To be fair to the Cardi's we sort of been wrecking their fleet all this time. It was inevitable that they would do something to retaliate and I don't hold it against them for that personally, what annoys me is how they treat their prisoners.
Yeah, honestly, Starfleet has been the most aggressive with Fleet actions in the GBZ.
The Cardassians have been quite happy to send solo Jalduns in to test the waters, try to pick off a cargo ship, have a shoot out with one of our Connie-Bs. But the only time they moved actual fleets on us was when they were covering for the Syndraxians colony removal action - and those forces were pulled back as soon as it was clear that the Syndraxians were clear to pick up their people and run.
Meanwhile we used a fleet blitz to remove the entire Syndraxian contingent and hit one of the forward staging areas to prevent Cardassian reinforcements from reaching Syndraxian space when they feel into civil disturbance.
Now, as we the players are on the Federation side, that is all well and good. But damn it must be painful to be playing Negaverse Cardassia Quest.
Or Verdun-style bleeding white tactics if you prefer. If you've lost ships, and they've lost ships, and nothing else has changed, the Council is going to start wondering what the point is.
At a certain point people need results. If you start a war, the front bogs down and the whole thing degenerates into a cycle of A attacks B but is rebunked, now B attacks A but is rebunked, people aren't going to be happy.
Casualties rise and when people start asking questions, answering "What do you mean stalemate? Shooting down A's ships is the point of the whole thing!" Isn't going to be accepted.
Another example would be repeated failed offensives against the same hostile planet. Claiming the offensives were successful because X amount of enemy ships were destroyed will have people raising eyebrows.
Destroying enemy ships is a way to reach goals, not a goal in and of itself.
On the other hand, if we destroy enough ships we can reasonably claim the threatened sectors have been made secure because the Cardassians can't afford to launch further attacks, on account of already being stretched so thin. Hell, do enough damage and they'll have to pull reinforcements just to hold what they have, leading to problems elsewhere.
Look, just keep in your mind how you'd want to lead off a press conference in the Federation, addressing a bunch of Vulcan journalists. If you want to fight a decisive battle, fight one, and decide the campaign. Don't try to bleed each other white and then try to fight the campaign. (There's a few important Sun Tzu quotes on this topic, about not dulling the blade of your army and what the acme of generalship really is)
This is still a Trek quest even when at war, after all.
At a certain point people need results. If you start a war, the front bogs down and the whole thing degenerates into a cycle of A attacks B but is rebunked, now B attacks A but is rebunked, people aren't going to be happy.
Another example would be repeated failed offensives against the same hostile planet. Claiming the offensives were successful because X amount of enemy ships were destroyed will have people raising eyebrows.
Destroying enemy ships is a way to reach goals, not a goal in and of itself.
I am not saying that 'Destroying ships' is the goal. The goal is the defence of our current holdings. The front 'bogging down' is a success because we have successfully stopped our holdings from being attacked.
You could even say that also have another goal which is to continue to map and claim unclaimed systems in the GBZ.
Any fighting along fronts or raiding to degrade their ability to attack our holdings advances those goals.
"Ladies, Gentlemen and Lizards, I am pleased to announce that after the previous incursion that led to the loss of the Republic that Federation assets after the recent surge have successfully pushed Pact forces back from our claimed sectors. It is Starfleets hope that with this reset in GBZ positioning the Pact forces will take this chance to deescalate and return to focusing on unclaimed sectors of the GBZ. To any Pact officials watching this broadcast I say to you, Do not push us further."
I am not saying that 'Destroying ships' is the goal. The goal is the defence of our current holdings. The front 'bogging down' is a success because we have successfully stopped our holdings from being attacked.
You could even say that also have another goal which is to continue to map and claim unclaimed systems in the GBZ.
Any fighting along fronts or raiding to degrade their ability to attack our holdings advances those goals.
"Ladies, Gentlemen and Lizards, I am pleased to announce that after the previous incursion that led to the loss of the Republic that Federation assets after the recent surge have successfully pushed Pact forces back from our claimed sectors. It is Starfleets hope that with this reset in GBZ positioning the Pact forces will take this chance to deescalate and return to focusing on unclaimed sectors of the GBZ. To any Pact officials watching this broadcast I say to you, Do not push us further."
That's a nothingburger and everyone will know it. The Council & Federation as a whole won't buy it. The entire point of this escalation is to punish the Pact in retaliation for the destruction of the Republic. Pulling all the extra ships to the GBZ to do nothing but hold systems that aren't under active military threat is a failure, and trying to spin it the way you are will just look even worse.
I dont think its a failure at all. We can basically push the Cardassian forces back into 'fronts' most likely bloodying their noses in the process. The extra ships can now leave while we relying on the preexisting fleet to hold the Pact forces where they currently are.
So we have expressed our displeasure at their actions and its now on them to see if they escalate again or if we move back to our previous postures.
Im sure the thread will let me know if im wrong, but I dont think we want to open this skirmish up into a full war with Pact members (at this point in time).
That's a nothingburger and everyone will know it. The Council & Federation as a whole won't buy it. The entire point of this escalation is to punish the Pact in retaliation for the destruction of the Republic. Pulling all the extra ships to the GBZ to do nothing but hold systems that aren't under active military threat is a failure, and trying to spin it the way you are will just look even worse.
Systems were under military threat, though. T'Lorel considered a reaction like this well before the destruction of the Republic and only held off because she was ending her tenure. We've lost auxiliary ships and enemy forces have attempted to raid our colonies.
I would say state objectives like this:
1. To put an end to raiding tactics by destroying Cardassian / Ashalla Pact logistics bases in the Enio sector and pushing their logistics chain back to Gabriel, which will also allow the restart of prospecting in sectors adjacent to Enio.
2. To ascertain the fate of the Republic's crew.
Development and Expansionist and Hawks would all support #1, and it is absolutely true that we want to put an end to the Konen commander's raiding campaign.
We don't have to say it at the press conference, but we can communicate the following to Nash and her command team.
2. (continued) And retrieve them by rescue or prisoner exchange.
3. To reduce Cardassian strength by destroying or damaging their ships, reducing their ability to operate in the GBZ, and disrupting their shipbuilding schedules.
The apparent goal of this scuffle is to destroy/sufficiently pressure the Starbase at 67 Gabriel that they cough up the prisoners from the Republic.
In order to do this, we need to clear Enio 26 (main Enio Pact Forces + outpost) and either clear or have our own flanking forces watching their suspected flanking forces at Enio 12.
Once Enio 26 is cleared, there are no significant static defences along the line of advance until Enio 24, which hosts an Outpost and a SR mine. Presumably forces falling back from Enio 26 and Enio 2 would meet us here, possibly reinforced by forces from Gabriel.
Assuming Enio 24 is successfully cleared, Gabriel 61 & 77 hold nothing known of interest and their forces might set up ambushes there, but won't try to hold the line.
Gabriel 45 hosts an Outpost and another SR mine - so it is the logical next contender for a serious fight. Whether the Pact forces will try to halt us here depends on how many ships they have lost/had crippled and the state of any reinforcements. It may be written off as not defendable if we have done significant damage to their mobile forces without taking similar return damage. If Cardassia is screaming for SR materials, they may try to defend even if the force projections say it is a poor move.
Gabriel 67 hosts a Starbase - whether we contest this system or just threaten it depends heavily on the losses reaching this far - we are facing potentially [3 outpost+defender] battles to penetrate this far into Pact territory. This system will be defended, even if it is throwing already damaged hulls into the fray - losing a Starbase is a big hit to their logistics/power projection capability. If they lose the Starbase, they may be unable to exploit Enio at all until a replacement system is built.
If the battles go poorly, and we take significant shipping losses/repair jobs, just pushing the Pact out of Enio may be a politically sufficient step, but it would not satisfy Starfleet if the prisoners are not recovered.
Unless the Pact forces have been heavily reinforced, I don't see any likely path where we need the main task forces to fall back to our own static defence lines.
I would say state objectives like this:
1. To put an end to raiding tactics by destroying Cardassian / Ashalla Pact logistics bases in the Enio sector and pushing their logistics chain back to Gabriel, which will also allow the restart of prospecting in sectors adjacent to Enio.
2. To ascertain the fate of the Republic's crew.
2. (continued) And retrieve them by rescue or prisoner exchange.
3. To reduce Cardassian strength by destroying or damaging their ships, reducing their ability to operate in the GBZ, and disrupting their shipbuilding schedules.
Assuming Enio 24 is successfully cleared, Gabriel 61 & 77 hold nothing known of interest and their forces might set up ambushes there, but won't try to hold the line.
I was basing off the initial post from Oneiros, which lists nothing there. Error, deliberate, fog of war, potential site that has not yet been developed ... who knows.
The Cardassians are an interstellar polity that has food shortages. They have no business competing with the Federation economy, but their politics will force them to match us ship for ship, thus bankrupting them, as they spend a much higher proportion of their budget just to keep up.
Honestly, it seems like the Cardassians don't so much have food shortages as such, as they have a combination of transportation shortages plus deliberately engineered famines as a mechanism of social control. Hunger is an extremely powerful weapon for coercing a restive population, and the Cardassian Union is all about finding powerful weapons to use against their own people in case of disloyalty or rebellion.
It's not that they actually have problems feeding everyone if they make that a priority. It's that they don't make that a priority. They profit too much from the propaganda value of "people are starving dammit" in a society where nobody except the Bureau of Central Planning actually gets access to the real economic statistics and can point out why people are starving.
But it's not this specific situation - we're being told that the Council fundamentally does not buy into destroying enemy ships as a measure of success, and that political will is going to be our main obstacle in all future wars. Which makes sense, but still renders our preferred Doctrine's methods as being inefficient - we have to attack bases anyway to look like we're succeeding by the metrics the Council is using, so we might as well have just taken Base Strike and been done with it.
Or are you suggesting that in the future the Council is going to start accepting that destroying enemy ships is, in of itself, a valid aim and strategy?
In the context of the Gabriel Expanse, bragging about how many Cardassian ships we've destroyed is kind of pointless. The Council's objective in the Expanse is not and has never been "weaken the future size of the Cardassian navy in a war we consider inevitable by blowing up their ships." It's something like:
1) Secure access to the resources in the Expanse,
2) Stop the Cardassians from linking up with the Sydraxians and becoming a major threat on our flank,
3) And (for the most hawkish members) something like 'deny resources to Cardassia.'
For those purposes, in the context of an intentionally limited war, blowing up Cardassian ships is little or no more relevant than killing Chinese soldiers was as a measure of victory in the Korean War.
For the US in Korea, there was no possibility of actually knocking China out of the war once they entered it, or of killing more soldiers than China actually had. Winning by attrition was impossible even at very favorable loss ratios. And any general who points to such loss ratios in such a context is being foolish in a bloody-minded way. What mattered in that context was being able to hold a secure, well-defended border that could serve as the basis for partition of the peninsula- control of territory.
Similarly, in the Gabriel Expanse, blowing up ten Cardassian ships for the loss of five of our own doesn't really mean anything. Hypothetically it means we're "up five" in case of a future war with Cardassia... but that war might not occur for twenty years, or it might never happen. The Council probably hopes it never will. Even if it does, so much will happen between now and then that the loss or gain of those five ships is likely to be insignificant by comparison.
So in this context a huge fleet-to-fleet victory only means something if direct results become apparent and we aren't just blowing up enemy ships for the sake of pretty fireworks. In a different context it might be far more significant- say, because the fleet-to-fleet victory ends a threat to the security of Seyek space, or makes it possible for us to liberate Bajor.
Whereas we have no way to follow up on the destruction of Cardassian ships here. Not really. Even if we wipe out their whole fleet, they can have another fleet in place before we even secure full control of the Expanse, and the Treaty of Celos means that advantages we secure in the Expanse don't change much outside it, not directly.
1) @OneirosTheWriter , I may be confused about your post showing 'fronts,' here. My biggest concern is just making sure that whatever operations-level simulator you devise doesn't leave people going "WAIT WHAT HOW" from counterintuitive results. Like, space is big and you CAN just fly around someone's fortifications; their mobile fleet can of course sortie to intercept you but you CAN fly around things. A tactical result that seems predicated on "there is no way to fly past System A to get to System B, period" would be bad.
I'm not saying you're going to produce such results, mind; I just want to underline the importance of avoiding them. No system and purely "winging it" as to what battles occur where and when would be better than a system that is conspicuously 'unrealistic' and works the way it does only because of QM fiat.
2) Some measure of customization is going to be important. It's largely pointless to let us pick which ships we're sending into a war zone if we have no influence over how they're used. So I recommend trying to come up with some mechanic (plan voting?) by which this can be done. For example, sending Blooded Centaur-As into a war zone to escort convoys is a bad idea; that job can equally well be done by a lot of other ships. Sending them to lead the scout forces of our battlegroups and gain an advantage over enemy frigates with their superior Science scores? That makes sense!
Again, this is not a criticism of what you're doing now, it's a general "please remember to do this" thing.
Oh you absolutely can. Sometimes it may even be the right call.
But I mean, that's exactly why I listed what systems/task forces are protecting the flanks of the axis of advance, because you have to worry about things like that, and if you don't have a force in place, the enemy is liable to outpace you there. They can take a longer route around, but you'll be able to track them more easily on sensors the further they get from more heavily trafficked paths and their more churned up subspace wakes, and you'll arrive later than a force on a straight-line course.
Also if you bypass a defended place, you still need some sort of force to bottle them up or protect you, otherwise their ships will merrily raid you.
2) Some measure of customization is going to be important. It's largely pointless to let us pick which ships we're sending into a war zone if we have no influence over how they're used. So I recommend trying to come up with some mechanic (plan voting?) by which this can be done. For example, sending Blooded Centaur-As into a war zone to escort convoys is a bad idea; that job can equally well be done by a lot of other ships. Sending them to lead the scout forces of our battlegroups and gain an advantage over enemy frigates with their superior Science scores? That makes sense!
As an example. We believe there is a flanking force as Enio 12. We don't go close to them, leave some sensor bouys or something, we aren't ignoring them, just not prioritizing them.
Our front line pushes into Gabriel, and needs resupply - expended torpedoes etc. How close to Enio 12 do those cargo ships have to fly to get to the fleet in time ....
Yeah, honestly, Starfleet has been the most aggressive with Fleet actions in the GBZ.
The Cardassians have been quite happy to send solo Jalduns in to test the waters, try to pick off a cargo ship, have a shoot out with one of our Connie-Bs. But the only time they moved actual fleets on us was when they were covering for the Syndraxians colony removal action - and those forces were pulled back as soon as it was clear that the Syndraxians were clear to pick up their people and run.
Meanwhile we used a fleet blitz to remove the entire Syndraxian contingent and hit one of the forward staging areas to prevent Cardassian reinforcements from reaching Syndraxian space when they feel into civil disturbance.
Now, as we the players are on the Federation side, that is all well and good. But damn it must be painful to be playing Negaverse Cardassia Quest.
I think the value of "our" for which "our original motive" was as you say is a bit flexible. I mean, a lot of the questgoers considered that a priority, but there was also talk of preventing a Cardassian-Sydraxian linkup at the time, and talk of the advantages of those resources going to us.
I should also point out that I think a lot of the questgoers are more sanguine about war with Cardassia, and more convinced that it's inevitable, than people in-universe. This influences our thinking. To someone who thinks war with Cardassia is inevitable, the Cardassians getting a big extra blob of resources is a disaster. To someone who thinks it's not inevitable, it's neutral news or even good news. For instance, if you think the Cardassians are inclined to fight because they want to steal resources, them developing resources that they don't have to kill anyone for is an alternative.
I think the value of "our" for which "our original motive" was as you say is a bit flexible. I mean, a lot of the questgoers considered that a priority, but there was also talk of preventing a Cardassian-Sydraxian linkup at the time, and talk of the advantages of those resources going to us.
I should also point out that I think a lot of the questgoers are more sanguine about war with Cardassia, and more convinced that it's inevitable, than people in-universe. This influences our thinking. To someone who thinks war with Cardassia is inevitable, the Cardassians getting a big extra blob of resources is a disaster. To someone who thinks it's not inevitable, it's neutral news or even good news. For instance, if you think the Cardassians are inclined to fight because they want to steal resources, them developing resources that they don't have to kill anyone for is an alternative.
On one hand, our in-universe analysts have told us that war is probably inevitable.
On the other, I can't deny that my knowledge that this is a game, and that a climactic war with the Cardassians after a lengthy buildup would be good game design, has an equally strong influence on my thinking.
If anyone else wants to write up where their Enterprise-B OCs went after the Zeroth Battle of Alpha Centauri now is probably a good time to get that sorted.
Arthur Acheson feels nostalgic at the sound of gravel crunching underfoot, as he walks along the long path from where the transporter had deposited him, keeping the bag over his shoulder held carefully in place.
There is a gentle whine of metal on metal as he steps through the fence gate. He smiles in the gentle tree cast shade as he closes the gate behind him.
"Captain!"
Arthur knows better than to jump as he turns back around, a familiar figure has stepped onto the pathway. "That's Captain Acheson to you!"
The figure smiles in the bright sunlight, "Now come here so that I can salute you properly."
"Sir!" says Acheson walking briskly up the path towards the house, "Colonel, sir!"
"Ah, hell, son. You'll outrank me soon enough, I haven't been in uniform since '93." Says Colonel (ret) Abraham Acheson, United Earth Military Assault Command Operations, dropping his own salute and coming in for a hug.
Arthur awkwardly drops the Starfleet Issue Duffle bag as he returns his father's bear hug.
After a long moment the older man steps back, hand still on his son's shoulder, "Let me get a good look at you!" he smiles broadly, "Captain Acheson. First Acheson in Starfleet since it was the UE fleet and you've made Captain already. Got your own bloody ship! I'm goddamn proud son!" he waves towards to house's open doorway, "Come in! Your mother's still at the capital, but she'll be back soon. Alice is out in the parks, she won't be back until tomorrow, but you can use her room tonight"
"Thanks, Sir, sorry about the short notice, but I wasn't even able to get leave until last night, a lot to sort out back on Earth."
"Ahhh, Earth, always busy busy there. I'm actually glad I was retired, Vega really suits me." Says the elder Acheson, his son accepting the lie and politely ignoring the small hint of regret in the man's eyes.
"Anyway, do I get my picture on the wall now Sir?" Arthur says with only slightly forced cheer, "I've got it right here!" He digs in the duffle bag and pulls out a small photo of him taken during his promotion ceremony and hands it to his father.
"Looking good son" he grins and walks over to a wooden wall covered with other photos, a collage made up of men and women with distinct resemblance to the two in the room, "Right here I think?" Says the retired Colonel, pointing to a piece of wall under the black and white photo of a man with stars on his epaulettes and next to another of a younger version of himself with the cuff marks of a Lieutenant and a red shirted uniform.
"There." He says stepping back, "Between General Acheson and... Lieutenant Acheson." His voice cracks slightly.
"Yes. Sir." Arthur puts his arm around his father's shoulder, "Hell of a thing. We'll need a new wall soon enough."
His father gives him a grin, "You know we'll also need a model of your ship to go with the others in the kitchen, your mother wants to hang it over that old US destroyer. You know, next to Daedalus."
The younger Acheson laughs. "Honestly, Sir, I still don't know why they gave me a ship, I'm still security at heart. Stephanie calls me an 'overgrown boy scout'" He sits on an old and well loved couch and setting his bag a worn and wooden coffee table.
His father smiles as he sits at a couch on the opposite side of the table, "Speaking of which. When do we get to meet this woman?"
"Stephanie?" Arthur sucks in a breath, "Honestly it's hard enough getting time to come out to Vega myself. Trying to line up with her own schedule at Tactical is hard mode."
"You'll have to do it eventually."
"You might have to come to Sol for the wedding," says Arthur, pointing out the glass that made up the outside wall of the living room.
"Sol? Nah, no need to go back." Abraham pats the couch he's sitting on and gestures at the wooden panelling of the floor and ceiling, "I've got everything I need here."
"Ahh. Right" Acheson leans forward and unzips the blue duffle bag, "So, Cardassian." He takes out a bottle of something thick and nearly black, setting it on the table.
"Cardassian, Eh?" says the elder Acheson as he pulls out a pen and a pair of shot glasses from a drawer beneath the coffee table, "What's this called?"
"Kanar."
Arthur takes the pen and carefully writes "Kanar / Cardassian / Arthur / Enterprise / 2310" on the label of the bottle before pouring out a couple of shots, "To the Cardassians!"
"To the Cardassians!" says the elder Acheson as the two knock back the thick, syrupy, drink.
"Wow." says Abraham.
"Wow. Indeed." agrees Arthur, putting the lid back on.
"I feel like I just got in a fight." says Abraham.
"Heh, yeah, it'll do that to you Sir. Cardassians love the stuff though." Says Arthur as he takes the bottle and stands up, putting it in an ancient drinks cabinet next to a bottle labelled 'Bloodwine / Klingon / Abraham / Hood / 2267'.
He takes a brief moment to look at some of the other bottles: 'Turo Ale / Xindi / Aaron / Enterprise / 2154' and '???? ROMULAN ALE / ???? ROMULAN / Aaron / Enterprise / 2160" among them. Would one of his children carry on this tradition and add bottles labelled 'Horizon', 'ISC', or belonging to some other, as yet, unmet enemy of Earth?
He hoped there would be no need. There are some traditions that don't need to be passed down from generation to generation.
