[X] Shey ch'Tharvasse (on sabbatical, working with Rigellians) - bonus to Diplomatic resources

Would have voted for Shey if Sulu wasn't an option last time. I do think limiting the choice to nonhumans is the opposite of Federation ideals. Like race is the sort of thing that shouldn't matter at all to anyone in the Federation if they're trying to live up to the ideals they're so vocal about.
 
I didn't vote for ch'Tharvasse, but I don't have a huge objection to him either.

That said, I think of Shey ch'Tharvasse not so much as "peacemaker" as someone who knows diplomacy as a weapon. Maybe that's what you need as it comes time to try and stick a shiv in the Harmony of Horizon. Diplomatically.

(sigh) But I will miss Sulu's Intelligence Interrupt. You know why his tenure was so short on really big crises? Because he Intelligence Interrupted them into small crises!
 
Would have voted for Shey if Sulu wasn't an option last time. I do think limiting the choice to nonhumans is the opposite of Federation ideals. Like race is the sort of thing that shouldn't matter at all to anyone in the Federation if they're trying to live up to the ideals they're so vocal about.

Not if they're acting to counter a system they know is biased towards humans. And what we've seen suggests that Starfleet is biased. A nonhuman can rise to the top if they're skilled, talented, and well-connected, but the top brass is heavily comprised of humans, and I wouldn't be surprised if we had a few human admirals that are just good, or even mediocre, by comparison due to weight of numbers making humans the easy choice.

Given how the Pacifists work, I would not be at all surprised to learn that President Okaar has psychosocial and statistical studies that verify Starfleet's human-centricism. I'm sure that most of Starfleet's top brass thinks they're totally species-blind and not biased in favor of their own species at all, but dealing with bias like this is very difficult to do.
 
[X] Shey ch'Tharvasse (on sabbatical, working with Rigellians) - bonus to Diplomatic resources
Admiral Visit-the-Unbeliever-With-Explanatory-Pamphlets!
 
Not if they're acting to counter a system they know is biased towards humans. And what we've seen suggests that Starfleet is biased. A nonhuman can rise to the top if they're skilled, talented, and well-connected, but the top brass is heavily comprised of humans, and I wouldn't be surprised if we had a few human admirals that are just good, or even mediocre, by comparison due to weight of numbers making humans the easy choice.

Given how the Pacifists work, I would not be at all surprised to learn that President Okaar has psychosocial and statistical studies that verify Starfleet's human-centricism. I'm sure that most of Starfleet's top brass thinks they're totally species-blind and not biased in favor of their own species at all, but dealing with bias like this is very difficult to do.

You're very "in the fiction" on this. But if there are more human characters because we like reading and writing human characters then there is no in-universe fix, and calling attention to it is worse than politely ignoring it. There is no bias in Starfleet because Starfleet doesn't exist. The bias is in human readers and writers who understandably tend to view other humans as the default, "normal" from which we explore aliens.

As I said in the chat, I care way more that our human characters represent a broad swathe of ethnic identities, genders, and sexualities. That's where it's actually important to have representation. I don't care if blue antenna alien or pointy ears alien has representation.
 
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I matters to the President and the wider image that there has been a Human streak.

Welcome to politics.
 
As I said in the chat, I care way more that our human characters represent a broad swathe of ethnic identities, genders, and sexualities. That's where it's actually important to have representation. I don't care if blue antenna alien or pointy ears alien has representation.
I'd like to think we've had a reasonable diversity of representation on that front.
 
Not if they're acting to counter a system they know is biased towards humans. And what we've seen suggests that Starfleet is biased. A nonhuman can rise to the top if they're skilled, talented, and well-connected, but the top brass is heavily comprised of humans, and I wouldn't be surprised if we had a few human admirals that are just good, or even mediocre, by comparison due to weight of numbers making humans the easy choice.

Given how the Pacifists work, I would not be at all surprised to learn that President Okaar has psychosocial and statistical studies that verify Starfleet's human-centricism. I'm sure that most of Starfleet's top brass thinks they're totally species-blind and not biased in favor of their own species at all, but dealing with bias like this is very difficult to do.
Except there's really no evidence that any of that is why Starfleet is human centric based on what's been presented in the quest. You could just as easily say that humans went all in with Starfleet so they're over represented here compared to other civilian industries. Overtime nonhumans are going to get promoted as the years go on in the quest but trying to force it here is irritating.
 
You're very "in the fiction" on this. But if there are more human characters because we like reading and writing human characters then there is no in-universe fix, and calling attention to it is worse than politely ignoring it. There is no bias in Starfleet because Starfleet doesn't exist. The bias is in human readers and writers who understandably tend to view other humans as the default, "normal" from which we explore aliens.

As I said in the chat, I care way more that our human characters represent a broad swathe of ethnic identities, genders, and sexualities. That's where it's actually important to have representation. I don't care if blue antenna alien or pointy ears alien has representation.
It is very important IC that they have representation. To put things in perspective, saying you don't care that pointy ears alien and whatnot not having representation is like saying you don't care that Asians or Africans or whatnot don't have representation, in equivelence.
 
It is very important IC that they have representation. To put things in perspective, saying you don't care that pointy ears alien and whatnot not having representation is like saying you don't care that Asians or Africans or whatnot don't have representation, in equivelence.

It's only important IC if it bothers you OOC. Pointy ears alien doesn't exist. Only your empathy for them exists. You could just not worry about it in the same way you don't worry about how warp drives work.

EDIT: I mean, I'm not particularly cheesed about this vote. It's an interesting restriction on our choices, and good constraints make for good gameplay. I'm just not caring that much outside of that.
 
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You're very "in the fiction" on this.

If you're complaining that the Watsonian framing of the concerns, that's...not really a valid complaint. Like...this is a story. If you are engaged with a story, you make a good-faith effort to believe in it; that this is a world, that it actually works. From that perspective, this is a valid complaint. If you're not making that effort, then...you're only attracted to it for the mathhammer I guess?

I mean even if we're really Doylist about it, and say it's mostly humans because it's written by humans, that doesn't make the argument invalid. These would remain concerns that characters would actually espouse even if we acknowledge them as being characters.
 
I think people are missing Briefvoice's point. People don't really care much about alien representation out of character because they are not real. Having gay/black/trans/whatever characters matters because they represent real people.

So people are going to continue making far more human characters then alien characters because it's simply easier to identify with and get into the mind of a fellow human compared to an alien. Especially considering a lot of our alien races have, to our perspective, really strange names. This means Starfleet will, correspondingly, always be primarily human.

Having this OOC reality cause problems IC is annoying because it's not an IC problem (because the cause stems from OOC reasons) and it's not something we can realistically solve. It would be like TNG trying to talk about how there are too many humans in Starfleet when the reason is down to IRL costume budgets not in universe discrimination.
 
[X] Shey ch'Tharvasse (on sabbatical, working with Rigellians) - bonus to Diplomatic resources

The points about him perhaps being a good counter to Horizon are probably what's tipping it, that and his rather large margin.
 
Admiral Visit-the-Unbeliever-With-Explanatory-Pamphlets!

Sadly, we have no Honiani options.
I would love to have one as an Admiral some day.

It's only important IC if it bothers you OOC. Pointy ears alien doesn't exist. Only your empathy for them exists. You could just not worry about it in the same way you don't worry about how warp drives work.

EDIT: I mean, I'm not particularly cheesed about this vote. It's an interesting restriction on our choices, and good constraints make for good gameplay. I'm just not caring that much outside of that.

Nah, if humans are subconsciously somewhat xenophobic within a race, then it follows they'd be more so with other races, even if they sincerely believe they are not.

It does not apply too much to Explorer Captains or Admirals since they are the very very very best humanity has to offer, specifically in "how to xenophilia" part - hell, xenophilia is probably a job requirement for EC and maybe Starfleet in general - but for rest of the humanity and for at least some parts of Starfleet? I think it does.
Systemic discrimination does not have to have some guilty parties to exist.

I think people are missing Briefvoice's point. People don't really care much about alien representation out of character because they are not real. Having gay/black/trans/whatever characters matters because they represent real people.

So people are going to continue making far more human characters then alien characters because it's simply easier to identify with and get into the mind of a fellow human compared to an alien. Especially considering a lot of our alien races have, to our perspective, really strange names. This means Starfleet will, correspondingly, always be primarily human.

Having this OOC reality cause problems IC is annoying because it's not an IC problem (because the cause stems from OOC reasons) and it's not something we can realistically solve. It would be like TNG trying to talk about how there are too many humans in Starfleet when the reason is down to IRL costume budgets not in universe discrimination.

We do. I was worried about too much human Admirals approximately since we chose Sousa.
And Star Trek aliens are way too human for bolded to be a thing.
 
Hmm?

Because she wants a non-Human? At a minimum, the last 5 Starfleet Commanders have Human. A bit of a change is probably overdue.
And the reign of Chen Khan is even longer overdue.
Though Eaton or Uhura would have been nice too.
Humans just stick in mind easier, with very few exeptions like Nash.

[X] Shey ch'Tharvasse (on sabbatical, working with Rigellians) - bonus to Diplomatic resources
 
[X] Shey ch'Tharvasse (on sabbatical, working with Rigellians) - bonus to Diplomatic resources

Would have voted for Shey if Sulu wasn't an option last time. I do think limiting the choice to nonhumans is the opposite of Federation ideals. Like race is the sort of thing that shouldn't matter at all to anyone in the Federation if they're trying to live up to the ideals they're so vocal about.
The big problem is that humans are strongly overrepresented in the "waifu war" side of the game. Especially with Chen (an OC favorite) and Uhura (a favorite original character) as potential candidates for The Chair. And by the time both of them are out of the picture, it'll be someone else in the picture, and someone else...

Sure, we might occasionally make exceptions for favored nonhuman characters like T'Lorel or Nash as head of Starfleet, but it'd be relatively rare. Giving the nonhuman characters a chance to earn some exposure has its appeals.

Not if they're acting to counter a system they know is biased towards humans. And what we've seen suggests that Starfleet is biased. A nonhuman can rise to the top if they're skilled, talented, and well-connected, but the top brass is heavily comprised of humans, and I wouldn't be surprised if we had a few human admirals that are just good, or even mediocre, by comparison due to weight of numbers making humans the easy choice.
Notice all those mediocre human flag officers from TOS, and for that matter TNG/DS9 had some, didn't they?

I actually have a theory as to how this could have happened in a largely legitimate way, inspired by looking at what happened to the Delian League. Basically, the question is, what if the Explorer Corps, specifically, received disproportionate support from United Earth starting some time in the early to mid-23rd century?

While everyone else is viewing Starfleet as a joint military to keep the Klingons and Romulans at bay, with a side order of doing scientific surveys and whatnot, Earth throws its weight behind the Corps. It's a project a little too impractical to sit well with the rationalist but conservative Vulcans, and a little too dorky for the militarist Andorians (who, in our setting, are closest to Klingon space and most in need of defenses). The Tellarites are supportive, but even compared to that, Earth really goes all in. To the point of investing very heavily in the necessary shipbuilding and recruiting a much greater proportion of their best and brightest to crew the ships.

Thus, the Explorer Corps is sailing around in Connies that were disproportionately built with aid from, and crewed by recruits from, Earth. If you're a really brilliant and talented Tellarite, Andorian, or Vulcan, you might end up in Starfleet. If you're a similarly brilliant and talented Earthling, you are much more likely to end up in Starfleet... and in the Explorer Corps.

As the Corps establishes its reputation as an elite organization, Corps officers become high-status and are more likely to be promoted into the highest ranks of Starfleet. And the Corps is disproportionately human, because humans shoveled the most talent at it and did the most to promote it, out of all the other branches of Starfleet.

And as noted above, humans in the top one-one-millionth of human talent are more likely to go into Starfleet than Vulcan or Andorian or Tellarite talent. This creates a situation where humans in Starfleet are disproportionately likely to be amazingly talented- not because humans are superior to the other species, but because a larger fraction of their total elite talent pool goes into Starfleet in the first place.

Taken to extremes this could create the nearly all-human crews we see in TOS, but even a lesser form of the same process could leave you with a situation where, say, 50% of all the really great people in Starfleet worthy of promotion to the highest ranks are human. At least in a Federation consisting of only four species...
 
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[X] Shey ch'Tharvasse (on sabbatical, working with Rigellians) - bonus to Diplomatic resources

Seems like a good choice as our next placeholder while we train Mipek for the job.
 
The big problem is that humans are strongly overrepresented in the "waifu war" side of the game. Especially with Chen (an OC favorite) and Uhura (a favorite original character) as potential candidates for The Chair. And by the time both of them are out of the picture, it'll be someone else in the picture, and someone else...

Sure, we might occasionally make exceptions for favored nonhuman characters like T'Lorel or Nash as head of Starfleet, but it'd be relatively rare. Giving the nonhuman characters a chance to earn some exposure has its appeals.
They should earn that on their own merits though. Besides Chen and Uhura, there's like Harriman for popular human characters at the Vice Admiral level. We're also at the tail end of the ToS cast's careers so there aren't many canon characters to pop to take the spotlight. In the next decade, more popular nonhumans are going to be promoted up to vice admiral and it's going to be a long long time until we get to the canon TNG cast so this is a problem that was going to solve itself anyway.

This issue just feels contrived since it's an OOC issue being justified IC when IC it wouldn't be a problem anyway because the Federation and Starfleet wouldn't care about whether you're human, or Andorian, or whatever when deciding promotions if they lived up to their own ideals.
 
[X] Shey ch'Tharvasse (on sabbatical, working with Rigellians) - bonus to Diplomatic resources

We really need to bring our A-game to the coming diplomatic crises.
 
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