I think we should slow down Excelsior production in favor of expanding berths and small ships a little, since Excelsior pruduction is seriously starting to impact our ability to get other ships done in a timely manner
I just tried doing a small ship build where I cut back the number of Excelsiors, opened up some extra small berths, and built more cruisers. You know what happened? The crew requirements ate us alive.
Excelsiors take more crew, but they also take four years to build so that you only have to supply that crew every four years. Small ships, if we're building them as fast as possible, gulp down crew every 3 years or every 2 years. I couldn't actually build very many more ships because I couldn't crew them. Before I knew it, I was looking down the barrel of -20 Enlisted when a bunch of Cruisers all came online in the same year. It was a bad scene.
Your use of UP 3m t berth A for 1m t designs indicates to me that we want at least one more small berth. Given that buying berths seems to increase the cost of buying berths (at the same yard), and that we have a berth construction time decrease that ends in 2311[1], we should probably get them in bulk before then. Personally, I want to get at least four small berths at either the Andor or Tellar yard and two 2m t berths at UP. This justifies getting another Escort Design Team from which ever yard gets chosen for the small berths, and would give us a total of 19 berths. The Ambassador Project should enable us to get larger berths – and if we are lucky would give one for free – which would bring us up to an even 20.
I just tried doing a small ship build where I cut back the number of Excelsiors, opened up some extra small berths, and built more cruisers. You know what happened? The crew requirements ate us alive.
Excelsiors take more crew, but they also take four years to build so that you only have to supply that crew every four years. Small ships, if we're building them as fast as possible, gulp down crew every 3 years or every 2 years. I couldn't actually build very many more ships because I couldn't crew them. Before I knew it, I was looking down the barrel of -20 Enlisted when a bunch of Cruisers all came online in the same year. It was a bad scene.
Ah, so if we do do bunches of small ships, then we REALLY have to plan carefully and stagger all the builds so not too much crew per year is deducted at once, as well as possibly more academy expansions
There's a lot to be said for 1.5 or two million ton berths; it'd give us "room to grow" if we want to construct an escort or cruiser of over a million tons some time in the 2320s or '30s. Given that "medium cruisers" in that range have enjoyed repeated bouts of popularity, that seems likely.
Ah, so if we do do bunches of small ships, then we REALLY have to plan carefully and stagger all the builds so not too much crew per year is deducted at once, as well as possibly more academy expansions
And just more member worlds. If we get the Betazoids and the Caitians as full members, they'll collectively add 2O/2E/2T every year, which helps a lot. I'm happy diplomancing border affiliates this year, but 2308 let's get the Betazed and Ferasia into the Federation.
And just more member worlds. If we get the Betazoids and the Caitians as full members, they'll collectively add 2O/2E/2T every year, which helps a lot. I'm happy diplomancing border affiliates this year, but 2308 let's get the Betazed and Ferasia into the Federation.
Right now only UP gives the option to add 2mt cruiser berths.
Which since we're back to doing doing the Rennie is a nice option to have, but not something we'll be doing for a while since, while we can do a medium cruiser that's better than a Rennie easily, the rennie's size, cost, and crew reqs make it superior for us at this time. A few cruiser/general ship techs though and we can probably make cruisers that exceed Excelsiors in every way, at which point they're better(though the Rennie would still be useful as a low cost generalist ship better than any escort, while escorts would be our more combat focused ships we can pump out fast if we really need to)
And just more member worlds. If we get the Betazoids and the Caitians as full members, they'll collectively add 2O/2E/2T every year, which helps a lot. I'm happy diplomancing border affiliates this year, but 2308 let's get the Betazed and Ferasia into the Federation.
Right now only UP gives the option to add 2mt cruiser berths.
I wouldn't assume that everyone gives 1/1/1 like the Amarki did. They are a martial culture after all. Tech heavy races like the Gaians probably give more Techs than Officers and Enlisted, and peaceful planets like Betazoid and Risa may have fewer people willing to join period.
If we research offensive doctrine, as of now just for this year, not as a commitment to finish the unlocking tech as soon as possible and being ready to put the Games & Theory team back on Foreign Analysis if needed, which doctrine would people want to go for? Presumably not Wolf Pack?
There's always going to be something that presents our "bottleneck" in ship production, be it resources, berths, crew, or whatever. We'll just have to keep expanding all our infrastructure (mining, training, shipyards) in tandem, and hopefully things will work out.
Anyway, omake ahoy! I took it upon myself to explain why we can't just take old Constitutions out of mothballs, which logically really should be an option...
Captain Eddie Leslie, Chief, Quality Assurance Division, Shipyard Support Command
The Excelsiors might make them look like tugs. The Mirandas and Constellations, put together, might have been built in greater numbers. But for anyone in Starfleet with a soul, the Constitution-class had been the spirit of the 23rd century. Even ten years after the rush to retire them after Khitomer, which had finally, after fifty years, put all but one of the old girls into the boneyard.
When someone wanted a Starfleet ship to put on a badge or a patch? They thought of a Connie.
When a three year old kid in an Andorian ice bunker in the middle of East Deepfreeze drew a picture of themselves on a spaceship? A kid who'd never even seen a star, let alone a starship? They drew a pretty fair approximation of a Connie.
Hell, the entire category of 'explorer' owed its roots to all they'd been and done! He should know. He'd been there for the greatest of it all, right in the thick of that wild, wooly age, on the best damn ship in the best damn fleet the galaxy had ever known.
And if others hadn't been so privileged... even so. If there was a single man or woman in Starfleet who hadn't felt a little surge the first time they heard "let's take the Constitution-class out of mothballs, doll them up with the latest equipment, and take them out for one last dance..."
Well, they had green blood and pointy ears, that was for sure.
And it reached into Eddie Leslie's heart and tore that he was having to stand there and tell people "it isn't that easy."
__________________________________________
Captain Leslie waved at the half-meter square slab of metal, several centimeters thick, set in a test stand at the far end of the room. Captain Huth blasch Cheg from Design had finally agreed to come out to the test lab after Leslie took shameless advantage of the sign-off he'd used at the end of his last long, skeptical diatribe against Leslie's warnings.
The Tellarite had said "I'm from Tellar. Show me." Now Leslie was going to do exactly that... and blasch Cheg still thought it was all a joke, glaring up at him through safety goggles and a breath-mask to protect against particulates.
Leslie spoke. "This is a sample cut from an armored bulkhead on the Enterprise-A." From Enterprise. Not his Enterprise, he reminded himself. If he'd had to do the same to a piece of his Enterprise, it'd have felt even more like murder.
"Really? And exactly why did you bother bringing a phaser, then? If six Klingon torpedoes didn't break it, then that flashlight won't either." The little man flicked an ear dismissively at the old rifle.
"You'd think so, wouldn't you? Computer, engage SIF bracing. Set SIF bracing to five percent."
"Raising field," the computer spoke, in a crisp, calm, familiar woman's voice- part of that Federation-wide, massively popular operating system designed by another veteran of the Big E, one from before his time. There was a shimmer at the surface of the armor slab as the test rig backed it with a weak structural integrity field.
"So, with the structural integrity field..." Leslie clicked the rifle to 'lethal-two,' then squeezed the trigger. The phaser rifle let out a piercing whistle. Nothing happened. He flipped the safety and turned to the Tellarite. "Now, that's what you'd expect."
"No, really? Starship armor doesn't just dissolve in a puff of smoke when you hit it with hand weapons? Do tell. What do you want to show me next, that day is brighter than night? That water is wet?"
Leslie shook his head, sadly. "You'll see. Computer, disable SIF bracing." Leslie raised the phaser rifle a second time. "Make sure that mask fits properly." He paused for a moment, looking at the Tellarite to make sure he actually did check his filter mask and goggles. Only then did he release the safety, point the rifle on, and pull the trigger.
The tritanium slab glowed red for a moment- then the glow subsided as the plate dissolved into a cloud of billowing metallic dust!
The Tellarite's voice was cold. "I don't know what kind of trick you're trying..."
"No trick. Now will you listen to me explain to what I've been trying to tell you for the last month?"
"...Say your piece, I owe you that much."
Leslie nodded. "Okay. When the Connies went in for their refits back in the '70s, there'd been a lot of incidents during the five year missions of the ships nearly being torn apart, especially if they pushed Warp Eight." He flinched inwardly; he'd been through a few of those. "So there was a lot of pressure to improve the strength of the hull. Some genius in MatSci came up with a way to take existing tritanium and increase its tensile strength by about thirty percent with a force field treatment. The field soaks into the metal, and you get a stronger material, without having to actually replace the ship's main hull frames and armor belts."
"Huh. I thought when they said 'treated tritanium' they meant chemical treatment." The Tellarite scratched his chin through his beard, obviously thinking back to his own time aboard refit Constitutions. "They never went into details."
"Anyway, we're lucky the force field treated stuff didn't get into the Excelsiors- on them we just plain used bigger structural members and newer alloys. Because there's a problem. See... the field effect decays. Let the metal sit for a few years and it dissipates entirely. The bracing field has to draw a trickle of power from the SIF to be stable, or it just... drains away."
"Which leaves you with a slab of tritanium. Still shouldn't fall apart like that." Blasch Cheg stabbed a finger into his palm.
"That's what I thought. But there's a hysteresis effect. The metal pulls itself apart. Now, in the '70s nobody thought that was a problem. The ships were staying in service, construction rates were high. Even if the hulls went into the reserve fleet, you just run a cable to a fusion reactor and turn on the SIF for a few hours a month to re-anneal the metal, right? But when they mothballed the ships... some clown used a set of mothballing instructions that date back to the '50s. No mention of turning the power back on. Within five to ten standard years, with the power switched off, most of that treated tritanium was a big mass of microfractures and crystallization weak points. Trying to restore the strengthening field won't work anymore. And... you saw."
"..." the Tellarite was, for a wonder, silent. Then anger twisted his face. He roared, waving his fists in the air. "...Those fumbling, reckless, feckless sons of a DENEVIAN SLIME DEVIL! The ships might as well be made out of PLYWOOD! They're USELESS! We can't refit the ships like this! It's all hopeless!"
Leslie remembered that Tellarites had a way of saying things they hoped weren't so, waiting for someone to contradict them. He figured he owed the little guy a favor after this let-down... He'd had a couple of drunk nights after finding out himself.
"Not... hopeless."
"Eh? What can you do with a ship whose hull is a mass of loosely connected iron filings held together by an SIF?" Blasch Cheg waved his hand angrily at the metallic dust shimmering and settling in the air.
"Well. In theory, if you had a big enough field generator, operating on just the right wavelength, with stable enough performance, you COULD re-anneal the entire hull externally. But that's going to be a problem for our grandkids. If they ever need the old girls, they just might be able to fix them."
"TALK SENSE, YOU IDIOT! WHAT ABOUT NOW?" The Design officer had put a lot of effort into pushing the Constitution refit project, and Leslie could understand why he was overcome. Tellarites could get... cranky.
"Parts of the hull are in good shape- radiation from the warp coils seems to have permanently annealed most of the nacelle frames and armor, something our models hadn't quite counted on. A lot of the systems themselves are fine. Life support, power. You could lift the main computer out and put it in a new hull as-is; they're as good as the day they were made."
"Half of those we'd need to replace anyway!"
"I never said it'd be easy. What it comes down to is that the old gals are still a good design- we just can't reuse the hulls. Here's a sample- the "refit" plan for USS Potemkin."
The Tellarite accepted a PADD and started scanning the list of required operations... "So basically, we build a new hull, peel the part of the paint that says "Potemkin NCC-1657" off the old saucer, slap it on the new saucer, and call it a new ship. Oh. And we can keep the command chair, the mess hall tables, and the running lights..." Blasch Cheg added up the costs, mentally compared to new construction. "Damn it."
"There's some cost savings, compared to a completely new ship. We can salvage a lot of the fittings and exotic equipment. But there's no saving these old bones, not until someone builds a nuclear resonance induction generator two hundred meters across that can carry a tune properly." Leslie sighed."
"If I ever catch up with the idiots who did this to the Connies in a dark alley..."
"Oh, I know. Me, I'm not as young as I used to be, and when I stand wrong... Well, tell you the truth, I still feel that Vulcan death grip that knocked me out on Deneva- in all the nerves down my lower back. But I know a Klingon ore merchant- a Klingon, believe it or not, and do you know? I'm thinking of asking him if he knows any bold and rough customers willing to avenge the dishonors done to an old battlewagon. In some dark alley."
"You think those Klingons would like a little help?"
I wouldn't assume that everyone gives 1/1/1 like the Amarki did. They are a martial culture after all. Tech heavy races like the Gaians probably give more Techs than Officers and Enlisted, and peaceful planets like Betazoid and Risa may have fewer people willing to join period.
Yes, we already know that to be the case, we started with 3/4/3 despite having 4 members, probably 1/1/1 humans, 1/1/0.5 Andorians, 0.5/1/0.5 Tellarites 0.5/1/1 Vulcans or something like that. Maybe two points of enlisted from humans, and only one full point (and otherwise half) from each of the others.
Looking closer at your plan, two looks like my minimum, since that's the number of large berths you used as small berths. If we want more berths to loan out or anything else we'll need more than that.
There are a few reason I suggested 4. First, they are really cheap PP-wise. Next, now is the best time to get them, since I'm pretty sure we still have a time to build discount. Third, four better justifies the tech team for the yard in question, and we'll want that team. Lastly, one of the lines we had one the first of those yards opened up was about how they'll never be huge, but this plan would temporarily give them more berths than any other yard in the Federation. This amuses me. Together, these indicate that it's better to buy them in bulk. These wouldn't just be berths for the immediate builds, but instead enough to last us thru the next decade (assuming no wartime expansion).
The reason to put them all on the same yard are again that it better justifies a tech team from there, and that it saves the other yard – and it's cheap cost – for another bulk purchase if we know that a war is about to start. This assumes that berths get more expensive the more we get at a place, but it certainly looks like that's the case.
The two 2m t berths are because it certainly looks like we want to build larger cruisers, and I at least want an efficient place to put them.
If we research offensive doctrine, as of now just for this year, not as a commitment to finish the unlocking tech as soon as possible and being ready to put the Games & Theory team back on Foreign Analysis if needed, which doctrine would people want to go for? Presumably not Wolf Pack?
It appears that it gives the most bonuses for the sort of conflict we are currently fighting, and would be useful at holding an enemy away from our core until we get a doom fleet ready. The doom fleet shouldn't need doctrine bonuses, because doom-fleet.
Next Doctrine should be 'Forward Defence' we spent the PP to create border zones and more importantly the forward defence doctrine allows us to shift resources from home fleet garrisons to border zones.
It appears that it gives the most bonuses for the sort of conflict we are currently fighting, and would be useful at holding an enemy away from our core until we get a doom fleet ready. The doom fleet shouldn't need doctrine bonuses, because doom-fleet.
I see it the exact opposite way myself. Stack the bonuses on Doom-Fleet as high as possible, because we really cannot afford to lose a Doom-fleet fight.
If we research offensive doctrine, as of now just for this year, not as a commitment to finish the unlocking tech as soon as possible and being ready to put the Games & Theory team back on Foreign Analysis if needed, which doctrine would people want to go for? Presumably not Wolf Pack?
I'd rather have a Defensive Doctrine than an Offensive one. So I think the solution is:
Games & Theory - Foreign Analysis
Tiger Team - Fleet Design Doctrine
Admiral Lathriss - Defensive Doctrine (forward defense)
Yes it means not having the best team on FA, but now that G&T has crawled to a respectable level 2 that feels less painful. And and you will have noticed, Cardassian events give free boosts to Cardassian Analysis, meaning that it should go pretty quickly anyway.
Agree on Foreward Defense. That will go hand in hand with our diplomatic push into the border zone by helping us defend our new allies. This isn't the doctrine that will defeat the cardies, its the doctrine that will slow their advance until we can crush them with the doomfleet.
I see it the exact opposite way myself. Stack the bonuses on Doom-Fleet as high as possible, because we really cannot afford to lose a Doom-fleet fight.
Doomfleet won't be ready soon enough for us to invest all our resources in it. We need defensive measures in the meantime, especially ones that will help us protect our western affiliates and encourage them to participate in Operation Snakeskin Coats For Everyone when we launch it.
Agree on Foreward Defense. That will go hand in hand with our diplomatic push into the border zone by helping us defend our new allies. This isn't the doctrine that will defeat the cardies, its the doctrine that will slow their advance until we can crush them with the doomfleet.
Doomfleet won't be ready soon enough for us to invest all our resources in it. We need defensive measures in the meantime, especially ones that will help us protect our western affiliates and encourage them to participate in Operation Snakeskin Coats For Everyone when we launch it.
I'm not trying to argue for Decisive Battle right now. Just responding to the other person's suggestion that Wolf Pack is the best, which I was disagreeing with.
I fully support Forward Defense as the defensive doctrine.
I'm not trying to argue for Decisive Battle right now. Just responding to the other person's suggestion that Wolf Pack is the best, which I was disagreeing with.
I fully support Forward Defense as the defensive doctrine.
The Excelsiors might make them look like tugs. The Mirandas and Constellations, put together, might have been built in greater numbers. But for anyone in Starfleet with a soul, the Constitution-class had been the spirit of the 23rd century. Even ten years after the rush to retire them after Khitomer, which had finally, after fifty years, put all but one of the old girls into the boneyard.
When someone wanted a Starfleet ship to put on a badge or a patch? They thought of a Connie.
When a three year old kid in an Andorian ice bunker in the middle of East Deepfreeze drew a picture of themselves on a spaceship? A kid who'd never even seen a star, let alone a starship? They drew a pretty fair approximation of a Connie.
Hell, the entire category of 'explorer' owed its roots to all they'd been and done! He should know. He'd been there for the greatest of it all, right in the thick of that wild, wooly age, on the best damn ship in the best damn fleet the galaxy had ever known.
And if others hadn't been so privileged... even so. If there was a single man or woman in Starfleet who hadn't felt a little surge the first time they heard "let's take the Constitution-class out of mothballs, doll them up with the latest equipment, and take them out for one last dance..."
Well, they had green blood and pointy ears, that was for sure.
And it reached into Eddie Leslie's heart and tore that he was having to stand there and tell people "it isn't that easy."
When we do start on an offensive doctrine, Base Strike looks like the best way to minimize opposition ability to project force while minimizing civilian casualties.
We want to push back aggression, not smash fleets.
When we do start on an offensive doctrine, Base Strike looks like the best way to minimize opposition ability to project force while minimizing civilian casualties.
We want to push back aggression, not smash fleets.
I just tried doing a small ship build where I cut back the number of Excelsiors, opened up some extra small berths, and built more cruisers. You know what happened? The crew requirements ate us alive.
Excelsiors take more crew, but they also take four years to build so that you only have to supply that crew every four years. Small ships, if we're building them as fast as possible, gulp down crew every 3 years or every 2 years. I couldn't actually build very many more ships because I couldn't crew them. Before I knew it, I was looking down the barrel of -20 Enlisted when a bunch of Cruisers all came online in the same year. It was a bad scene.
If we neglected cruisers and instead just built Centaurs, wouldn't that actually lower crew costs? And it would still be cheaper in both BR and SR than the Excelsiors. Not that I'm advocating this - we do want those cruisers.
The reason to put them all on the same yard are again that it better justifies a tech team from there, and that it saves the other yard – and it's cheap cost – for another bulk purchase if we know that a war is about to start. This assumes that berths get more expensive the more we get at a place, but it certainly looks like that's the case.
Is the UP fleetyard construction the only evidence you have that we can get a research team if we built 4 berths together? I'm pretty sure UP fleetyards is a special case - it did cost us a shitload PP if you recall, and it explicitly bundled a research team.
Also, do you have a source for berths getting more expensive the more berths there are?
Wouldn't it make more sense to just say that if a team is researching an almost-finished field, the points "roll over" into logical areas in the next field somehow? I mean, it doesn't make sense that if there's only one month left of work on "turn of the century xenopsych," the tech team spends the next eleven months doing nothing instead of starting work on "early 24th century xenopsych."
That was my initial thought, but it gets complicated by the very nature of a branching and tiered tech tree.
If we choose 2300s xenopsychology, which early 24th century category is rolled over into? Do vote plans now have to do something like "2300s xenopsychology, rollover into early 24th century external diplomacy"?
How does the roll over work - if a couple techs just become fully researched and there's still leftover points, which techs in the 24th century category are chosen to apply these leftover points? Do the already fully researched techs still generate leftover points? if chosen randomly, could lead to complicated rolling to figure out which techs to apply leftover points to.
Do we even allow directly assigning to any early 24th century category before all of 2300s xenopsychology is fully researched?
edit: This isn't a completely new problem. It's also unclear how rollover would've worked for 49 / 50 Lone Ranger Doctrine. Single tech categories are just problematic.
Thinking about this research stuff again, I've realized that there actually are tech-level prereqs. "Xeno Architecture II"'s prereq is "Xeno Architecture I". In fact, it's obvious that for every tech, there's a single "primary" next tier tech.
So that does give an obvious avenue for overflow. If a tech is fully researched, any leftover points get allocated to the primary next tier tech. Like "Xeno Architecture I" -> "Xeno Architecture II"
But there's still an open question: What happens if a research category already has fully researched techs, and we assign a research team to it?
For example, what if we tried researching ToC Cruiser category, even though it's fully researched? Wouldn't that result in tier 2 research in all the early 24th century categories, just without the novel techs in those categories (like "Cruiser Size I")? I can't help but think that partially defeats the intent of splitting up research categories.
Even if research into fully researched categories isn't allowed, there's still the slightly less extreme example of a research category that is fully researched except a single tech. This is bound to happen with categories that have techs with very different costs, like "Cruiser Science Design II" (30) vs "Cruiser Size I" (150).
I think the only way this overflow scheme will work without too much abuse is to disallow research into completely researched categories AND either:
a) all the techs within a research category are balanced to be completed at around the same time (e.g. could have "Cruiser Science Design II" -> "Cruiser Science Design III" -> "Cruiser Science Design IV" (totals 180) and "Cruiser Size I" (150)); or
b) don't allow further tech branching after this particular research category. I don't like this solution that much, because it will lead to the problem of reaching a research team cap.
When we do start on an offensive doctrine, Base Strike looks like the best way to minimize opposition ability to project force while minimizing civilian casualties.
We want to push back aggression, not smash fleets.
When we do start on an offensive doctrine, Base Strike looks like the best way to minimize opposition ability to project force while minimizing civilian casualties.
We want to push back aggression, not smash fleets.
A strategy devoted to striking enemy systems doesn't seem likely to minimize civilian casualties to me. Starbases sure, but it implies that the whole goal is to gain control over your enemy's planets so you effectively hold them hostage and can destroy infrastructure as needed.
If we neglected cruisers and instead just built Centaurs, wouldn't that actually lower crew costs? And it would still be cheaper in both BR and SR than the Excelsiors. Not that I'm advocating this - we do want those cruisers.
