Er, what about the Constitution-B? They explicitly get no refit, ever. If we had the excess SR to build enough Rennies to transfer their crew over....
If we are crew-limited and not berth-limited in the foreseeable future, that may make sense. However, we'd be spending a LOT of resources and berth time for an incremental upgrade, at least prior to the development of the Renaissance-A refit I assume will be coming some time around 2330.

Small keplar build, as in built in small numbers. not tonnage.
That's incredibly confusing. Why didn't you say "build a small number of Keplers" in the first place?
The usual phrase for what Tyrial seems to have wanted to say is a "small production run" of Keplers.
 
@Nix I know you wanted to take advantage of the explorer research bonus we are getting from the admiral but I think we need to move UP onto cruiser research as the biggest sticking point between the current designs in SDB and producing them is that they use T3 sub frames. Also we should stick Generic Team 3 on cruiser research once they finish the T2 Escort Combat next year. Also we need to put one of the defense doctrine teams on mobility focus. That will let Utopia finish T2 cruiser science in 1 year with a boost, without that tech UP would need 2 years. Combat and engineering take 2 years either way so we can put UP on engineering in 2319-2320, then science for 2321 and then work on T3 engineering and science while generic 3 works on T2 combat. Then 3 years for each of the T3. Generic 3 will take 4 years for T2 Combat and 5 for T3 combat so they will finish at the same time in 10 years.

So
UP:
2319-2320 T2 Engineering
2321 T2 Science (with boost)
2322-2324 T3 Engineering
2325-2327 T3 Science
Generic 3 (graduates next year):
2319-2322 T2 Combat
2323-2327 T3 Combat

Then UP will work on the research for the prototype. At that point it will have +4 tech bonus to cruiser research and will be skill 7 so 18 pt, that should put it in the range for finishing a slide in 1 year, so 2 years for research and then prototype (and we will have access to techs that reduce prototype cost and time)
Moving UP to cruiser design after their current project was the plan all along. Whether we can GT3 over or need them for frigate design depends on when we start the Centaur successor, if it's 2323 we will probably need them. Mobility focus also doesn't seem likely to be done before 2321, as of now Frontline Infrastructure, Dispersed Industry, Deep Space Construction and Frontier Service Training seem like higher priorities. Assuming no new teams it would be available in 2325, though if you want to advocate for a new team in one of the next few years that's fine. We need a shield team next year, a sensor team the year after, and another warp team sooner or later, but other than that we are pretty open. We might also get another cruiser team if we get one from a new member where we like their second specialization.
 
Personally I see it as every Kepler we can leave in sector garrisons during a crisis is an extra combat cruiser elsewhere we can pull into a fleetball. Being able to cover the entire Starfleet D requirement with just noncombat ships means every strength can be leveraged without needing to reduce pp and income.
I don't know about doing it entirely with Keplers. Combat events also happen.
 
I'm trying to put to words why this is basically the last 2-3 years of Excelsior production, and am failing.

But it boils down to just the matter of cost with them. Crew Investment and resource expenses are fairly clear cut across the board with this. When the Ambassador rolls off the line, The Excelsior-class should not receive any new build orders.

Now that said, the Hypothetical Enlightenment-class is very appetizing when in conjunction with something like half a dozen tech sets coming to completion over the next few years. And being able to take advantage of them with something that we can sneak into the 2MT yards we can build and not directly fight for the 3MT yards is frankly a no brainer.
 
In wartime, I would rather have combat ships fleets where fighting is guaranteed and the future of the Federation is at stake than doing events where there is hardly a chance at combat checks at all and the worst that happens is we lose a light cruiser sized frigate.


Can you just state what ratio you think frigates should be split between Kepler and Balanced Frigate. I still don't really see what you are after, other then blanketing the federation in Keplers, is that just because you expect a 30 yr build before a replacement is introduced, or you don't want balanced frigates.
 
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Can you just state what ratio you think frigates should be split between Kepler and Balanced Frigate.
No. I don't think these designs should be in competition. Over the full production run, we will want X Kepler and Y Balanced Frigate and those numbers are independent. That they compete for the same resources doesn't figure into the calculus because both designs are cheap enough that full runs of both ships together will only take, what, something like 8 years of resources? It's hardly relevant when we're spending multiple times that on explorers.

e: More the former, the 30 year time. I see the Kepler being in use for 50 years and in production for 30.
 
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No. I don't think these designs should be in competition. Over the full production run, we will want X Kepler and Y Balanced Frigate and those numbers are independent.

It means I don't know how you envisage starfleet to look in that 10-20 bracket at all. Which makes this discussion pointless.

Yes, we should have some keplers and some Balanced frigates that's all I can respond.

I'm trying to put to words why this is basically the last 2-3 years of Excelsior production, and am failing.

IMO, unless there is an emergency in the next 3 years, I don't see why we would make them at all.
 
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It means I don't know how you envisage starfleet to look in that 10-20 bracket at all. Which makes this discussion pointless.

Yes, we should have some keplers and some Balanced frigates that's all I can respond.

I believe that builds of frigates compete with builds of cruisers and explorers, not of other frigates. Given that we've consistently expanded our berth capacity far beyond our ability to fill them*, the choice of what ship to build is about allocating ALL the resources, not just some hypothetical frigate budget. If we can't build "enough" Balanced Frigates, my proposal is that we should cut explorer and cruiser production, not Kepler production.

(*The one exception being after a large spate of battles, which is why we expanded our berth capacity so furiously in the first place so that we would have slack for such events.)
 
@OneirosTheWriter it's pretty important whether Lathriss is supposed to give an offensive doctrine bonus as well and it's just missing from the results post and will be fixed by next year, or his bonus has been retconned. Among other things it would influence the war game vote.

Also Spock didn't seem to get any inspiration roll (shouldn't matter unless we get another event bonus) and the bonus to Base Strike hasn't made it to the megapost (shouldn't matter for a good while).
 
I believe that builds of frigates compete with builds of cruisers and explorers, not of other frigates. Given that we've consistently expanded our berth capacity far beyond our ability to fill them*, the choice of what ship to build is about allocating ALL the resources, not just some hypothetical frigate budget. If we can't build "enough" Balanced Frigates, my proposal is that we should cut explorer and cruiser production, not Kepler production.

Lets open up the question then. What ratio of ships should we be aiming for?

For reference I separated the 2017 fleet into:

Task Force (GBZ)
Border Zones (CBZ/KBZ/RBZ/LBZ/SBZ)
Sectors (Sol/Vulcan/Andor/Tellar/Amarkia/Ferasa/Apinae)

Then all the ships into Capital (EC), Heavy Cruiser, Light Cruiser, Frigate before normalising ratio to a single heavy cruiser.

Type Weight Capital Heavy Cruiser Light Cruiser Frigate
Task Force 200%   1 4.5 6.0
Borderzone 80%   1 1.3 2.5
Sector 30%   1 2.5 3.0
 
Moving UP to cruiser design after their current project was the plan all along. Whether we can GT3 over or need them for frigate design depends on when we start the Centaur successor, if it's 2323 we will probably need them. Mobility focus also doesn't seem likely to be done before 2321, as of now Frontline Infrastructure, Dispersed Industry, Deep Space Construction and Frontier Service Training seem like higher priorities. Assuming no new teams it would be available in 2325, though if you want to advocate for a new team in one of the next few years that's fine. We need a shield team next year, a sensor team the year after, and another warp team sooner or later, but other than that we are pretty open. We might also get another cruiser team if we get one from a new member where we like their second specialization.

I am going to have to disagree with that as we need two teams to finish T3 cruiser sub frames in 10 years, which would be when we want the next cruiser to go into research. And mobility focus is key for shaving off enough time with generic team 3, and turning T2 Science into 1 year for UP thanks to its +2 to cruiser research, and it still helps by adding +1 to intercept raiding. Now we have not gotten the Orion team yet if we can vote on that before the snakepit and they have a cruiser team that would work.

What I am seeing is:

2319-2320
Mobility Focus
Frontline Infrastructure

2321-2322
Dispersed Industry
Frontier Service Training

2323-2324
Deep Space Construction
Independent Captains

2325-2326 (at this point only keep 1 team here and move the other to other research)
Hard Shell System

@Briefvoice for your 3 Excelsior-A build plan, is it possible to drop the Constellation-A for a 3rd Renaissance?
 
Making the job of designing an appearance for the Kepler a surprisingly crucial job!

We already have This and This. I'm fine with either.
I'm working on something too. It's kind of a blend of @aeqnai's saucer design with a Centaur-like nacelle layout. If we do end up with a module though, I may try some more Akira-styled pylons, so the module can fit between them.

(This is all still preliminary, lots of mesh tuning still to go)
Edit: also, no bridge yet, or indeed any other details, and likely poorly scaled against the Renaissance.
 
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I'm working on something too. It's kind of a blend of @aeqnai's saucer design with a Centaur-like nacelle layout. If we do end up with a module though, I may try some more Akira-styled pylons, so the module can fit between them.

(This is all still preliminary, lots of mesh tuning still to go)
Edit: also, no bridge yet, or indeed any other details, and likely poorly scaled against the Renaissance.

My first immediate thought is it needs to be a lot thicker. Remember, the Kepler is somewhere between a rich man's frigate and a poor man's cruiser. The weight of a Connie and many shared elements from a Rennie, adds up to something that's going to be veeeery wide and long, the slimmer it is. I'm not quite sure exactly where I'd go from there, but I'd thicken the saucer and make it larger overall, and consider moving the secondary hull off onto a different plane from it.

(I'd been thinking about this for a while for my own version, but I hadn't quite come to a final conclusion yet. Pushing the secondary hull under the saucer makes for a visually appealing ship, but one hard to distinguish from the Rennie if the secondary is too large relative the saucer.)
 
Yeah, I just wanted to avoid having a bare bow to the secondary hull, as you can't put a deflector there. My other idea is to put the shuttlebay there and do something else at the stern.

(Hope you don't mind me using your saucer shape; my original idea didn't really work)
 
Yeah, I just wanted to avoid having a bare bow to the secondary hull, as you can't put a deflector there. My other idea is to put the shuttlebay there and do something else at the stern.

(Hope you don't mind me using your saucer shape; my original idea didn't really work)
It's fine, really. For my own draft I was experimenting with putting the sensor dome there, and making it particularly large to reflect that big Ops suite.
 
Regarding size of production runs, keep in mind that Starfleet production capacity has exploded in the past decades. Consider the example of the Renaissance - we're well on our way to building over two dozen of them by 2325, a decade after the prototype finished.

However, this doesn't really impact the 'do we need a new heavy cruiser design' question, which revolves around "do we need much more than 15-20 of this class of ship, ever?"

So this is an interesting question, but as it stands right now, from a pure gameplay standpoint, we actually don't need a large production run for a new ship design. Because ship design and prototyping is in fact no longer a large investment due to:

a) huge increases in our pp and rp incomes
b) research teams pretty much available on demand (and if we don't have one available, purchase one, which would have other uses anyway)
c) prototype costs aren't that significant, and berth space for the prototype is extremely unlikely to be the blocker

Consider the example of a nominal garrison frigate that's simply a Centaur-A but 20sr cheaper and maybe a stat point increase or two (not completely sure this is possible, but should be close). Let's call this the Hippocentaur.

Research: Probably around 20pp to request the design. Research team may or may not be available, but taking into account that we might not need to purchase one, and if we do, it'll have other uses anyway, let's just say it'll cost another 10pp. So 30pp total. And with our rp budget plus the 30rp ship design bonus, rp is not a concern.

Prototype: This is a 80br 50sr 2yr ship, so the prototype costs an extra 40br 25sr and another 1yr of berth space. 40br 25sr is very generously worth about half of a Centaur-A. You just need to build two Hippocentaur instead of two Centaur-As to recoup the extra costs of that prototype. Berth space is hardly going to be an issue, and if it somehow is, 1kt berths are cheap, especially amortized over their expansive lifetimes.

Altogether? You don't need to build that many ships to justify this new Hippocentaur class, even if it's barely better than the Centaur-A. PP and RP-wise, it's a relative drop in the bucket. Resource-wise, you end up saving them after just two builds. And meanwhile, there might be a Centaur-B refit, but that's orthogonal to this, because you'd expect the Hippocentaur to be competitive with the refit, and you'd still have a possible refit for this new class later on at the piddling cost of 20pp or so.

Of course, this is a specific example, but the point is that under the current ship design cost structure, small incremental improvements and small intended production runs could still technically warrant a new ship class.

I can think of narrative reasons either way for why this state of affairs should or should not exist. For ex, there's supposed to be economies of scale and training costs and so forth... but on the other hand, most Starfleet pattern starships share a lot of components anyway and berth/crew training is likewise bound to be fairly similar across Starfleet. Star Trek canon Starfleet is riddled with ship classes, but on the other hand, TBG Federation/Starfleet is a much smaller affair.

Ultimately, I think Oneiros will have to make a decision on whether he wants to encourage this sort of thing, or to restructure the ship design costs.

edit: oops I meant 2yr ship, not 3yr ship
 
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I don't think it will be a Rennie successor, there is room in our doctrine for a heavy cruiser. Basically it will be the successor to the Excelsior-A role, but more efficient. Along those lines we should work out a plan for existing Excelsior-As, do they retire in 15ish years, or do we plan a Excelsior-B refit.

If that refit means they are more economical do we just build more Excelsior-As now and forget about a new Heavy Cruiser.
There is no way we are retiring the Excelsior line in 15 years. Stop building new ones once the Ambassador becomes generally available - probably. But those hulls are going to be seeing use for a long time to come.

Here's another proposal:

What are your thoughts on a hypothetical second Excelsior refit variant - a Kaldar-bis and general heavy cruiser counter?

This class, the Avandar-B, would cover a gap between the Renaissance and the Ambassador in the same way that the Constitution-B answered the Jaldun.

More on this later.
 
I am going to have to disagree with that as we need two teams to finish T3 cruiser sub frames in 10 years, which would be when we want the next cruiser to go into research. And mobility focus is key for shaving off enough time with generic team 3, and turning T2 Science into 1 year for UP thanks to its +2 to cruiser research, and it still helps by adding +1 to intercept raiding. Now we have not gotten the Orion team yet if we can vote on that before the snakepit and they have a cruiser team that would work.

What I am seeing is:

2319-2320
Mobility Focus
Frontline Infrastructure

2321-2322
Dispersed Industry
Frontier Service Training

2323-2324
Deep Space Construction
Independent Captains

2325-2326 (at this point only keep 1 team here and move the other to other research)
Hard Shell System
That wouldn't work because Projective Engineering won't level up before 2319 (exp counter has an editing mistake as skill 2 teams take 4 exp to level, not 3) and so still needs 3 years for the next project even with two boosts (and we won't be able to afford two boosts for accelerating a team by 1 year very often anyway, too many teams needing to be boosted, particularly not if we still want phaser arrays to complete in 2327 as that will take a lot of boosts).

It would also be weird to (hypothetically) prioritize a next gen cruiser over the Centaur successor, there is a much greater urgency and need for the latter. Granted, GT3 would only be useful for that if generic teams graduate to skill 2, we get an admiral bonus to frigate design from somewhere in the next two years or we are willing to swap them out in the last year.

I'm not saying that we shouldn't look at trying to complete the T3 subframes by 2327, just that I don't think we need to follow that exact plan and front-load the costs like that: Your timeline doesn't actually require Mobility Focus at all, you just need to switch T3 engineering and T2 science and let UP finish the latter in a single year by virtue of having leveled up in 2323. There is a 6.25% chance of generic team 3 needing a boost if Mobility Focus isn't completed before 2322, but that's all. And instead of GT3 it could be a new skill 2 team recruited as late as 2321 (that would require Mobility Focus to be completed before 2324 and possibly some boosts though).
 
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That wouldn't work because Projective Engineering won't level up before 2319 (exp counter has an editing mistake as skill 2 teams take 4 exp to level, not 3) and so still needs 3 years for the next project even with two boosts (and we won't be able to afford two boosts for accelerating a team by 1 year very often anyway, too many teams needing to be boosted, particularly not if we still want phaser arrays to complete in 2327 as that will take a lot of boosts).

It would also be weird to (hypothetically) prioritize a next gen cruiser over the Centaur successor, there is a much greater urgency and need for the latter. Granted, GT3 would only be useful for that if generic teams graduate to skill 2 or we get an admiral bonus to frigate design from somewhere in the next two years.

I'm not saying that we shouldn't look at trying to complete the T3 subframes by 2327, just that I don't think we need to follow that exact plan and front-load the costs like that: Your timeline doesn't actually require Mobility Focus at all, you just need to switch T3 engineering and T2 science and let UP finish the latter in a single year by virtue of having leveled up in 2323. There is a 6.25% chance of generic team 3 needing a boost if Mobility Focus isn't completed before 2322, but that's all. And instead of GT3 it could be a new skill 2 team recruited as late as 2321 (that would require Mobility Focus to be completed before 2324 and possibly some boosts though).
Well I am hoping the Orions will have a skill 3 cruiser team that will make thing easier. As for the next escort do we have a design that needs higher subframes?

I am hoping we can get some prelim designs for both the next escort and cruiser so we can figure out which parts need to be researched.
 
Well I am hoping the Orions will have a skill 3 cruiser team that will make thing easier. As for the next escort do we have a design that needs higher subframes?

I am hoping we can get some prelim designs for both the next escort and cruiser so we can figure out which parts need to be researched.
We don't have anything but very preliminary designs for anything. For one thing many of the available parts are not on the sheet yet. That you saw suggested designs using certain parts often doesn't mean the designs actually need those exact parts, just that it's a design meant for the future and those parts happened to be on the sheet already.
 
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So this is an interesting question, but as it stands right now, from a pure gameplay standpoint, we actually don't need a large production run for a new ship design. Because ship design and prototyping is in fact no longer a large investment due to [snip reasons]
You're totally right to analyze the problem this way, but I would like to point out... you kind of misunderstood my actual question.

What I was asking in the exact passage you quoted was more like "are we going to need more than 15-20 heavy cruisers, ever? Because if we can fill the 'big ship' role with Ambassadors nad the 'little ship' role with other, smaller vessels, and that winds up actually working out for us, then we just plain don't have much need for a new class. Even given that it's cheaper than building more Excelsior-As, it's not cheaper than "just keep the ships you already have."

Now, I respect and am increasingly coming to accept the argument that we are in fact going to need that many ships, enough that it's worth developing a new class that does broadly the same job in our fleet that Excelsior-A/B-class ships can already do. My point is that we actually do need to sit down and think through "Okay, 10-15 years from now we won't be using many Excelsiors in the Explorer Corps, which means unless we have a big war and lose a lot of them, we're going to have about twenty of the things in Starfleet service, so many that we can probably afford to just use those and Ambassadors for sector flagships... BUUUT we may want more than one heavy ship per sector, at which point we may need to build more heavy ships than we can afford to if all we build is Ambassadors, at which point we need a new heavy cruiser."

It's reasoning complex enough that it merits examination.
 
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