To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)

Briefvoice · Apr 4, 2018

Oshha said:
I dunno, they seem to only be dying because they a pre-warp. I doubt if they weren't pre-warp, folks wouldn't be so okay with leaving them to die as they are and I doubt anybody here would be arguing that we should have left them to die if they were from a warp-capable civ or species. If you change [cultural/racial/biological/regional] to [cultural/racial/biological/regional/warp-level/species] then it starts to look a lot like genocide again.

That sums up my stance on the matter. What if it wasn't a prewarp civ, but Cardie or Romulan colony? Would we still have some people suggesting that we should have arguing that Toressa Lalen should have left them to die?

I don't see many people suggesting leaving them to die. This was an unnatural catastrophe caused by malfunctioning Federation technology. It was clearly our responsibility to clean up the mess under any PD interpretation.

But it was Lalen's responsibility to figure out how to do so without compromising their culture. Not her fault, but her responsibility.

Enerael said:
Pre-warp societies are not mature enough to make the decision of accepting or rejecting our help. Few would even have planetary government or equivalent to choose for their species.

There is also the issue of cultural 'weight' for lack of better term. Any contact between barbarians and people with advanced culture, technology, and education will almost certainly have similar results to putting a drop of green color into a bucket of blue. Dissolution.

One of, if not the, Federation core value is Freedom. It does not presume to be pre-warp civilizations parent, and therefore have the right to violate their freedoms for their own good.

The Federation fucked up with malfunctioning technology that drew a large crowd into the area and then caused a storm to kill that crowd. Interference had already happened.

Enerael · Apr 4, 2018

Vebyast said:
You don't get to say it's okay because they "only" lost a hand or a finger, or because it'd all be cleared up by a month in the hospital.

You keep assuming that they are children and us responsible adults.

That is not the case. How would you like it if some advanced aliens came down to forbid us to eat meat because it is wrong and we are silly children who cant be left to make their own decisions?

Children and their restrictions/lack of rights are a special subcategory of sophonts, an exception. We dont get to apply it to anyone we please.

Much less name ourselves the adults.

Vebyast said:
Also, fun fact: You don't have to "own" a child to abuse it.

Sure, but how do you abuse something you are not responsible of by not helping them? You can harm them by doing so, yes, but calling it abuse?

English is not my native language, so I might be mistaken what the word means? Google seems to agree with me if I read the definitions correctly.

Briefvoice said:
The Federation fucked up with malfunctioning technology that drew a large crowd into the area and then caused a storm to kill that crowd. Interference had already happened.

I agree.

065tdsa · Apr 4, 2018

Enerael said:
You keep assuming that they are children and us responsible adults.

That is not the case. How would you like it if some advanced aliens came down to forbid us to eat meat because it is wrong and we are silly children who cant be left to make their own decisions?

Children and their restrictions/lack of rights are a special subcategory of sophonts, an exception. We dont get to apply it to anyone we please.

Much less name ourselves the adults.

But the PD doesn't treat them like adults. In fact, it assumes they are incapable of making their own decisions and that we should hide from them and spy them instead of engaging them like adults.

You can't have it both ways. Either they are children who can't make their own decisions and we should take care of them. Or they are adults who can and we shouldn't hide away from them when they need aid.

Iron Wolf · Apr 4, 2018

Prime Directive violation on a planet where no one grows to adulthood

Prime Directive violation by a child on a planet where everyone is born an adult

Oshha · Apr 4, 2018

That's what I dislike about the Prime Directive the most. Is it that the prewarp civs aren't the Federation's kids and we have the respect their right to make their own decision and not make them for them? Or are they too immature to make their own decision and therefore we make it for them by refusing them the right to chose?

pheonix89 · Apr 4, 2018

What I want to know is who the hell approved the holomasker when the design didn't have predictable power demands, and who the hell forgot to include radiation alarms and unexpected power draw alarms in the reactor design?

A whole bunch of people involved engineering-side should be up on murder charges!

065tdsa · Apr 4, 2018

Oshha said:
That's what I dislike about the Prime Directive the most. Is it that the prewarp civs aren't the Federation's kids and we have the respect their right to make their own decision and not make them for them? Or are they too immature to make their own decision and therefore we make it for them by refusing them the right to chose?

The first interpretation is the most common. It's also wrong. Because they don't have to be our kids for us to feel like we should help them. If the people in that planet are adults who can make their own decisions, then why can't we just send diplomats to talk to them like adults? Offer hem aid packages and what not. If they were adults then their leaders could be negotiated with, nation to nation.

Because they wouldn't understand of course, they'd go crazy, hold us up like gods and what not and this would be an un-surmountable obstacle that they'd never grow out of, is what the PD holds. But if that is true, if they are really so incapable, then why are we trusting them to make their own choices again?

Iron Wolf · Apr 4, 2018

pheonix89 said:
What I want to know is who the hell approved the holomasker when the design didn't have predictable power demands, and who the hell forgot to include radiation alarms and unexpected power draw alarms in the reactor design?

A whole bunch of people involved engineering-side should be up on murder charges!

That's the Gaeni, babey!

Hazard · Apr 4, 2018

Simon_Jester said:
"There's always been a limit to my patience with that excuse. Especially once we're already involved. If you ask me, a man can only make so many excuses to walk away from so many drowning children before it would have been better if he were the one dropped in the lake."

Oh certainly, had that call been made there would've been ample evidence for a charge of mass murder, which should've been made and judged accordingly. I'm just saying it would've fulfilled the strict interpretation of the Prime Directive.

Vebyast said:
You know what it's called when you stand and watch as a child steps into the street and gets run over?

Given we're talking here about a technologically advanced society facing a less technologically advanced society that's a very patronising way to put it.

Enerael said:
Abuse? Why would it be called that, if it is not your child?

Enerael said:
Sure, but how do you abuse something you are not responsible of by not helping them? You can harm them by doing so, yes, but calling it abuse?

Abuse, assault and battery, reckless endangerment, the specific legalese isn't as important as what's attempted to be communicated; other people are fragile and if you are using something you have power over in a manner that puts another at risk of harm either by accident or deliberately you bear at least part of the responsibility to prevent harm.

charysa · Apr 4, 2018

AKuz said:
Captain's Log, Stardate 28076.6, USS Whale, Captain Toressa Lalen
(Renaissance, Rethelia)

We have detected a powerful storm forming in the atmosphere due to the particles given off by the malfunctioning equipment. The atmosphere is being agitated in such a manner as to cause a massive thunderstorm to grow directly above the site, hopefully the threat of flash flooding in the area will cause the locals to leave the area. And we may even be able to hasten that process with certain "signs".

At the very least the storm will cover up our people as we disable the base, recover the scientist's bodies and data, and then vapourize whatever is left.

So, from what I can tell, Captain Lalen didn't *cause* the big storm, but she tried to warn people to leave the area, which had the opposite result and instead attracted people into the area which caused more deaths. If anything, that would be my major criticism for his actions, that she didn't think it through when he arranged for those "signs" and ended up causing more deaths by them.

Oshha · Apr 4, 2018

Does the Prime Directive include getting rid of non-Federation warp stuff in a prewarp civ?

Vebyast · Apr 4, 2018

charysa said:
So, from what I can tell, Captain Lalen didn't *cause* the big storm, but he tried to warn people to leave the area, which had the opposite result and instead attracted people into the area which caused more deaths. If anything, that would be my major criticism for his actions, that he didn't think it through when he arranged for those "signs" and ended up causing more deaths by them.

And this is why we have good samaritan laws IRL.

I will say that I'd much rather treat this as an engineering problem than an ethics problem. There's such a thing as gross incompetence, but at least we aren't all subtly - or less subtly - accusing the other side of being reprehensible monsters.

065tdsa · Apr 4, 2018

Hazard said:
Given we're talking here about a technologically advanced society facing a less technologically advanced society that's a very patronising way to put it.

Let's put it as 'what if someone is about to get run over and they are looking the wrong way?' Means exactly the same thing, sounds less patronizing. The answer is still clear and it's not 'hide in a bush and record everything for science'.

Briefvoice · Apr 4, 2018

Lalen's main fuck-up here was trying to use the storm to cover the Federation's tracks. Let the threat of flooding scare people away, then just make everything disappear under the floodwater. You realize the Whale was probably perfectly capable of disrupting the storm if they caught it early enough? But that would have left them in the same situation as before.

But she got cute trying to use the storm and the natives failed to run as anticipated, so then the Whale had to interfere much more directly to rescue them.

Tolack · Apr 4, 2018

... We need more ships. Both so that Mirandas don't end up as solo responders and that every cruiser or frigate has a frigate support their response. Can we pump out like 12 Centaur-Bs, 8 Comets, and 4 Keplers at minimum in the next couple of years?

Oshha · Apr 4, 2018

Could a QM answer a question?

Do you come up with the fluff of an event before or after rolling to see if it failed or succeeded? Apologies if this has already been asked and answered.

Simon_Jester · Apr 4, 2018

Tolack said:
... We need more ships. Both so that Mirandas don't end up as solo responders and that every cruiser or frigate has a frigate support their response. Can we pump out like 12 Centaur-Bs, 8 Comets, and 4 Keplers at minimum in the next couple of years?

It is projected that by 2330 we'll have like 140 frigates.

Oshha said:
That sums up my stance on the matter. What if it wasn't a prewarp civ, but Cardie or Romulan colony? Would we still have some people suggesting that we should have arguing that Toressa Lalen should have left them to die?

If you want a real bombshell, what if it had been, say, an ancient Vulcan colony that had regressed technologically into the Bronze Age or something? How would we behave towards them? Would we let a bunch of them die rather than interfere in their (re)development?

This really shouldn't be a purely academic question; with how long species like the Orions, Gorn, and Yrillians have been in space, we almost have to have a possibility of encountering 'neobarbarian' offshoots of their cultures.

Iron Wolf said:
Prime Directive violation on a planet where no one grows to adulthood

Leslie:

"Been there, done that."

Oshha · Apr 4, 2018

Simon_Jester said:
If you want a real bombshell, what if it had been, say, an ancient Vulcan colony that had regressed technologically into the Bronze Age or something? How would we behave towards them? Would we let a bunch of them die rather than interfere in their (re)development?

This really shouldn't be a purely academic question; with how long species like the Orions, Gorn, and Yrillians have been in space, we almost have to have a possibility of encountering 'neobarbarian' offshoots of their cultures.

That is a really good question. What are the odds of it coming up in-quest?

charysa · Apr 4, 2018

Vebyast said:
And this is why we have good samaritan laws IRL.

I don't know that I'll consider Starfleet to fall under the equivalent of Good Samaritan laws simply because those primarily apply to civilians rendering aid and usually don't apply to professional emergency reponders or medical professionals. Starfleet however is our professional emergency responder. So their response to this incident is something that fell under their responsibility in the first place, moreso as the initial PD violation and storm were caused by Federation equipment.

In other words, it was Lalen's job to handle the PD violation that already happened and make things better, but her handling made things worse instead, and that's what is going to cast a black mark on her record.

Oshha said:
That is a really good question. What are the odds of it coming up in-quest?

Pretty sure lost/regressed human colonies have come up before in TNG. IIRC Starfleet offered to help if it was wanted, and took a hike if they weren't.

Forgothrax · Apr 4, 2018

Tolack said:
... We need more ships. Both so that Mirandas don't end up as solo responders and that every cruiser or frigate has a frigate support their response. Can we pump out like 12 Centaur-Bs, 8 Comets, and 4 Keplers at minimum in the next couple of years?

We have 7 Keplers, 2 Rennies, and a CB minimum coming off the lines, so... We're good.

Katsuragi · Apr 4, 2018

I wonder if the event table goes something like:
X-x: prime directive potential violation: successfully resolved
X-x: Prime directive violation failed. Captain cleared.
X-x: Prime direction violation, captain canned.

Briefvoice · Apr 4, 2018

There seems to be some gender confusion about Lalen, so I checked the character database.

We actually have two captain Lalens.

Xansad Lalen, Orion male Captain, USS Exeter

Toressa Lalen Orion female, Captain, USS Whale

We are discussing Toressa Lalen.

I suppose last names repeat so they're not necessarily particularly related.

Iron Wolf · Apr 4, 2018

Briefvoice said:
I suppose last names repeat so they're not necessarily particularly related.

They are, in fact, twins.

Simon_Jester · Apr 4, 2018

charysa said:
Pretty sure lost/regressed human colonies have come up before in TNG. IIRC Starfleet offered to help if it was wanted, and took a hike if they weren't.

And see, the difficult question that raises is, how are a bunch of Vulcans (who I picked for a reason) that lost their starfaring technology two thousand years ago and have been in the Iron Age ever since morally different from a bunch of humanoids (or Vulcanoids) native to the planet who, likewise, have been in the Iron Age for all that time? Is it right to 'interfere' in the lost Vulcan colony's affairs by interacting with them in a way that under the Prime Directive we wouldn't be able to interact with an indigenous planetary culture?

For me, it's kiiind of hard to construct a justification for that that doesn't come across as being, on some level, racist. "Members of our own species deserve help and the benefits of their starfaring heritage, even if they themselves are totally isolated from the starfaring tradition that's helping them, but members of a Younger Race that lacks the tradition deserve to be left alone to fend for themselves."

But at the same time, it seems frightfully unfair to say "if your colony loses its technology, it loses the right to participate in our civilization even to beg for help, even to expect us to come to your aid when you are clearly in peril."

Iron Wolf · Apr 4, 2018

I know there's probably some episodes that contradict it, but my personal interpretation would be if they're out of contact long enough to forget they are from space and have developed a whole new culture etc, then you probably can't interfere. PD is about preserving prewarp societies, not extending blanket protections to anyone with DNA that has experienced warp travel.

if it's something like a stranded colony that knows its a colony, then probably allowed to beam down, because that's more like survivors.

To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)

We Shall Wake to Sanity

Wants to be Seven Of Nine

Nascent Transhuman

Not Going Gently

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