See the post I just made. I put it up mostly for discussion, but I believe there's some value in driving stat requirements from roles rather than from profiles. After all, the stat requirement for a role should be the same no matter what profile is filling it, right? Take a look and see if maybe you want to try incorporating some into your proposal.
To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)
- Thread starter OneirosTheWriter
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See the post I just made. I put it up mostly for discussion, but I believe there's some value in driving stat requirements from roles rather than from profiles. After all, the stat requirement for a role should be the same no matter what profile is filling it, right? Take a look and see if maybe you want to try incorporating some into your proposal.
I'm slowly working on my own idea, but here's the basis of it.
TBG Ship Scale/Role List Hawke edition
TBG Ship Scale/Role List Hawke edition
- Location
- Patriarchova
Some food for thought. Keep in mind that my GMing roles overlap only very, very minimally with the ship design and combat mechanics, and so my analysis here may or may not actually be worth anything.
The way I see it, there are ship roles, and there are ship scales, and there are phases of combat. The combat phases are what most necessitates having ships of multiple scales, because only frigates can participate in Scouting and Skirmish (though there may be some exceptions to this, as the goshawnar Warhawk cruiser can also skirmish), only cruisers can enter the battle as early as Vanguard, and the size of a capital ship allows it to outfight the others when it finally enters the battle during Heavy Metal.
So. Here's a table of all the roles that can be filled, and what scale of ship I think we should want to/are allowed to fill them at.
All of our ships need to be useful while we're not at war, so every class should be well rounded enough for garrison/event response duty.
Within the garrison fleet, we also want a science-focused ship in particular to respond to Science events and do sigint missions like the T'Mir's. Since we will also need a high S and high D frigate to be the scoutships in times of war, we should make this class be that frigate.
We need a well rounded capship to be our five year mission Explorer. Any such ships that do not go to the EC can serve as sector flagships for our garrison fleet. These ships will also be our heavy metal in battle. Ditto for cruisers, only without the 5YM role.
We may or may not want to have two types of cruiser in service at one. A purely garrison/support cruiser that is not sent into battle, and a (probably more expensive) heavy cruiser that is around as good at garrison duty but also fights well, which makes up the bulk of our vanguard/metal fleet in battles. Another possibility is to have a well rounded light cruiser that fights well and can participate in Skirmish like the goshawnar warhawk, but that may require doctrine techs so probably not.
So. These roles are the ones I consider important, and some reasonable requirements:
SCIENCE SHIP: a high S vessel that can respond to science events and perform SIGINT operations. Requires: S6+
LIGHT GARRISON SHIP: a well rounded ship that can perform policing, diplomatic, and low level scientific missions in and near Federation space. Requires: D, S, and P of 3+
HEAVY GARRISON SHIP: a well rounded ship that can perform more difficult, higher stakes policing, diplomatic, and scientific missions in and near Federation space. Requires: cruiser or capship scale, all stats 3+, S, D, and P 5+
EXPLORER: a well rounded capital ship with very high capabilities to be operated by the Explorer Corps. Requires: capship scale, all stats 5+.
SCOUTSHIP: a high S, high D frigate to serve during the Scouting phase, and withdraw before the Heavy Metal phase. Requires: frigate scale, S6+, D4+
SKIRMISHER: a frigate with good combat and D stats to fight during the Skirmish phase. It may, potentially, withdraw before the Heavy Metal phase. Requires: frigate scale, C3+, L3+, D3+
VANGUARD: a frigate or cruiser with good combat stats to fight during the Vanguard and Heavy Metal phases. Requires: frigate or cruiser scale, C5+, L4+, H4+
BATTLESHIP: a capital ship to dominate the battle during Heavy Metal phase. Requires: capital ship scale, C7+, L5+, H4+.
EDIT: its been pointed out that, for the sake of any battles we have during the next few years, I should add another role that makes use of the Miranda-A.
DESTROYER: a frigate that lacks the D and S scores needed to participate in Scouting or Skirmish, but can join during the Vanguard or Heavy Metal phases to add a bit of extra firepower. This is a non-essential role that only exists as long as we have low S and D frigates that we need to keep out of the Skirmish phase. Requirements: none.
To fill these roles, we're looking at:
Science Ship: Kepler
Light Garrison: Kepler, Centaur-A, Constellation-A, Conniebee, Renaissance, possibly Miranda-B
Heavy Garrison: Excelsior-A, possibly Ambassador when and if we have enough of them
Explorer: Ambassador
Scoutship: Kepler
Skirmisher: Centaur-A, possibly Miranda-B
Vanguard: Renaissance
Battleship: Excelsior-A, possibly Ambassador
Destroyer: Miranda-A
The way I see it, there are ship roles, and there are ship scales, and there are phases of combat. The combat phases are what most necessitates having ships of multiple scales, because only frigates can participate in Scouting and Skirmish (though there may be some exceptions to this, as the goshawnar Warhawk cruiser can also skirmish), only cruisers can enter the battle as early as Vanguard, and the size of a capital ship allows it to outfight the others when it finally enters the battle during Heavy Metal.
So. Here's a table of all the roles that can be filled, and what scale of ship I think we should want to/are allowed to fill them at.
| Frigate | Cruiser | Capital | |
| Garrison | Yes | Yes | Yes |
| Science/SIGINT | Yes | ||
| Explorer Corps | Yes | ||
| Scout | Yes | ||
| Skirmish | Yes | Maybe | |
| Vanguard | Yes | Yes | |
| Metal | Maybe | Yes | Yes |
Within the garrison fleet, we also want a science-focused ship in particular to respond to Science events and do sigint missions like the T'Mir's. Since we will also need a high S and high D frigate to be the scoutships in times of war, we should make this class be that frigate.
We need a well rounded capship to be our five year mission Explorer. Any such ships that do not go to the EC can serve as sector flagships for our garrison fleet. These ships will also be our heavy metal in battle. Ditto for cruisers, only without the 5YM role.
We may or may not want to have two types of cruiser in service at one. A purely garrison/support cruiser that is not sent into battle, and a (probably more expensive) heavy cruiser that is around as good at garrison duty but also fights well, which makes up the bulk of our vanguard/metal fleet in battles. Another possibility is to have a well rounded light cruiser that fights well and can participate in Skirmish like the goshawnar warhawk, but that may require doctrine techs so probably not.
So. These roles are the ones I consider important, and some reasonable requirements:
SCIENCE SHIP: a high S vessel that can respond to science events and perform SIGINT operations. Requires: S6+
LIGHT GARRISON SHIP: a well rounded ship that can perform policing, diplomatic, and low level scientific missions in and near Federation space. Requires: D, S, and P of 3+
HEAVY GARRISON SHIP: a well rounded ship that can perform more difficult, higher stakes policing, diplomatic, and scientific missions in and near Federation space. Requires: cruiser or capship scale, all stats 3+, S, D, and P 5+
EXPLORER: a well rounded capital ship with very high capabilities to be operated by the Explorer Corps. Requires: capship scale, all stats 5+.
SCOUTSHIP: a high S, high D frigate to serve during the Scouting phase, and withdraw before the Heavy Metal phase. Requires: frigate scale, S6+, D4+
SKIRMISHER: a frigate with good combat and D stats to fight during the Skirmish phase. It may, potentially, withdraw before the Heavy Metal phase. Requires: frigate scale, C3+, L3+, D3+
VANGUARD: a frigate or cruiser with good combat stats to fight during the Vanguard and Heavy Metal phases. Requires: frigate or cruiser scale, C5+, L4+, H4+
BATTLESHIP: a capital ship to dominate the battle during Heavy Metal phase. Requires: capital ship scale, C7+, L5+, H4+.
EDIT: its been pointed out that, for the sake of any battles we have during the next few years, I should add another role that makes use of the Miranda-A.
DESTROYER: a frigate that lacks the D and S scores needed to participate in Scouting or Skirmish, but can join during the Vanguard or Heavy Metal phases to add a bit of extra firepower. This is a non-essential role that only exists as long as we have low S and D frigates that we need to keep out of the Skirmish phase. Requirements: none.
To fill these roles, we're looking at:
Science Ship: Kepler
Light Garrison: Kepler, Centaur-A, Constellation-A, Conniebee, Renaissance, possibly Miranda-B
Heavy Garrison: Excelsior-A, possibly Ambassador when and if we have enough of them
Explorer: Ambassador
Scoutship: Kepler
Skirmisher: Centaur-A, possibly Miranda-B
Vanguard: Renaissance
Battleship: Excelsior-A, possibly Ambassador
Destroyer: Miranda-A
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[X][ROLES] Plan Leila Hann
That is actually what I want.
That is actually what I want.
KleverKil'Vanya
Ortillery Operator
[X][ROLES] Plan Leila Hann
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
The other significant difference is that ships on the frontier are more likely to end up in combat against peer-competitor warships. A ship doing event response in the CBZ is at risk of hostile encounters with a Jaldun or other similarly nasty ship; a ship doing event response in Tellar Sector probably isn't. Thus, "support cruisers" should not be used for frontier duties if there's a risk of them being opportunistically poached by enemy warships.
Yes- or a role that ships of this category can almost certainly fill even without design changes, the way our explorers can do the job of being battleships but are not, by nature, the kind of ship we'd design if we started out to build a battleship.
I think the point is that the Constellations and (soon or now) the ConnieBees are "support cruisers" not because that's a clearly distinct category of ship from "old general cruiser," but because they are past generations of general cruiser that are no longer capable of adequate performance in that mission profile.
I think it might actually be best to vote on this separately, because "what should the next-gen combat frigate look like" is an area a lot of people will have their own opinions on. I wish there were a good way to accomplish that- or is there?
Most ships we might bring alongside our own fleet fit into one or more of the roles SWB described. This actually provides a quite good framework for employing 'exotic' member world ships, because it tells us "okay, Apiata Stingers aren't like any of our ships, BUT they can still fill the [snip list of roles] roles pretty well, so that is what we'll be calling on the Apiata to do in case of war."
@Briefvoice, how do you plan to handle the fact that for example a General Frigate is not as good at the scouting battle phase as a dedicated science ship, but can still do it reasonably well? Because under your system, without secondary roles a commander without a science ship would either have to follow regulation and accept that he simply doesn't have a fleet scout, or ignore regulation and 'mis'use his general frigates for it. Rather an obvious choice, yes, but when we're rewriting the rules anyway, may as well do it in the way that makes the most sense.
Alternatively, a simpler fix would be to add fleet scout to the General Frigate profile, but then that leaves the issue that our doctrine doesn't actually distinguish in which of GF and SF should be used prefentially, and if a commander asks for a Science Frigate as dedicated fleet scout gives justification for him getting the answer 'you already have plenty fleet scouts in your general frigates, don't be greedy'. Which yes again, rather stupid example, regulations are meant to be broken, but also again when we're rewriting them already anyway, may as well do it properly so that breaking them is as unnecessary as possible.
@SWB solves this by quite simply saying 'GFs are useable as Fleet Scouts, but SFs are better, so preferentially the latter should be used if possible.
Separate issue (@SynchronizedWritersBlock, @Leila Hann, this goes for you too), a role that might make sense to add: Fleet Flag. IIrc, for example during the Syndicate, it came up that only cruisers or larger have big enough command facilities to lead a squadron or fleet. Add it to all cruisers and explorers please.
Alternatively, a simpler fix would be to add fleet scout to the General Frigate profile, but then that leaves the issue that our doctrine doesn't actually distinguish in which of GF and SF should be used prefentially, and if a commander asks for a Science Frigate as dedicated fleet scout gives justification for him getting the answer 'you already have plenty fleet scouts in your general frigates, don't be greedy'. Which yes again, rather stupid example, regulations are meant to be broken, but also again when we're rewriting them already anyway, may as well do it properly so that breaking them is as unnecessary as possible.
@SWB solves this by quite simply saying 'GFs are useable as Fleet Scouts, but SFs are better, so preferentially the latter should be used if possible.
Separate issue (@SynchronizedWritersBlock, @Leila Hann, this goes for you too), a role that might make sense to add: Fleet Flag. IIrc, for example during the Syndicate, it came up that only cruisers or larger have big enough command facilities to lead a squadron or fleet. Add it to all cruisers and explorers please.
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- Location
- Patriarchova
I think that falls under my Heavy Garrison role. A cruiser or capship that can perform high stakes garrison and policing duties.
If you say so. Might still make sense to alter Heavy Garrison's description to include, simply to make it more explicit.
While we're at it, do you have no cost maximums anywhere in your plan on purpose or on accident?
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It's not a judgement thing being made there. It's literally they do not have the tech base to maintain the reactor and it will kill them. They are like, objectively Just Not Ready.
A dissection is often done post-mortem, you know. it's deliberately left to imagination how much of a role the Hexolar had in his death.
- Location
- Patriarchova
Purpose. Our income and expenses can change at very short notice, so I'd rather leave those flexible.
- Location
- Patriarchova
I don't see why not.
However, I'm not sure why we'd bother. If we have a frigate that's tough enough to keep fighting throughout the Heavy Metal phase, then its in our interest to have it join the battle as early as possible and smash some enemy frigates during Skirmish/Vanguard.
Or communications, to coordinate the fleet during battle. It makes sense too, given that we want Explorers to have high presence and to be the flagships of our fleets. Explorers also have the conference rooms to support meetings of fleet captains which isn't quite communications, but is vital for fleet coordination.
As such, a ship that emphasised high presence could be a command ship, as well as a diplomatic courier.
I am not sure how one might reasonably model your point (1a), but these two points sound like useful changes.
It would be nice to be able to designate "ship teams" (say, a cruiser with some escorts, as a simple example, another example might be an all-frigate wolf-pack that specialized in hit-and-run attacks) and also to be able to tell ships to participate heavily in a given part of a battle, but to hang back in other parts that the ship isn't specialized for. That would especially be useful for faster ships that could evade the enemy as/when they needed to (so we could tell fast mine-sweeping ships to stay on the fringes of a battle when the other combat-specialized frigates were skirmishing heavily).
fasquardon
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Its more for the Miranda-A in that its main job is to absorb hits to extend the combat life time of larger more powerfull vessels and it really isn't a good skirmisher.
I suppose it could be argued that if we don't have any frigates that can survive fighting from skirmish to the end of heavy metal, but do have frigates that can last for less than that such as survive from start of heavy metal to it's end, doing so would let us cycle damaged and shield-depleted frigates for fresh ones.
Chaos Blade
Procrastinating Writer
- Location
- Buenos Aires, Argentina
Yeah, this is true and I acknowledge it as true as well, but I see you dropped my other comments. neat... The reactor had to be removed, yes. but I am tired of the argument of being ready for a technology, that one is a nonsensical trope that needs to die
yeah, thought it said vivisection... my mistake there
- Location
- Infraspace
This sounds really familiar. Didn't Julian Bashir do something similar?
To both @SynchronizedWritersBlock and @Briefvoice, I am wondering why you are retaining the 60SR limit on a Combat Frigate, rather than taking the opportunity to raise it, given that it seems to be difficult to keep to it. We're not going to take a Militarisation point for it given the sweeping review, are we?
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Doomed Wombat
Let's go Darling!
- Location
- Dancing on wires!
[X][ROLES] Plan Leila Hann
Exactly so the Miranda was a cheap quickly producable low crew requirement frigate that was cheap and therfore relatively expendable and oh did I mention it was cheap.
This is why they are not being produced now; Centaur-A aree still being produced but its been some time since a Mirand-A has been produced.
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- Location
- Cyberspace
[X][ROLES] Plan Leila Hann
Looks good to me. It hits how I think I want the Federation metal to be distributed, albeit a bit more concisely (and with requirements that look reasonable) than:
* You have the roaming (heavy) Explorers out on five year missions; they're meant to take on whatever oddities or tests occur in the search for new life and new civilizations.
* You have the static (light) Explorers anchoring sectors, giving (ideally) a strong prime responder to any emergencies or events, and doing a bit of light discovery on the side.
* You have the static Cruisers filling out a sector, both offering reinforcement to the prime responder or acting as first responders if the prime isn't able to get somewhere immediately.
* You have the static Frigates acting as another layer below Cruisers to expand coverage and reinforce... and escorting science, hospital and cargo vessels as necessary.
* You have the semi-static Science vessels that roam much like Explorers, but with a focus on, well, science, and entirely within 'safe' Federation boundaries (so they can draw upon the protection of the garrisons if necessary).
* You have the semi-static Hospital ships, taking on a role like the science vessels but focused on humanitarian efforts.
* You have the cargo vessels, which ship materials to where they need to go along 'trade' routes.
Incidentally, in the rolls you define, @Leila Hann , are hospital vessels considered outside the roles (like cargo)?
Looks good to me. It hits how I think I want the Federation metal to be distributed, albeit a bit more concisely (and with requirements that look reasonable) than:
* You have the roaming (heavy) Explorers out on five year missions; they're meant to take on whatever oddities or tests occur in the search for new life and new civilizations.
* You have the static (light) Explorers anchoring sectors, giving (ideally) a strong prime responder to any emergencies or events, and doing a bit of light discovery on the side.
* You have the static Cruisers filling out a sector, both offering reinforcement to the prime responder or acting as first responders if the prime isn't able to get somewhere immediately.
* You have the static Frigates acting as another layer below Cruisers to expand coverage and reinforce... and escorting science, hospital and cargo vessels as necessary.
* You have the semi-static Science vessels that roam much like Explorers, but with a focus on, well, science, and entirely within 'safe' Federation boundaries (so they can draw upon the protection of the garrisons if necessary).
* You have the semi-static Hospital ships, taking on a role like the science vessels but focused on humanitarian efforts.
* You have the cargo vessels, which ship materials to where they need to go along 'trade' routes.
Incidentally, in the rolls you define, @Leila Hann , are hospital vessels considered outside the roles (like cargo)?