The point I'm making is simple. If you look at the frigates people are actually physically designing in the SDB thread, they tend to be large, and they tend to have six or more units of crew. All these analogies you're making to World War Two naval combatants are kind of beside the point. Which is that the future trend is not moving in the direction of ships that are as small or smaller than the Miranda-class. It's moving towards significantly larger frigates, heavier than either the Miranda or the Centaur, and converging on the Renaissance-class in size if not in crew complement.
*facepalm* you're telling me that the Renaissance, which is classified as a cruiser, is the standard for which our frigates are designed? I know we chose the all big ship design philosophy, but there is such a thing as taking it too far.
*facepalm* you're telling me that the Renaissance, which is classified as a cruiser, is the standard for which our frigates are designed? I know we chose the all big ship design philosophy, but there is such a thing as taking it too far.
There are a number of reasons for this, but to summarize, us designers tend to Target costs with frigates, and costs are not very granular at the frigate level due to how costs are rounded. 1/2/2 crewing means it's difficult to improve on the Centaur-A. So we tend to step up to the most we can get with 1/3/3 crewing and reduce SR as much as possible. There is zero benefit to a smaller vessel that uses fewer crew than the designs being proposed, but still has enough to go over the cutoff for 3 crew (IE, if the 900kt design has 0.99/2.7/2.5 crewing, and the 750kt has 0.8/2.1/2.01, they both cost exactly the same once rounding takes place). Maybe with the 750kt you can save 5sr or so. So most everything that you will see is on an 800 or 900kt frame, because we can hold costs down reasonably on those frames and get maximum bamg for buck.
Frigates are, pound for pound, more efficient than cruisers or explorers. We actually can't build the Rennie on the sheet as a cruiser with tech it's level. We can as a 1050kt frame frigate. The 1mt frame is actually a little small for reasonable use; cruisers just cost so much more crew you're better off stepping up to the 1500kt frame and using Heavy parts to minimize crewing costs while getting more value.
Tl;Dr: there are good reasons for the sizing choices, and there is no reason to downsize unless you insist on having less value per unit of cost so you can have a lower per-hull cost.
Edit: the Centaur is a 800kt design. Barely smaller than the Rennie. So, this is a canonical trend, not just us.
*facepalm* you're telling me that the Renaissance, which is classified as a cruiser, is the standard for which our frigates are designed? I know we chose the all big ship design philosophy, but there is such a thing as taking it too far.
It's actually more that the Renaissance is an exception, being literally as light as it's possible for a cruiser to be. A proper cruiser would be Jaldun-sized or larger. Something like 1.5mt is the current "ideal" cruiser.
But there are design reasons why certain types of frigates are being built bigger. We don't drop ship quantity in buckets these days, we match ships to roles and to events. The way both our garrison events and our combat resolutions are structured, it's far more important to give a good match to each roll than to make more attempts in most cases. And in that kind of 1:1 matching, a larger more capable ship is, up to a point, simply better than having more smaller ships.
There are certainly plenty of exceptions, but they're things like padding out the two free fire phases in combat, or if we hadn't chosen Lone Ranger doctrine. But in terms of quality vs quantity, since D requirements aren't a big issue and instead we're deploying against event expectations, and since the combat engine was reworked to have two individual phases at the start, we do need some relatively cheap ships that can reliably compete or pass. Frigates remain relatively cheap even at 900kt to 1mt and can be built to perform at high quality in specialized roles.
Much of ship costing doesn't really scale either. BR scales precisely with hull size, but the difference between a 900kt frigate and a 600kt frigate might be 60sr vs 50sr. The current sweet spot for ship design in terms of crew and SR efficiency is likely somewhere between 800kt and 1mt. Under 800kt, your ship still costs loads of SR and you still can't reduce crew below 1/2/2 without a lot of sacrifice. Over 1mt, SR and crew costs start to increase as scaling factors take over.
All that said, there's probably still a place for a 700kt combat frigate, it's just not currently a priority since we already have one and new designs wouldn't be significantly more efficient.
e: Changing vote
[X] [PLAN] Test the Shields
[X] [PROPULSION] Lor'Vela Orbital Drafting Bureau : 2320s Civilian Warp Systems
[X][BOOST] Yoyodyne, Prograde Operations Team, All-Pyllix Geological Institute, Intazzi Team, Generic Team 3
Also, critical for ship construction is berth size. We have a lot of 1mt construction yards, and a handful of 3mt. Making as many ship types able to fit in 1mt is really useful for being able to make them in quantity when we want them. We are buying cheaper 2mt yards when we can as we know eventually, we will want them for 1.5 to 1.8 or so Mt size cruisers in the future, but we are not there yet.
The ship size categories seem to vary depending on tech level. For current Federation-peer societies, I'd say it looks something like:
< 500 KT = Corvette/Swarmer
500-750 KT = Light Frigate
751-999 KT = Heavy Frigate/Destroyer
1MT-1.4 MT = Light Cruiser
1.5-1.8 MT = Heavy Cruiser/Battlecruiser
1.9+ MT = Capital Ship/Explorer/Battleship
Back in the TOS era, anything 1MT and up would have been a capship, with the smaller categories all shrinking down accordingly. In the TNG era, capships would probably be minimum 3 MT, and the excelsior would be reclassified as a cruiser of some type (that's basically the role they seemed to play in TNG and DS9 anyway).
This is in part the Rule The Waves influence coming in.
But also corresponds to some of what we saw in canon.
Excelsiors when they came in were staggeringly sized ships. By the time of TNG, they were smaller than Akiras (off the top of my head). So you did see that rather than new brackets being added on top in some ridiculous Honor Harrington system, you found that the brackets were expanding, so cruisers became larger than Excelsiors, and the true Heavy Explorer capitals became 5mt monsters (or D'Deridexes or Negh'vars)
[X][PLAN] Plan Test the Shields
-[X] Yoyodyne : 2310s Warp Propulsion
-[X] Ana Font Design Group : 2320s Warp Core Safety
-[X] Caitian Frontier Police R&D : Primitive Integration
-[X] Aerocommandos Research Corps : 2320s Equipment
-[X] Oreasa Yards Design Group : 2320s Navigational Deflectors
-[X] Vulcan Science Academy : 2310s Xenopsychology
-[X] Starfleet Medical Research Command : 2320s Multi-Species Care
-[X] Taves Nar Orbital Engineering : 2310s Starbase Design - Repair
-[X] Kuznetsova's Tiger Team : Horizon Research No. of Votes: 6
——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: PROPULSION
[X][PROPULSION] Lor'Vela Orbital Drafting Bureau : 2320s Sublight Motion No. of Votes: 5
"We're through the minefield. No further casualties. Task Force Five is following through the path we've cleared...not reporting any more incidents, sir."
I give the officer a lazy, confident, smile that projects the confidence that he needs to see. We've penetrated the outer defenses, but USS Insight and USS T'Kumbra both were crippled. We made perfect time through the Badlands - thanks to the sensors on the Excelsiors and Foragers, every one of my ships circumvented the plasma storms in just over a week - but it looks like the Cardassians have made use of the three months we were forced to delay. It's a good thing we at least have the engineering ships with us, and a healthy Task Force 3 for escort duty; T'Kumbra and Insight can be towed back to Collie without further delays, and I'm told they can be repaired quickly.
"Signal Commodore McAdams on the Sojourner," I say, "Have her escort Onzalla toward that outpost while Sam's force guards the rear."
The Amarki squire at communications snaps to it. Around me, the blue and silver lining and upholstery of the Riala's CIC shine and glimmer around the uniforms and armor of her crew. It's just like the Orion campaign, except the opponent's threat is so much greater.
"Getting sensor reports from all units, Rear Admiral ka'Sharren, there's no ships in system. Just the outpost and two weapon platforms, and they look like they've been stripped down. The outpost's reactor is running, and its shields and life support are up, but the torpedo bays, shuttle hangars, cargo holds, all empty. No life signs."
My eyes narrow. This Konen commander has tricked us too many times before, and with his ships' ability to trick our sensors there's no surprise I'm not expecting.
"Conduct a full sweep. Have each task force ready to support the other on a millisecond's notice."
Hours later, there's still nothing. No hiding ships. No camouflaged outposts buried in asteroid fields. Just the warp signatures of a half dozen ships fleeing the system hours in advance. They fled the system as soon as we started making our way through the minefield. 26 Enio is completely abandoned.
On one hand, we've made them lose a system. On the other, they've made us lose two ships, while their own fleet is untouched.
"Rear Admiral ka'Sharren," Squire Rulai at comm again, "we've gotten a communique from Collie Outpost. Konen frigates managed to hit Sguirri as we were coming out of the Badlands. One stinger was destroyed, one bumblebee crippled. The raiders retreated after taking moderate damage."
I bite down on my own teeth. Did I requisition too many ships for Starfleet's own systems, or would this have happened no matter how I distributed the defenders? I've already asked a lot from the Apiata, in the form of most of their Forager ships. I suspect the enemy knows that. Just like the attack on Collie, they're attacking the Federation's will to contest the Gabriel Expanse. My own will to continue onwards.
That's also why they've denied us the fight after luring us through a minefield. Dragging it out. Making us hurt one small bit at a time for no material benefit. At the very least, those frigates will now have to limp all the way back to 45 Gabriel, and their chances of launching another successful raid are lower with the loss of their advance outpost.
"Commodore McAdams has finished her probe of the outpost. No obvious traps."
I put my hands together, lowering my chin as I gaze at the dull orange space station rotating mockingly on the viewscreen. "CIC to Knight-Captain Eldriss. I'd like to beam Commodores McAdams and Mrr'Shan over for a strategy discussion, at your soonest convenience."
...
First things first, we must decide what to do with the infrastructure left behind at 26 Enio. The Cardassians and Konen must have been preparing to abandon this system ever since they saw our fleet start to gather at Collie, but they still did it at short notice when we entered the minefield; most likely, they've been preparing ALL of their outer systems to be abandoned, and only knew we'd come through the Badlands to hit this one after we'd done it. Some valuable equipment must have been left on the outpost and its weapon platforms; at the very least, we might gather some useful intelligence about Cardassian hardware. On the other hand, Sam is convinced that there must be a trap, even if we've failed to detect it, and my own experiences of Cardassian tactics from my Enterprise gives me cause agree with her. It's a question of risk and reward, not to mention how confident I am in the people under my command to outsmart any hazards they've left.
[][OUTPOST]
-[] Destroy the abandoned Cardassian outpost
-[] Seize the abandoned Cardassian outpost
Our second fish to fry is a fatter and juicier one. The enemy can't deny us a fight forever, and the next system on our agenda, 24 Enio, is the site - or so the shens and zhens at Starfleet Intelligence have been telling us - of a lucrative woznium mining operation.
Rosalee surprised us with another suggestion, though, and it's one that might just surprise the enemy as well. 24 Enio is the logical next target, perhaps, but our final objective, the major Cardassian system of 45 Gabriel, isn't that much further away, and attacking it immediately while their forces are divided between the two systems might just let us cut the head off their operations in this sector before they realize what's happened.
There's some unpleasant risks associated with that, though. If they detect us while we bypass 24 Enio, they'll surely concentrate their forces at 45 Gabriel to meet us. Leaving an intact enemy base behind our front line might also give my diamond-browed counterpart the idea to send its garrison on an all out-offense against one of our own systems.
We could also separate. Rosalee and I can take Task Force 4 to 45 Gabriel, while Sam brings Task Force 5 to 24 Enio, after shuffling ships around to make up for the losses Rosalee took to the minefield. I'm reluctant to have a small force attack a defended system with an unknown number of enemy ships in each, though; if we go that route, we'd best delay here at 26 Enio until we can get scouts to those systems and back. That'll also give our reinforcements from the Tailward theater time to arrive. However, it will also give the enemy more time to devise countermeasures, and we've already seen what happens when this konen fellow is given time to prepare.
[][OBJECTIVE]
-[] Attack the 24 Enio System. You will have to then move on to 45 Gabriel after seizing it.
-[] Bypass 24 Enio and go straight to the 45 Gabriel system. There is a chance you will be detected and the enemy will reinforce that system, and the enemy garisson at 24 Enio may decide to attack your own systems.
-[] Wait until the end of the month for intel and reinforcements, and then send one task force at each system. The enemy may or may not use this time to bring reinforcements and launch an attack of their own.
Whatever we choose, with Task Force 4 down a cruiser and frigate, I may want to move some ships around while we're still close to home. It took us a week to make it through the Badlands, but one or two ships with decent sensors should be able to run it in much less time.
[][SHIPS]
-[]Keep the task forces as they are.
-[]Call up to two ships with S scores of at least 3 from Task Force 1 or 2 to replace the ones crippled by the minefield; Collie and 14 Camden will be more vulnerable to counterattack. (which ships?)
Task Force 1 (defend Collie)
COM Brufaogm Wev
Select up to 12 points worth of ships. Minimum 20S.
-USS Spirit, NCC-2025, Excelsior-A
-USS Gale, NCC-2106, Centaur-A (B)
-USS Intrepid, NCC-1657, Miranda-A
-USS Bon Vivant, NCC-1621, Miranda-A, Captain Shurg kap Klasch
-CSS Blueclaw, Mishir, NCC-2808
-CSS Whitecoat, Mishir, NCC-2809
-Forager Iorapa, NCC 3303
Sensibility rarely comes into it when the news sites start to publish the photos and names of casualties. Member world forces are always more sensitive to casualties than Starfleet.
[X][OUTPOST]
-[X] Destroy the abandoned Cardassian outpost
The Cardassian outpost is obviously booby-trapped. no sense in taking unnecessary casualties when we don't have to.
[X][OBJECTIVE]
-[X][24 ENIO] Attack the 24 Enio System. You will have to then move on to 45 Gabriel after seizing it.
[X][SHIPS]
-[X][NO CHANGE] Keep the task forces as they are.
I'm very tempted to vote on seizing the outpost and going for 24 Ennio. It'll give us a forward position and the Cardassians have to give battle or lose a lot of internal credibility.
I know, it's an obvious trap. Then again, is 'thoroughly investigate the outpost with drones' a possibility?
[X][OUTPOST]
-[X] Seize the abandoned Cardassian outpost
[X][OBJECTIVE]
-[X][45 Gabriel] Bypass 24 Enio and go straight to the 45 Gabriel system. There is a chance you will be detected and the enemy will reinforce that system, and the enemy garisson at 24 Enio may decide to attack your own systems.
