The Sandman
So Zetta Slowpoke
- Location
- Wherever I am, which isn't where I'm not
So when we investigate the latest Prime Directive violation, are we going to need to find a pair of humpbacks first? It is a Whale probe, after all.
To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)
- Thread starter OneirosTheWriter
- Start date
- Sci-Fi
-
- Tags
- star trek exploration fully automated luxury gay space communism top level canon (canon) #hashtagcontent all-encompassing space amoeba cardassian boy bands cardassian magical girls darkest bureaucracy debate makes the qm cackle like palpatine hoh is an empire quest it has to be foreign infiltrators more ships ship happens singers delenda est starfleet this is not an empire quest ur waifu is collective?
It's a bit early, but let's look at potential Snakepit expenditures. Let's say we have 334 pp at the end of the year after income.
Then in the Fleet Distribution vote, we keep the 16 points of member ships we have (30pp) and call up another 8 pt (60 pp) for a cost of 90 pp.
New total = 244 pp. Let's assume a modest 25 pp in 2323.Q1. Now we're at 269 pp.
I consider the following expenditures pretty locked in:
Reorganise a Starfleet Command from a Vice Admiral position to an Admiral position. Pick one: 50pp for Shipyard Ops, (This may create subordinate Vice Admiral positions)*
5 mines = 35pp
5 diplo pushes = 100 pp
*Federalization is going to triple this position's workload... it has to become an Admiral position next opportunity.
We're already at 185pp. 84pp left.
If we buy a tech team for 60pp, that's 24pp left.
...so much for a new shipyard or the Argus telescope.
Of course, if we don't buy the extra 8pts of member ships we could save 60pp. Do that and don't buy a Tech Team an we can afford an Argus or to start a new UP style yard.
But if so, forget this "Task Force for everything" business. Painful choices will have to be made about what Task Fores we decline to reinforce or don't create. It might be OSA "Corps are Lying to Us" or Gorn, pick one.
Thoughts?
Then in the Fleet Distribution vote, we keep the 16 points of member ships we have (30pp) and call up another 8 pt (60 pp) for a cost of 90 pp.
New total = 244 pp. Let's assume a modest 25 pp in 2323.Q1. Now we're at 269 pp.
I consider the following expenditures pretty locked in:
Reorganise a Starfleet Command from a Vice Admiral position to an Admiral position. Pick one: 50pp for Shipyard Ops, (This may create subordinate Vice Admiral positions)*
5 mines = 35pp
5 diplo pushes = 100 pp
*Federalization is going to triple this position's workload... it has to become an Admiral position next opportunity.
We're already at 185pp. 84pp left.
If we buy a tech team for 60pp, that's 24pp left.
...so much for a new shipyard or the Argus telescope.
Of course, if we don't buy the extra 8pts of member ships we could save 60pp. Do that and don't buy a Tech Team an we can afford an Argus or to start a new UP style yard.
But if so, forget this "Task Force for everything" business. Painful choices will have to be made about what Task Fores we decline to reinforce or don't create. It might be OSA "Corps are Lying to Us" or Gorn, pick one.
Thoughts?
I really want that Starship Construction tech team. I consider that mandatory, unless the research revamp changes the need.
- Location
- Austin, TX
What about four pushes and both task forces?
I'm with HearthBorn, is it really necessary to have 5 Diplopushes?
UbeOne
Daydreaming CPU
- Location
- Philippines
- Pronouns
- She/Her
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Well, we're coming up on a fairly critical point here. Rimwards needs a bunch of different pushes if we're to solidify our ties there and oppose the Horizon-we still need to officially affiliate the Licori and possibly the Felis. We all want to get the Dreamers affiliated asap because they're so neat and we don't want the Horizon to get them. And every turn we don't push the Breen is another turn towards them exploding unexpectedly outwards in a burst of random violence. There's also the Shanpurr, where the Cardassians have been trying to make inroads...
Vebyast
Nascent Transhuman
Maybe we could save some pp by letting the ISC handle the Felis? They've got, uh, a ridiculous shitload of TF headed that direction, 108P total.
- Location
- Austin, TX
The OSA tag likely will shine some light on what the HoH is up to in that area, while our window of opportunity with the Gorn is likely very limited. Are all of the five planned pushes as high of a priority? The Dreamers, as fun as they are, aren't on anyone else's radar yet as far as we can tell. Pushes of the Licori and Felis may not be needed if a random push happens in the Snakepit, but with the current work of the taskforce, is it absolutely needed this time around? And sure, I can get behind a Breen and Shanpurr push.
Edit: FYI...
Felis: 73/100 Last Snakepit + 15 from Captain's Log Q3M1 = 88/100
Licori (Arcadian Empire): 100/100
-[Romulan Influence: 45/100 Last Snakepit] + 35 Snakepit Results = 80/100
Edit 2, Shanpurr
Shanpurr: 55/100 Last Snakepit
+ 10 Captain's Log Q2M1 = 65/100
+ 15 Captain's Log Q3M3 = 80/100
+ 10 Captain's Log Q4M1 = 90/100
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Enerael
We Shall Wake to Sanity
Not so. The problem is that engaging them in any capacity affects them enormously. Like, total social and cultural revolution. What right do we have to force that onto them? And how do you engage a disunified race anyway? Who makes their choices and by what right? PD treats them as adults by not taking their choices away from them on the basis of us knowing better.
Giving them the right to choose? Imagine some advanced alliens doing that to us right now. Or worse, couple centuries or millenia ago.
Our society would be unrecognizable in short order. Not to mention the wars. And who would choose for us? A bunch of kings and chieftans? That would end badly, to put it lightly.
It is one thing to not treat a race like a bunch of children. Another to give them nukes. And I am not speaking of just weapons or technology here, think of the power of christianity for example, or the theory of evolution.
She did think it through. She just quessed badly how they would react. Considering that they are an entirely different race and culture, that was always a significant possibility.
Which is why, again, we would interfere with an extinction event.
They are adults, and responsible for themselves. They also think that they are the only person alive in this methaphor, never having met another. Revealing our existance alone would change them thoroughly. What if some aliens did this to us centuries ago? Humanity would be culturally indoctrinated by accident and completely unrecognizable by now.
Culture to a group of people is what a mind is to a person. It is important. The greatest difference between us and Cardassians, HoH, or Romulans, are our cultures. The UFP can be defined as a culture far more then as a set of laws or people. To erase a culture is aguably a far worse crime then murder. Ofc some people need to be reeducated or executed sometimes, but the point stands.
Technology is irrelevant, except as a useful benchmark of a societies development. Also, once a society has warp, avoiding contact is no longer viable.
What really matters is culture, and some knowledge. Not a technology level.
We would need really good relations with them.
So, hopefully, nothing?
Edit: Debating philosophy and morality is hard enough without doing it through text in my non-native language on a tablet. I am probably wording it very badly, and would recommend googleing some papers on the PD made by people qualified to talk about it.
Edit2: Most of this post has been edited multiple times.
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- Location
- alphen aan den rijn
as far as i can tell game wise no
be an interesting time for the group in the middle
be an interesting time for the group in the middle
Problem with letting them go is it puts ISC and Harmony right next to each other, which could mean a massive war that we might end up getting sucked up into, since a lot of the stellar presences there are unaffiliated or weakly affiliated. Especially true if Harmony's MO i to cause chaos and take advantage of it.
On another note: Since the GMs have been trying to find a way to rework Horizon into being a bigger power... Maybe we go the name wrong?
They're not the Harmony of Horizon, they're the Horizon of Harmony.
We already know they favor massive ships with plenty of power/stats to act as command centers, maybe the original power had a colony type ship, near the same size as the Kadeshi mothership, designed to be broken down to found a powerful homeworld from which to expand. Even if they couldn't absorb all of the powers that they encountered, it would still create a potent foothold and forward base when they finally reconnected with the original Harmony, isolating powers between them from allies and reinforcements. When you're surrounded on all sides, it's often wiser to surrender than face obliteration.
If you put it that way, we might be far too late to stop them without massive collateral damage. We already saw a war play out between major powers, but if one of them had reinforcements waiting in the wings... I doubt that the other side would have survived.
The diplomatic war we've been fighting might only be the beginning...
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Much as it galls me, we probably need the research team more than the new slipway or telescope right now.
- Location
- Australia
We actually haven't been making them any larger. The early intelligence estimates were simply short on what we had listed at the time (because of the state of various factors that affected their accuracy).
Note that removal of the Horizon tags and affiliation are two different things.
The ISC TF's mission isn't to affiliate the Felis; it's to remove the HoH influence tag.
75% Certain
25% horse thief
Seems the Ittick-ka mostly got lost in the noise of one very busy Intel report. Some parts have been brought up, but others have gotten less attention. So, let's decode this a bit more.
1) The Ittick-ka didn't intentionally suicide-ram the Planet Killer. At least, from this account, their plan seems to have been to launch "holy arrows" and bug the fuck out, although it was perhaps seen as a long-shot. Going Full Decker appears to be a call made by the Champion on the spot.
2) The Ittick-ka were a starfaring race for quite some time prior to this encounter, although the specifics are murky. While they don't seem to have been conquered through force of arms, they were very keenly aware of them.
3) The "pale-faces and their hairy killers" might be the Hur'q and their Klingon auxiliaries? If so, probably small-scale raiding. The Gorn seem to have come later, but only their uniforms warrant mention; to me, this implies that they never dealt with Gorn warships. Those things, after all, are rather memorable.
4) "Woodsmen and their world-ships" don't just sound terrifying/amazing, they also appear to warrant a second line, "And the appetite of the planet-scourer". That is NOT the Planet Killer. The flow doesn't make sense if it were. Maybe we should start asking the Obar some hard questions about what they've been up to??
5) At least the Gorn and the Obaroids (not-Obar? Nobar??) seem to have dealt with the petty-kings in a forthright manner, likely either through trade or straight-up aid/relief money. It's telling that the modern Ittick-ka attribute the waste of that money solely on their ancestors, rather than attributing some malfeasance (either vague or specific) to their benefactors.
6) It seems likely that the Ittick-ka have been left alone to develop since at least their unification into a single government at the hands of the Seven Sages; the Dark Forest is therefore a lie. If that logic had prevailed upon any of their neighbors, our insectoid friends would no longer exist. I wouldn't be surprised if, on some level, elements of their society recognize this.
Night
Widow Null
- Location
- Hoff
Woodsmen does not necessarily imply plant life. It can also (edit: and indeed normally does) imply those who live in the woods or are adept in the woods, which could be a reference to certain groups of the Xindi in combination with the second line.
It may also be a direct reference to the concept of the Dark Forest itself. In fact, that seems very likely. Woodsmen would imply a space-fairing race, possibly having fled their homeworld from the second line.
It may also be a direct reference to the concept of the Dark Forest itself. In fact, that seems very likely. Woodsmen would imply a space-fairing race, possibly having fled their homeworld from the second line.
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I can't see where you're getting this interpretation. Nothing suggests that the petty-kings were the beneficiaries of offworld aid. The gorn and woodsmen were things that "beset" the Ittick-ka.
My issue with the PD is that the literal interpretation of it goes against the rest of the core values of the federation and is even self defeating to a degree. Namely the live and let live part that is supposed to be what the federation is all about. People have the right to self determinate/decide their fate , but they actually need to be alive to be able to do that.
The end result is that if you interfere to save a civ you violate their ability to self determinate to a degree but if you let them die you also violate their right to self determinate because they now are unable to do so at all and you could have prevented that by choosing to do something but did nothing instead. In effect it becomes impossible to avoid violating the PD in these situations.
This makes sense to me, my opinion is that prime directive is ment to be a deterent, a reminder, and a method of accountability for captains out in deep space. It' ment to act as a safety on said cowboys gun and to remind them that their actions have consequences for everyone including them. That they will be judged on what they do, and that everyone are equally right to live and grow by their own measure.
The end result is that if you interfere to save a civ you violate their ability to self determinate to a degree but if you let them die you also violate their right to self determinate because they now are unable to do so at all and you could have prevented that by choosing to do something but did nothing instead. In effect it becomes impossible to avoid violating the PD in these situations.
This makes sense to me, my opinion is that prime directive is ment to be a deterent, a reminder, and a method of accountability for captains out in deep space. It' ment to act as a safety on said cowboys gun and to remind them that their actions have consequences for everyone including them. That they will be judged on what they do, and that everyone are equally right to live and grow by their own measure.
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It's not clear to me that this demonstrates that they were starfaring. If they were, I would expect a crew instead of a single champion. Instead, this sounds like it could almost as easily be pre-warp but with a reasonably developed space program. The image that keeps wanting to pop into my mind is something in the same mold as the plans for future missions NASA was coming up with during the space race, with a couple nuclear missiles tacked onto the side. A simple capsule, maybe a little habitat section, a service module, some solar panels or a compact fission reactor, and chemical or nuclear thermal rockets. The vulnerability of a planet killer is such that such a ship, if it could avoid notice and carried "holy arrows" with an adequate payload, could probably do the job. As for how they survived to that point, a pre-warp industrial society with no noteworthy resources, ruled by corrupt petty kings and both willing and able to fight hard enough on the ground to discourage outright conquest actually seems more likely to remain a viable independent entity than an early post-warp society.
Some more supporting evidence:
This feels like trajectory or mission design, and the kind of cheklists one associates more with NASA than starfleet. Transfer orbits rather than warping wherever is needed, perhaps.
That is very clearly an old-school spacesuit, complete with the kind of mirrored visor you need for EVA or walking around on the moon but do not need if you are flying a starship and are wearing it just in case you lose pressure.
Rather than fair and equal trade, this sounds to me more like the petty kings were willing to trade away the resources of their planet and maybe even their own people as slaves in exchange to trinkets and what the civilizations they encountered saw as a few points of BR, thus making themselves useful enough that the resistance conquest would create and the expense of ruling afterwards was no longer cost effective in comparison.
Um the Obar are literally on the other side of known space from the Ittick-Ka. We don't know where exactly Ittick-Ka territory is since it's off the map but we know they've conquered the Daw and they are at the center of -10 while the Obar are up at the 6/7 line. That gives a corewards-spinwards distance of ~165LY. Even at modern day Starfleet cruising speeds (Warp 8) that almost four months of travel. Given that the Obar are pretty much a single planet species; well I don't see them traveling that far either regularly enough or in large enough numbers to be notable enough to be listed alongside the Gorn, Hur'q, and World Killer.
Given their dark forest viewpoint the woodsmen and world ships almost certainly refers to people who live in space. My bet is on that referring to the Hishmeri Septs since they came from that region of space and seem to be slow enough travelers that they could have stuck around long enough to leave a serious impact on the Ittick-Ka.