within its cultural palette.
The Klingons are a disproportionately strong single-species polity, one that may or may not be expanding depending on how much asskicking it can do.
Klingon memes as they now exist are spectacularly, ridiculously effective... for Klingons.
Thus, the Federation is an expanding multispecies polity, albeit one that keeps running up against things that it can't absorb or that it doesn't really have an answer for within its cultural palette.
The Klingons are a disproportionately strong single-species polity, one that may or may not be expanding depending on how much asskicking it can do.
- Location
- California
Alas the strategic meme situation has changed in their favor. They have now been subsumed by LOGH and the Federation must prepare to be inundated with people wondering if things would be different if other people were here and overly attractive chancellors.
- Location
- Outside the Box
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Article: From a certain perspective, the Culture is not all that different from Star Trek's Borg. The difference is that Banks tricks the reader into, in effect, sympathizing with the Borg.19 Indeed, his sly suggestion is that we – those of us living in modern, liberal societies – are a part of the Borg. In Star Trek, the Borg are a vulgar caricature. "You will be assimilated, you will service the Borg" – this is probably not how the Borg see it. "We're just here to help. Beside, how could you possibly not want to join?" – this is how the Culture sees itself. Yet from the outside, the Culture and the Borg have certain essential similarities.
I am now 20% more worried about the HoH than I was before.
I have to wonder what the UFP's response to the Culture would be. Not the disparity in tech level, but the philosophical one. Starfleet's fancy ships depend on planetwide economies that employ 'zillions of different jobs that the Culture has no need for, and perhaps if the Federation shared that lack of need they would be more similar. Still, I believe that the best response lies with the idea of IDIC: Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations. #VulcanFederation #VulcanConspiracy #LogicalMemes
But really, there's probably way more value to be had in choosing an identity and trying to express that identity than there is in constantly changing identity on a whim. (Unless you want to be a shapeshifter for a few years...)
I'm sitting here watching sealife on the show Blue Planet right now but was unable to fit the incredible awesome super fantastic variation I'm seeing into the rest of this post.
Especially these super huge whales! Woo!
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Honestly, the Federation might well evolve into the Culture if you gave it sufficient time to do so. The Federation hinges on sapient labor and is deeply worried about AI and automation to a level that would make that unnecessary, for historical reasons, but in pretty much all other ways... it's compatible.I am now 20% more worried about the HoH than I was before.Article: From a certain perspective, the Culture is not all that different from Star Trek's Borg. The difference is that Banks tricks the reader into, in effect, sympathizing with the Borg.19 Indeed, his sly suggestion is that we – those of us living in modern, liberal societies – are a part of the Borg. In Star Trek, the Borg are a vulgar caricature. "You will be assimilated, you will service the Borg" – this is probably not how the Borg see it. "We're just here to help. Beside, how could you possibly not want to join?" – this is how the Culture sees itself. Yet from the outside, the Culture and the Borg have certain essential similarities.
I have to wonder what the UFP's response to the Culture would be. Not the disparity in tech level, but the philosophical one. Starfleet's fancy ships depend on planetwide economies that employ 'zillions of different jobs that the Culture has no need for, and perhaps if the Federation shared that lack of need they would be more similar. Still, I believe that the best response lies with the idea of IDIC: Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations. #VulcanFederation #VulcanConspiracy #LogicalMemes
Also, the Harmony and the Borg are, as I understand it, quite different from anything like the Culture. The fundamental difference is that the Borg and the Harmony are both intensely concerned with what their citizens think, and having influence over that thought. In the Borg's case, they take this to the extent of razing your individuality to the ground and turning you into a tele-operated co-processor for their collective. In the Harmony's case, they're a lot more subtle and less extreme about it, but they clearly still put a tremendous amount of effort into making people think things, and imposing constraints on what thoughts are allowed, and on persuading people via underhandedness to join up with them, with the strong implication that without that underhandedness, the joiners might otherwise regret their actions.
The Culture would look at the Borg and see just another 'hegemonizing swarm,' I suspect. They'd look at the Harmony and see, I suspect, a weird bunch of creepy tryhards. Whereas the Federation might well look to them something like a recognizable larval form of their own society.
Enterprise:
"Speaking as a literalized meme that coalesced out of somebodies' collective unconsciousness and now roams a metaphorical landscape of same, may I just say that I have noticed some remarkable advances in Klingon hairdressing over here on the Other Side in the past few years?"
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People like to set the Culture vs the Federation but I agree with Simon -- Culture always struck me as a Federation with much more power, and in a setting where concepts like Minds and genefixed humans could flourish (versus on TV and deliberately "held back" to be #relatable). Relax the PD just a tad to allow some meddling and they're basically aligned philosophically. I don't really see a meaningful conflict.
Even in the Culture, "meddling" is done with great caution and after reassuring themselves that they run the numbers and can ensure a long term positive outcome.
A few quarters ago in the quest, we had that incident where the holo-hut the anthropological researchers were in malfunctioned and it caused the PD-violation. At time I asked why they were even there to start with, why the risk was worth whatever data they were collecting. I've come up with a theory. I think for a lot of sapients in the Federation, the Prime Directive is not so much a final word as a temporary, unsatisfactory stopgap. They're willing to reluctantly admit that interference has too high a chance of doing more harm that good, but that doesn't mean all the usual arguments about suffering that could be alleviated have stopped registering with them.
So it becomes, "We don't know enough at this time." But the only way they can morally square it with themselves is if they are reassured that the Federation is working on it, that someday they will know enough to safely intervene. So people like those researchers become an important part of the bargain being struck, because the only way they'll support the PD is to be reassured that the problem is still being worked on and someday the PD can be relaxed.
- Location
- Outside the Box
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I disagree, but my post is largely a response to the essay linked by Vebyast. (It's a good essay, and worth reading on its own merits!) I don't want to try and repeat/condense that into my post, but to be super brief: As presented in the essay, the Culture is concerned with spreading itself above all else and has little to no room for nonconformity, save as a temporary state to be paved over into more of the Culture. Star Trek is a series concerned with exploration, the unknown, the diversity of the natural world, etc. and Starfleet is much less concerned with having new species join the Federation than it is with simply meeting those new species in the first place. These two conflict with each other. The Culture is not a more ideal form of Utopia than Star Trek. Both have their flaws, perhaps even intentionally. But I'm not one to write lengthy essays; I almost always get worse the longer a post I'm writing stretches out. The essay linked above is much better at examining the Culture than I ever could be.
It's an interesting essay, but it's main premise falls apart when you consider the actual fictional history we are presented with. The purpose of the Culture is to reproduce itself? Nonsense. We can tell because nowhere in the books is there ever any suggestion that any species "joins the Culture". That's not a thing. The Culture doesn't assimilate other new species/cultures. It doesn't grow in that fashion. The Culture is, as far as I can tell, made up pretty much exclusively of the different peoples that came together to form it back in the mists of time. Some individuals may join it, sure, but there aren't entire civilizations signing on. Nor are there a bunch of mini-Cultures growing up as a result of Contact's actions. The Culture is a rare aberration in Galactic history, differing from the usual pattern of civilizations aging and eventually subliming.
"Little to no room for non-conformity" my butt. In fact, the Culture itself is constantly shedding pieces who decide to non-conform and split off. Far from an amoeba assimilating all it encounters, it's constantly having portions evolving away from the main line.
The only "mini-Culture" ever presented in the books, that is a civilization consciously imitating them, are presented as tiresome fanboys who really don't get it and are rather something of a menace in their efforts.
Culture welcomes Earth in the epilogue of Consider Pheblas. They definitely welcome other cultures. But to suggest they enforce some sort of conformity is bizarre.
Comparing them to the Borg is also like completely wrong, since the Borg don't have a culture and people make the exact same comparison between the Borg and the UFP in universe and out of universe. It's still far more UFP than Borg. In fact the Culture is more anarchic than the UFP and certainly more anarchic than the absolute hive mind that is the Borg.
Comparing them to the Borg is also like completely wrong, since the Borg don't have a culture and people make the exact same comparison between the Borg and the UFP in universe and out of universe. It's still far more UFP than Borg. In fact the Culture is more anarchic than the UFP and certainly more anarchic than the absolute hive mind that is the Borg.
The problem with that essay about the Culture is that it's an analysis solely based on one novel from the Culture-verse, which was told from the POV of someone antagonistic to the Culture in-universe. Needless to say, there's a problem with unreliable narration even before you get to the issue of scale and scope.
Its claim that the Culture is memetic and virulent assumes that the Culture's Contact division has its hands in every primitive world in the setting, and that its Special Circumstances operatives are everywhere...which is not the case.
It assumes that the Culture has no peers or superiors in the setting based solely on its win over the Iridans, which is again not the case. The Culture is just one advanced polity in a galaxy full of polities as advanced, more advanced, or like unto gods (the Sublimed), as there are less advanced than it. In that respect, the claim that the Culture's culture is memetically superior than anything else obviously falls flat.
EDIT: Here's what Banks himself had to say about Contact:
Its claim that the Culture is memetic and virulent assumes that the Culture's Contact division has its hands in every primitive world in the setting, and that its Special Circumstances operatives are everywhere...which is not the case.
It assumes that the Culture has no peers or superiors in the setting based solely on its win over the Iridans, which is again not the case. The Culture is just one advanced polity in a galaxy full of polities as advanced, more advanced, or like unto gods (the Sublimed), as there are less advanced than it. In that respect, the claim that the Culture's culture is memetically superior than anything else obviously falls flat.
EDIT: Here's what Banks himself had to say about Contact:
Article: In general the Culture doesn't actively encourage immigration; it looks too much like a disguised form of colonialism. Contact's preferred methods are intended to help other civilisations develop their own potential as a whole, and are designed to neither leech away their best and brightest, nor turn such civilisations into miniature versions of the Culture. Individuals, groups and even whole lesser civilisations do become part of the Culture on occasion, however, if there seems to be a particularly good reason (and if Contact reckons it won't upset any other interested parties in the locality).
...
Contact is the most coherent and consistent part of the Culture - certainly when considered on a galactic scale - yet it is only a very small part of it, is almost a civilisation within a civilisation, and no more typifies its host than an armed service does a peaceful state. Even the Cultures's prized language, Marain, is not spoken by every Culture person, and is used well outside the limits of the civilisation itself.
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Vebyast
Nascent Transhuman
In fact, isn't that aggressive tolerance the key to the Culture's virulence? The Culture's ideas can infect any host because the only major tenets are "accept everyone", "don't be a dick", and "the Culture is great". It's the same reason that the Federation is blue-blobbing so efficiently in TBG - all we really care about are A) don't be a dick B) IDIC and C) the Federation is awesome.
Uh, let me just pull some relevant quotes from Wikipedia:
Article: 0The Culture is a posthuman society, which originally arose when seven or eight roughly humanoid space-faring species coalesced into a quasi-collective (a group-civilization) ultimately consisting of approximately thirty trillion (short scale) sentient beings (this includes artificial intelligences). In Banks's universe, a good part (but by no means an overwhelming percentage) of all sentient species is of the "pan-human" type, as noted in Matter.
Although the Culture was originated by humanoid species, subsequent interactions with other civilizations have introduced many non-humanoid species into the Culture (including some former enemy civilizations), though the majority of the biological Culture is still pan-human.
Article: The Culture, living mostly on massive spaceships and in artificial habitats, and also feeling no need for conquest in the typical sense of the word, possesses no borders. Its sphere of influence is better defined by the (current) concentration of Culture ships and habitats as well as the measure of effect its example and its interventions have already had on the "local" population of any galactic sector. As the Culture is also a very graduated and constantly evolving society, its societal boundaries are also constantly in flux (though they tend to be continually expanding during the novels), peacefully "absorbing" societies and individuals.
...
An Involved society is a highly advanced group that has achieved galaxy-wide involvement with other cultures or societies. There are a few dozen Involved societies and hundreds or thousands of well-developed (interstellar) but insufficiently influential societies or cultures; there are also well-developed societies known as "galactically mature" which do not take a dynamic role in the galaxy as a whole. In the novels, the Culture might be considered the premier Involved society, or at least the most dynamic and energetic, especially given that the Culture itself is a growing multicultural fusion of Involved societies.
Article: Although they lead a comfortable life within the Culture, many of its citizens feel a need to be useful and to belong to a society that does not merely exist for their own sake but that also helps improve the lot of sentient beings throughout the galaxy. For that reason the Culture carries out "good works", covertly or overtly interfering in the development of lesser civilizations, with the main aim to gradually guide them towards less damaging paths. As Culture citizens see it these good works provide the Culture with a "moral right to exist".
Article: Only one story, Consider Phlebas, pits the Culture against a highly illiberal society of approximately equal power: the aggressive, theocratic Idirans. Though they posed no immediate, direct threat to the Culture, the Culture declared war because it would have felt useless if it allowed the Idirans' ruthless expansion to continue.
Article: The conflict was one of principles; the Culture went to war because the Idirans' fanatical imperial expansion, justified on religious grounds, threatened the Culture's "moral right to exist". As the Culture saw it, the Idirans' extending sphere of influence would prevent them from improving the lives of those in less-advanced societies, and thus would greatly curtail the Culture's sense of purpose.
Article: Despite the relatively small scale, in comparison with the rumoured conflicts of the past as referred to by the sublimed species of the galaxy, the IdiranCulture war is considered one of the more significant events in the galactic history of the Culture setting.
Article: Later in the timeline of the Culture's universe, the Culture has reached a technological level at which most past civilizations have Sublimed, in other words disengaged from Galactic politics and from most physical interaction with other civilizations. The Culture continues to behave "like an idealistic adolescent".[16]
The Culture is explicitly one of the most influential entities in the galaxy. It consciously holds itself back from Subliming or advancing so much that politeness would demand its withdrawal from galactic affairs. It does this so that it can continue to satisfy its self-acknowledged Reason for Existence, that of pushing its neighbors to be "better". One of the flaws that is consistently attributed to the Minds, as a class of sophont, is that they are astoundingly inveterate meddlers, every single one of them being demonstrated to have its fingers in everything on every scale and at every turn. And the Culture's definition of "better" is simple enough and broad enough that this does in fact guarantee that everything neighboring the Culture is mini-Cultures. The Culture builds its own living space, is highly tolerant, and pushes its neighbors to be similarly highly tolerant, meaning that the Culture is free to scatter itself through the nominal territory of other polities, which in turn guarantees that the Culture's "neighbors" are pretty much everyone.Article: But I don't think you have to have a society like the Culture in order for people to live. The Culture is a self-consciously stable and long-lived society that wants to go on living for thousands of years. Lots of other civilizations within the same universe hit the Culture's technological level and even the actuality of the Culture's utopia, but it doesn't last very long that's the difference.
The Culture may not formally assimilate other cultures the way the Federation does, but it's pretty much a paper-thin technicality, and the rest is effectively identical.
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I've read the books; I don't need to read wikipedia. I don't think wikipedia is accurate.
Vebyast
Nascent Transhuman
I've read the books; I'm citing Wikipedia because it's faster than writing it all out msyelf. I think that Wikipedia is absolutely spot-on, especially when it directly quotes Banks and Culture citizens on the philosophy of the Culture.
Despite initial misgivings I think we're incredibly fortunate to have the ISC on our border.
It's just great having one Major Power neighbor who we can rely upon to Not undermine us, invade us, play mind games with us, or have a civil war for the fun of it is super important for peace of mind and stability.
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- Location
- Australia
I'm reading up on some stories about fighter jet production lines and what have you, and I have this incredible pang of regret that I didn't spend April Fools telling you guys that I was expanding ship construction to make you guys manage component production lines for warp cores, drives, phasers, etc.
I bet people would have believed me too...
I bet people would have believed me too...
Wait, where'd that omake come from? The hell?
We'd have it spreadsheeted before you'd even finalize the mechanics.
People lost it in the weekend omake flood.
- Location
- Australia
You would too, smug buggers :lol
Can you name an example of a polity that the Culture absorbed? The most recent Culture novel I read, "The Hydrogen Sonata", had the Culture engaging in diplomacy with at least 1 peer power, 2 lesser powers, (and getting cryptic messages from one or more higher powers). At no point did the Culture try to play socio-political games to influence the overall society/politics of any of them. The extent of meddling was confined to whether or not to tell certain uncomfortable truths to certain individuals that were actively seeking it, which, in the end, only impacted those individuals and not their societies.
The Minds do meddle, internally and in the affairs of others, but only when it's "interesting" stuff happening, especially when it comes to peer or near-peer powers and they have to also consider diplomatic ramifications.
The "good works" done by Contact are primarily the kind that's cut and dry "or else rocks fall and people die". They're works that are publicly open for anyone's inspection, after all. Anything on the order of dodgy manipulation are done by Special Circumstance, and they're... well, special circumstances only.
Also, the Culture itself doesn't actually have a monolithic cultural identity either, but actually spans a great spectrum of "culture" and ideals. There are any number of Eccentrics (both ship and crew) off doing their own weird and wacky thing. And the whole absence of actual law and government only supports that kind of "cultural" fracturing within the Culture itself. Thus, it makes it hard for them to be a memetic and virulent influence on others if they don't have a single memetic identity to put forth.
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ClawClawBite
Mad Engineering!
- Location
- Seattle, WA
If you did reference real world fighter jets production, I'm sure I could make all kinds of 'helpful' suggestions. I almost mentioned the current concurrent engineering philosophy in the design thread when building prototyped with the goal of refitting before they even left the yards was raised.
- Location
- Australia
Actually, I think the other thing that had that on my mind was @brmj's Yrillian omake.
lbmaian
a thirsty squirrel
- Location
- USA
@anon_user I finally have corrections for relations values in the deployment vote update:
-[Ashalla Pact: 130/300]
Since start of 2323, we've had the following relations changes (besides the addition of the [On the Brink of War: N/A] and Gorn tags):
This is missing the annual diplo roll of 31 from the 2322 snakepit, which puts them at 500/500 and a rollover of 26 into the 'Fool me once...' tag.
This is missing the annual diplo roll of 19 from the 2322 snakepit, which puts them at 499/500.
Horizon Influence should be at 94/300, not 94/100.
A nitpick: this should have the following tag for historical reasons:
Dylaarians have been at 60/100 since 2313 or so. 2322 snakepit values for them also confirms this.
Since start of 2323, we've had the following relations changes (besides the addition of the [On the Brink of War: N/A] and Gorn tags):
- +20 to Muuyozoi/OSA and -30 to Licori/AE from 'Deny the Patroller-A license for the Licori' [BETZA] MWCD vote
- -15 to Muuyozoi/OSA, -15 to Laio, -15 to Licori/AE from 'Accept neither offer' [SCRAP] MWCD vote
- +3 to Dreamers 'Alien modes of Communication and Thought' diplo tag from charysa's chosen omake reward
Quick Question: Are there any ships that are planned to be mothballed/decommissioned after Federalization? I had a story idea for the 50% of crew that didn't qualify for Starfleet, and wanted to see if there were any ships that were in a similar situation before I started on it. Also if there are any mothballed ships lying around in museums or something.
I'm not aware of any plans to decommission any ships currently. We are still on the need more ships to fill the ever hungry void of our tasks. Once the Kepler/Comet designs are available in numbers, maybe we might be able to consider standing designs down.
If it was to happen, leading classes would be:
Oberth - outclassed by the Kepler, for which mass production has started, but the first wave isn't completed yet.
Miranda-A - becoming too small, too old, yet available in great numbers. Within ten years I predict either a life extension refit, or the scrapping of this class to begin.
The Betazed Patroller-As - fine for a local garrison, but lacking for the work Starfleet usually carries out. More likely to be sold on to other members/allies/affiliates with a need for modern ships, without the territory size to cover, than outright decommissioned.
If it was to happen, leading classes would be:
Oberth - outclassed by the Kepler, for which mass production has started, but the first wave isn't completed yet.
Miranda-A - becoming too small, too old, yet available in great numbers. Within ten years I predict either a life extension refit, or the scrapping of this class to begin.
The Betazed Patroller-As - fine for a local garrison, but lacking for the work Starfleet usually carries out. More likely to be sold on to other members/allies/affiliates with a need for modern ships, without the territory size to cover, than outright decommissioned.