- Location
- Central Standard Time
This is one aspect that I feel is neglected in the SDB. It's alright to push for efficient, but we must also remember that everything must be refitted eventually.
To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)
- Thread starter OneirosTheWriter
- Start date
- Sci-Fi
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- Tags
- star trek exploration fully automated luxury gay space communism top level canon (canon) #hashtagcontent all-encompassing space amoeba cardassian boy bands cardassian magical girls darkest bureaucracy debate makes the qm cackle like palpatine hoh is an empire quest it has to be foreign infiltrators more ships ship happens singers delenda est starfleet this is not an empire quest ur waifu is collective?
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
For our existing frigate and cruiser designs, there's a strong incentive to squeeze because the one-megaton berths present a sharp constraint on ships' total size. Packing the maximum possible performance into a hull of fixed size, regardless of future refit potential, then becomes rather more tempting.
The Cardassians actually have a similar problem, arguably even more so than we do, because so many of their berths are 1.2-megaton facilities that are just exactly the right size to fit a Jaldun. They can't afford to 'go big' because only a fraction of their total berths are significantly larger than a Jaldun, and even those are bigger by a limited margin. By contrast, we have a LOT of explorer berths and have ample political support for building more if we need to, which means we are much more free to contemplate 'leapfrogging' the Cardassians in tonnage and starting a class of 1.5 or 1.8-megaton cruisers as our next generation cruiser design.
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That reminds me of the recent discussion of starting a new heavy cruiser design, along with the proposed new generalist frigate. Suppose the refits to the Jalduns* really do give them combat performance superior to the Renaissance as SWB predicts (he's projecting C5 S4 H5 L6 P4 D4 for the Jaldun-bis and C7 S3 H5 L6 P3 D5 for the Kaldar-bis). In that case, it becomes exceptionally desirable for us to counter the Jaldun-bis with our own heavy cruiser class that approximates the Kaldar-bis in performance.
Personally I think he may be overestimating the refit ships' performance, but I wouldn't want to bet the farm on it. I can see the logic- the Jaldun remains a generalist ship but considerably uparmored to double down on the advantage of durability the Jalduns already have relative to most Starfleet designs, while the Kaldar becomes a "pocket battleship" that is in effect a tougher version of the Lorgot. On the other hand, it begs the question of why the Cardassians are still building Lorgots at all, unless they have a refit version of THAT, too.
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*In pursuance with Warsaw Pact naming habits, I dub this class the Jaldun-bis.
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On a side note, I suspect that some of the extra tonnage of the Jalduns and Kaldars may go into things that don't affect naval combat performance. For example, large cargo bays that enable them to transport supplies as we've seen references to them doing. Or large ground troop contingents so that they can do 'pacification' and military occupation missions more effectively.
The Cardassians actually have a similar problem, arguably even more so than we do, because so many of their berths are 1.2-megaton facilities that are just exactly the right size to fit a Jaldun. They can't afford to 'go big' because only a fraction of their total berths are significantly larger than a Jaldun, and even those are bigger by a limited margin. By contrast, we have a LOT of explorer berths and have ample political support for building more if we need to, which means we are much more free to contemplate 'leapfrogging' the Cardassians in tonnage and starting a class of 1.5 or 1.8-megaton cruisers as our next generation cruiser design.
...
That reminds me of the recent discussion of starting a new heavy cruiser design, along with the proposed new generalist frigate. Suppose the refits to the Jalduns* really do give them combat performance superior to the Renaissance as SWB predicts (he's projecting C5 S4 H5 L6 P4 D4 for the Jaldun-bis and C7 S3 H5 L6 P3 D5 for the Kaldar-bis). In that case, it becomes exceptionally desirable for us to counter the Jaldun-bis with our own heavy cruiser class that approximates the Kaldar-bis in performance.
Personally I think he may be overestimating the refit ships' performance, but I wouldn't want to bet the farm on it. I can see the logic- the Jaldun remains a generalist ship but considerably uparmored to double down on the advantage of durability the Jalduns already have relative to most Starfleet designs, while the Kaldar becomes a "pocket battleship" that is in effect a tougher version of the Lorgot. On the other hand, it begs the question of why the Cardassians are still building Lorgots at all, unless they have a refit version of THAT, too.
___________
*In pursuance with Warsaw Pact naming habits, I dub this class the Jaldun-bis.
...
On a side note, I suspect that some of the extra tonnage of the Jalduns and Kaldars may go into things that don't affect naval combat performance. For example, large cargo bays that enable them to transport supplies as we've seen references to them doing. Or large ground troop contingents so that they can do 'pacification' and military occupation missions more effectively.
I do hope that the larger refit estimates are wrong - because if they are right we will find ourselves under immense pressure to produce a new cruiser line sooner than we have forecast which will throw a lot of our predictions far out of line.
The Renaissance is still considered a new design with only the first wave finished building - i don't want to start a successor class design already!
The Renaissance is still considered a new design with only the first wave finished building - i don't want to start a successor class design already!
- Location
- Australia
I don't think it will be a Rennie successor, there is room in our doctrine for a heavy cruiser. Basically it will be the successor to the Excelsior-A role, but more efficient. Along those lines we should work out a plan for existing Excelsior-As, do they retire in 15ish years, or do we plan a Excelsior-B refit.
If that refit means they are more economical do we just build more Excelsior-As now and forget about a new Heavy Cruiser.
Regardless of whichever direction we take I think we should add 2mt berths whenever possible so either option does not impact capital ship builds or the frigate/aux builds.
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There is no way we are retiring the Excelsior line in 15 years. Stop building new ones once the Ambassador becomes generally available - probably. But those hulls are going to be seeing use for a long time to come.
Forgothrax
Not Going Gently
- Pronouns
- He/Him
They have Combined Fleet iirc, so if there's more escorts than Lorgots they'll get +1L and +10% Evasion.
There is no reason to retire the Excelsiors. We have more of them than any other ship, and the main advantage of them is that many will begin to start gaining Blooded status soon. They are also built to last like our other Explorers (see the Cheron) and since canonically they last into the 2360s they should have a lot of life left in them. I'm gonna guess that based on their weight there's space for refit, too.
As far as a Rennie successor goes, the proposed heavy cruisers tend to be significantly more capable for only a very small additional cost. We'd be better off building the heavy cruiser instead of the Rennie.
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- Pronouns
- He/Him
Given that Rule The Waves is one of the inspirations for this quest...
The Excelsior was blessed by hull space that wasn't used. Phaser arrays could create a refit that will be about as good as the refit we just had. We'll see the Excelsior in use for about another 40 years.
In production, perhaps not, but in deployment? Long time.
e: On a side note we fortuitously blessed the Ambassador in the same way *wink*
In production, perhaps not, but in deployment? Long time.
e: On a side note we fortuitously blessed the Ambassador in the same way *wink*
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- Location
- Australia
I suspect so. Given the two most recent Excelsior Build Orders were NCC-2027 and NCC-2028... that's be a lot of hulls to try to replace!
Night
Widow Null
- Location
- Hoff
For those who don't know what that's about...well, let me sum up from a Rule The Waves thread.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Frankly, not enough to make any of us happy.
- Location
- USA
An Excelsior is about twice the Jaldun and half again a Kaldar so I would expect them to be able to refit more than a smaller ship. Honestly I am expecting +1 C, +1L and +1S or D with Kaldar likely picking up +1S as a command ship.
- Location
- Australia
Im of the opinion that we should not be taking cues off cannon-timeline as there is a lot of frankly illogical decisions there.
That said I do think the Excelsior hull can be pushed further with another refit, its more a question of if the Excelsior-B eventual existence means we should still be producing it instead of looking for a new Heavy Cruiser.
The Excelsior hull was originally launched 31 years ago (2287)
Excelsior [511m, 2.3mt]
C6 S5 H4 L5 P5 D6
Cost [230br 150sr, 4 years], Crew [O-6, E-5, T-5]
Stat Avg: 5.17
The A refit was available 5 years ago (2313)
Excelsior-A [511m, 2.3mt]
C7 S6 H4 L6 P6 D6
Cost [230br 160sr, 4 years], Crew [O-6, E-5, T-5]
Stat Avg: 5.83
Then we compare it against possible Heavy Cruiser competition
Enlightenment [1.54mt]
C7 S7 H5 L6 P7 D6
Cost [160br 115sr, 3 years], Crew [O-4, E-5, T-4]
Stat Avg: 6.33
The Stat avg places it exactly between a Renaissance (4.33) and an Ambassador (8.33). It uses a 18.7% less crew, and has a 35% lower cost/stat ratio then the Excelsior-A while increasing stats 8%.
For reference the Constitution-B to Renaissance switch was crew neutral, a 12% lower cost/stat ratio, and raised the stat average the same 12%.
I can't see any Excelsior-B refit that would make it logical to continue Excelsior production, even if we could produce B's right now.
Forgothrax
Not Going Gently
- Pronouns
- He/Him
That is correct, but the point would be to update the ones currently in service so they have modern stats and have Veterancy on top.
I thought you would appreciate the acknowledgement you saw it coming well in advance.So on the question of Excelsior replacements, what is the effective difference between a Light Explorer and a Heavy Cruiser? I mean, obviously one uses a cruiser frame and one an explorer frame, but in terms of bang for our buck?
Thebigpieman
I've got this, I think.
- Location
- United States
So Cardassian refits? Not exactly the best now is it? Well, things are about to get interesting.
My assumption - range capability and space allocated to P functions. The Explorer is more capable of running well away from replenishment sources and has better crew/diplomacy support areas.
This does mean, if equal masses, the cruiser is the better fighter.
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Nervos Belli
Don't think this means you've won!
- Location
- Murica
I guess one difference is that presumably a light explorer could be used for 5 year missions, although I'd personally prefer not.
There are recent designs accessible in the SDB thread, but generally, a light explorer will have considerably greater build time and SR cost, slightly less in crew costs, but have extended capabilities under doctrine (including the 1 per event restriction and 50% greater firing weight). A light explorer would also have somewhat more space, as the smallest hull we have is the 1800kt, while a cruiser can be built on the 1500kt. This extra hull is also the main cost of the considerable SR bump.
So are we talking about doing a Medium/Heavy Cruiser next instead of the (Ugh) 'Flower'? or are we waiting still?
Nervos Belli
Don't think this means you've won!
- Location
- Murica
My main issue with a medium-heavy cruiser is that we don't have many berths in the 1.5-2.5 mt range. We could use 3 mt but then we're competing with Ambassadors and any new Excelsiors. If we can commit to a few more berth expansions over the next couple years then I'd be more okay with if.
- Location
- USA
To me a Light Explorer are old Explorers no longer used for the EC, basically what the Excelsior will be after we get the Ambassadors rolling out. They are not something I feel like we should be building, instead just holding onto the existing ships and putting them through refits as they are very good ships still and we have already constructed them. Plus the ones covering sectors have a good chance of being blooded or better.
Heavy Cruiser is our newest cruiser, basically the Renaissance right now and is a production model ship. Light cruisers are like light explorers the previous model that is no longer in production but still useful.
Not really, the cruiser designs are using T3 sub frames and we have yet to research T2 for cruisers. That will be another decade of research before we can prototype and build the Renaissance replacement.