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- somewhere
In the current system only when the heavy forces are enough to win without taking significant hull damage and the skirmish ships have depleted shields and would be at risk.
To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)
- Thread starter OneirosTheWriter
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Looking at it, it depends on whether "the expectation" that "the skirmishers will be played out" is actually, factually true. If at the end of the vanguard phase, frigates usually have heavily depleted or breached shields, then withdrawing them from the battle arguably makes sense and helps cut down on frigate losses for the winning side... Although it also tends to concentrate losses aboard the capital ships, which is something of a handicap from the Federation's point of view, because capital ships tend to have larger crews per unit of "kick" they contribute to a battle.
If, empirically, skirmisher ships are not observed to be at low shields when the 'Heavy Metal' phase of combat begins, then it does not make sense to withdraw them from battle. It would be an interesting change of pace or modification if @OneirosTheWriter could replace existing rules on when ships are retired from battle with, say, a check to see if the ships are still at 33% Shield or 90% Hull or some other parameter.
If, empirically, skirmisher ships are not observed to be at low shields when the 'Heavy Metal' phase of combat begins, then it does not make sense to withdraw them from battle. It would be an interesting change of pace or modification if @OneirosTheWriter could replace existing rules on when ships are retired from battle with, say, a check to see if the ships are still at 33% Shield or 90% Hull or some other parameter.
Chance to fire is equal per-ship.
Keep in your pop-guns and your big cannons aren't shooting as often. Whether this becomes significant would depend on a complex comparison between hitpoints gained and damage lost.
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- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Hm.
The last time I understood how this rule works, a few iterations ago, the rule was "all ships participating are equally likely to shoot." What is the rule now?
Because if all ships are equally likely to shoot, I'm pretty sure adding more ships is beneficial; any reduction in your average damage output per shot fired by your fleet is offset by the increased number of shots fired and (relatively speaking) decreased number of shots fired by the enemy. I can algebra this out and will try to do so as soon as I post this.
If not all ships are equally likely to shoot, it might change the equation.
The last time I understood how this rule works, a few iterations ago, the rule was "all ships participating are equally likely to shoot." What is the rule now?
Because if all ships are equally likely to shoot, I'm pretty sure adding more ships is beneficial; any reduction in your average damage output per shot fired by your fleet is offset by the increased number of shots fired and (relatively speaking) decreased number of shots fired by the enemy. I can algebra this out and will try to do so as soon as I post this.
If not all ships are equally likely to shoot, it might change the equation.
Sorry, you're right, it should be per ship alone. But it's modified by the fleet score and more importantly by a significantly sticky targeting/weighting, so it's near impossible to predict.
- Location
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But that's compensated for by your side shooting more often. The ratio of "your big cannons shooting" : "the enemy shooting" should be unaffected by keeping your pop-guns firing (which crowds out both of those to an equal degree). Assume 3 big cannons, 6 enemies and 6 pop-guns. Pop-guns leave: Big cannons take 1/3 of all shots, the enemy 2/3. Pop-guns stay: Your side takes 3/5 of all shots, your big guns 1/3 of your shots, meaning 1/5 of all shots, the enemy 2/5 of all shots.
It's (probably) not actually per ship, it's first determining the side based on how many ships and fleet value bonuses, then determining the ship based on firing priority. Otherwise doctrines that raise firing priority for capitals would be very overpowered (unless they only give 1-2% bonus or something like that). Shifting shooting from your own pool to your capitals is valuable, shifting from all ships in the battle to your capitals is about the best sort of bonus imaginable.
Still, for whether extra ships contribute on balance it doesn't matter much.
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- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Suppose all ships are equally likely to shoot. The Federation fleet has M ships, the enemy fleet has N ships. All our ships are Combat 5 cruisers; all their ships are Combat 5 cruisers. Then we add an (M+1)th ship: a stereotypically puny vessel with a Combat score of 1.
Previously, our expected damage output on a round when we fire was 2.5 (the average of random 0-5 rolls). In a complete cycle of M+N turns, we will on average fire M times, so our total damage output is {(2.5*M)/(M+N)}, and theirs is {(2.5*N)/(M+N)}
Now, a complete cycle is (M+N+1) turns, we fire on (M+1) of them.
Now, our damage output per round is {[(2.5*M)+0.5]/(M+N+1)}, and theirs is (2.5*N)/(M+N+1). Both sides experience dilution of damage output. However, at the end of a full battle cycle (now M+N+1 turns) we have still inflicted 2.5M+0.5 damage, instead of 2.5M, and the enemy has inflicted the exact same 2.5N points of damage to us.
But all relevant factors (including shield regen) are calculated in terms of that which I am calling 'combat cycles.' Not in terms of damage per turn, since each turn is literally just one ship firing at another ship one time. Therefore, for purposes that matter, we gain a slight ascendancy in firepower over our enemy this way.
...
So as before, IF the extra boost in firepower is justified by the condition of the frigate, it is always advantageous for a skirmishing frigate to continue fighting throughout the battle. This may increase casualty rates on frigates, but it also increases overall fleet damage output relative to the enemy, reducing the risk to the fleet as a whole.
Previously, our expected damage output on a round when we fire was 2.5 (the average of random 0-5 rolls). In a complete cycle of M+N turns, we will on average fire M times, so our total damage output is {(2.5*M)/(M+N)}, and theirs is {(2.5*N)/(M+N)}
Now, a complete cycle is (M+N+1) turns, we fire on (M+1) of them.
Now, our damage output per round is {[(2.5*M)+0.5]/(M+N+1)}, and theirs is (2.5*N)/(M+N+1). Both sides experience dilution of damage output. However, at the end of a full battle cycle (now M+N+1 turns) we have still inflicted 2.5M+0.5 damage, instead of 2.5M, and the enemy has inflicted the exact same 2.5N points of damage to us.
But all relevant factors (including shield regen) are calculated in terms of that which I am calling 'combat cycles.' Not in terms of damage per turn, since each turn is literally just one ship firing at another ship one time. Therefore, for purposes that matter, we gain a slight ascendancy in firepower over our enemy this way.
...
So as before, IF the extra boost in firepower is justified by the condition of the frigate, it is always advantageous for a skirmishing frigate to continue fighting throughout the battle. This may increase casualty rates on frigates, but it also increases overall fleet damage output relative to the enemy, reducing the risk to the fleet as a whole.
Sounds like we should copy the Apiatas fleet doctrine...
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
I suspect that Apiata fleet doctrine may have what would be for us big downsides like "explorers shoot and are shot at less often." The latter might not be so bad for us, but the former would be crippling.
- Location
- somewhere
Preliminary research plan:
Computing:
[] [PLAN] Base Plan Re-balancing Analysis
-[] San Francisco Fleetyards : 2320s Starship Safety (assuming this also unlocks T3 SIF)
-[] Inid Uttar Institute : 2330s Anti-Cloaking Sensors
-[] Admiral Lathriss : Mutual Support
-[] Kuznetsova's Tiger Team : Klingon Research
-[] Technocracy Interstellar Ministry : Cardassian Research
The assignments of the foreign analysis teams can't really be extracted into a task because of the interdepencies, and also ties into the boost vote, so I hope no one requests multiple vote options because right now I don't know how to do that in any reasonable way. The reasons for suggesting this particular arrangement: We know that it can take a while for analysis research to become available, so we can't be sure to be able to start HoH research at this point. With a boost the Tiger Team can finish the first tier of Klingon Research this year (assuming overflow works tier-wise) and then probably start HoH research next year, finishing the first tier in 2320, while TIM would only finish in 2321 even if HoH research is already available this year. With this arrangement we also never pause Cardassian Research, which some people expressed reservations about. TIM should finish the current tier of Cardassian Research in 2327 or 28, 3-4 years later than the Tiger Team would if assigned to it now, but if we assign them as in the plan and then swap in the Tiger Team in 2321 they would finish in 2324, only one year later.
Not picking 2320s Lightweight Frames yet because the only T3 frames that seem interesting for new designs are the 600kt frame, which might be useful for a cheap Miranda successor but is too small for a Centaur successor which will likely be the next design, and the 1.5mt cruiser frame, but we probably won't design a cruiser before phaser arrays are finished. If there is interest I can factor that out into a task though.
[] [SHIELDS] Andorian Academy : 2320s Deflector Emitters
[] [SHIELDS] Andorian Academy : 2320s Deflector Shields
Technically 2320s Navigational Deflectors or 2320s Dish Construction would also be options, but I can't recommend them due to how relatively unimportant nav deflector parts are and the uncertainty about what those projects are even supposed to do.
The case for 2320s Deflector Shields: They offer a reasonably good event bonus, a moderate battle bonus (if that mechanic still exists) and most importantly unlock T3 shields. While we are most likely to start the next design in either 2319 or 2323 and by default AA would only finish the project in 2319 (with one boost), too late for the earlier date, deflector shields sometimes get event bonuses, especially from battles, so it might just finish in time for a 2319 design anyway (with a 10 point bonus to each tech from events). Or we might start a design in one of those in-between years for some reason.
The case for 2320s Deflector Emitters: Emitters offer a pretty good event bonus (far better than the one for 2320s Deflector Shields) and an SR discount for future shield parts. Emitters needs to be finished before T3 shields become available to be able to reduce their SR cost. 2320 Deflector Shields can still be finished in time for a 2323 design, just one of the following things needs to happen for that:
[] [DOCTRINE] Games & Theory Division : Base Strike Doctrine
[] [DOCTRINE] Games & Theory Division : Decisive Battle Doctrine
[] [STARBASE] Henn-Makad Engineering Institute : 2310s Starbase Design - Combat
[] [STARBASE] Henn-Makad Engineering Institute : 2310s Starbase Design - Repair
Recommended boosts: Tiger Team, Taves Nar, Generic Teams 2, 3, 4.
Holding off boosting the Weapons Fabrication Division because the battle in Q2 might give a bonus to penetrating nadions, and if not we still have two years to do the second planned boost in.
Computing:
- Daystrom Institute [Skill 5 Computing/Shields]: Automated Shipsystems [unchanged]
- Amash Hagan Research Office [Skill 3 Computing/Personal]: 2320s Research Centers [unchanged]
- Generic Team 4 : Primitive Isolinear Computers[unchanged]
- Yoyodyne [Skill 5 Warp Tech/Starship Construction] : 2320s Core Power [unchanged]
- Office of Naval Architecture [Skill 4 Fleet Design/Starship Construction]: 2320s Starship Armour [unchanged]
- San Francisco Fleetyards [Skill 4 Explorer Design/Starship Construction]: 2320s Construction Techniques [complete] -> 2320s Starship Safety (assuming this also unlocks T3 SIF)
- Caitian Frontier Police R&D [Skill 3 Personal/Communications] : 2310s Personal Protection [unchanged]
- Vulcan Science Academy [Skill 5 Xenopsychology/Sensors] : 2320s Geological Sensors [unchanged]
- Generic Team 1: 2310s Long -Range Sensors [unchanged]
- Inid Uttar Institute [Skill 3 Sensors / Propulsion] : [new] -> 2330s Anti-Cloaking Sensors
- Weapons Fabrication Division [Skill 4 Weapons/Starship Design]: 2320s Penetrating Nadions [unchanged]
- Starfleet Tactical Prograde Operations Team [Skill 2 Weapons/Offensive Doctrine] : 2310s Torpedo Development [unchanged]
- Generic Team 2: Primitive Phaser Arrays [unchanged]
- Andorian Academy [Skill 4 Shields/Communication]: 2310s Navigational Deflectors [complete] -> TASK SHIELDS
- Starfleet Science Academy [Skill 4 Computing/Communciation]: 2320s Decryption [unchanged]
- Federation Broadcast Service [Skill 4 Communication/Xenopsychology]: 2320s Long-Range Comms [unchanged]
- Generic Team 5: 2320s Signal Intercepts [unchanged]
- Tellar Prime Academy of Mineral Science [Skill 4 Minerals/Personal]: 2320s Special Refining [unchanged]
- All Pyllix Geological Institute [Skill 3 Minerals/Sensors]: 2310s Bulk Resources [unchanged]
- Spock [Skill 6 Xenopsychology/Sensors]: 2320s Diplomacy [unchanged]
- University of Betazed [Skill 4 Xenopsychology/Personal]: 2320s Affiliates Research [unchanged]
- Starfleet Medical Research Command [Skill 5 Medical/Personal]: 2320s Preventative Care [unchanged]
- Starfleet Infectious Diseases Institute [Skill 3 Medical] : 2320s Trauma Medicine [unchanged]
- Intazzi Team - Grand Hive R&D [Skill 3 Propulsion/Escort Design]: 2320s Fusion Power [unchanged]
- 40 Eridani A [Skill 4 Escort Design/Warp Tech]: Kepler Project [unchanged]
- Generic Team 3: 2310s Escort - Combat [unchanged]
- Utopia Planitia [Skill 6 Cruiser/Explorer Design]: 2320s Explorer - Science [unchanged]
- Taves Nar Orbital Engineering [Skill 3 Starbase Design/Starship Construction] : 2310s Starbase Design - Control [unchanged]
- Henn-Makad Engineering Institute [Skill 3 Starbase Design / Minerals] : [new] -> TASK STARBASE
- Admiral Lathriss [Skill 4 Fleet Design/Defensive] : Border World Focus [complete] -> Mutual Support
- Apinae Protective Engineering Bureau [Skill 2 Starbase/Defensive Doctrine] : To Boldly Go [unchanged]
- Games & Theory Division [Skill 4 Foreign Analysis/Offensive] : Cardassian Research [tier complete] -> TASK DOCTRINE
- Kuznetsova's Tiger Team [Skill 5 Fleet Design/Foreign Analysis] : The Mission Unending [complete] -> Klingon Research
- Technocracy Interstellar Ministry [Skill 3 Xenopsychology / Foreign Analysis] : [new] -> Cardassian Research
[] [PLAN] Base Plan Re-balancing Analysis
-[] San Francisco Fleetyards : 2320s Starship Safety (assuming this also unlocks T3 SIF)
-[] Inid Uttar Institute : 2330s Anti-Cloaking Sensors
-[] Admiral Lathriss : Mutual Support
-[] Kuznetsova's Tiger Team : Klingon Research
-[] Technocracy Interstellar Ministry : Cardassian Research
The assignments of the foreign analysis teams can't really be extracted into a task because of the interdepencies, and also ties into the boost vote, so I hope no one requests multiple vote options because right now I don't know how to do that in any reasonable way. The reasons for suggesting this particular arrangement: We know that it can take a while for analysis research to become available, so we can't be sure to be able to start HoH research at this point. With a boost the Tiger Team can finish the first tier of Klingon Research this year (assuming overflow works tier-wise) and then probably start HoH research next year, finishing the first tier in 2320, while TIM would only finish in 2321 even if HoH research is already available this year. With this arrangement we also never pause Cardassian Research, which some people expressed reservations about. TIM should finish the current tier of Cardassian Research in 2327 or 28, 3-4 years later than the Tiger Team would if assigned to it now, but if we assign them as in the plan and then swap in the Tiger Team in 2321 they would finish in 2324, only one year later.
Not picking 2320s Lightweight Frames yet because the only T3 frames that seem interesting for new designs are the 600kt frame, which might be useful for a cheap Miranda successor but is too small for a Centaur successor which will likely be the next design, and the 1.5mt cruiser frame, but we probably won't design a cruiser before phaser arrays are finished. If there is interest I can factor that out into a task though.
[] [SHIELDS] Andorian Academy : 2320s Deflector Emitters
[] [SHIELDS] Andorian Academy : 2320s Deflector Shields
Technically 2320s Navigational Deflectors or 2320s Dish Construction would also be options, but I can't recommend them due to how relatively unimportant nav deflector parts are and the uncertainty about what those projects are even supposed to do.
The case for 2320s Deflector Shields: They offer a reasonably good event bonus, a moderate battle bonus (if that mechanic still exists) and most importantly unlock T3 shields. While we are most likely to start the next design in either 2319 or 2323 and by default AA would only finish the project in 2319 (with one boost), too late for the earlier date, deflector shields sometimes get event bonuses, especially from battles, so it might just finish in time for a 2319 design anyway (with a 10 point bonus to each tech from events). Or we might start a design in one of those in-between years for some reason.
The case for 2320s Deflector Emitters: Emitters offer a pretty good event bonus (far better than the one for 2320s Deflector Shields) and an SR discount for future shield parts. Emitters needs to be finished before T3 shields become available to be able to reduce their SR cost. 2320 Deflector Shields can still be finished in time for a 2323 design, just one of the following things needs to happen for that:
- Inspiration to fall the right way this year (75% chance) and a boost.
- A new shields team next year - a good idea anyway because shields is the most important remaining research branch we only have one regular team for (along with warp tech if we don't count 40EA), 2-3 new teams per year should be manageable rp income wise.
- An event bonus of 5 points to each tech to 2320 Deflector Shields some time between now and 2322 (possibly also requiring a boost if it comes early and interacts badly with inspiration)
[] [DOCTRINE] Games & Theory Division : Base Strike Doctrine
[] [DOCTRINE] Games & Theory Division : Decisive Battle Doctrine
[] [STARBASE] Henn-Makad Engineering Institute : 2310s Starbase Design - Combat
[] [STARBASE] Henn-Makad Engineering Institute : 2310s Starbase Design - Repair
Recommended boosts: Tiger Team, Taves Nar, Generic Teams 2, 3, 4.
Holding off boosting the Weapons Fabrication Division because the battle in Q2 might give a bonus to penetrating nadions, and if not we still have two years to do the second planned boost in.
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You might want to take those X's out... we still have a technically open vote, and it'll only confuse the tallies.
- Location
- somewhere
It doesn't matter for NetTally ... but maybe the built-in one doesn't know about base plans yet, right.
- Location
- Australia
A slew of Research Post changes made as per bugs reported: Sci-Fi - To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest) | Page 14
Random Member
Gardener of Human Happiness
- Location
- Behind You
Drown our enemies in ships! Drown them in it!
@OneirosTheWriter - Quick question; the Starbase repair techs describe Starbases and Outposts as repair berths:
my question is does the berth capacity expanding techs in Starship Construction:
apply to them?
- Location
- Australia
@lbmaian @Nix
- Obar = 6a High
- Becarra (Honiani) = 6A
- Ucuta (Honiani) = 4a
- any other major or important Honiani worlds - Canun = 5B
- Akola (Orion) = -2c
- Duaba (Orion) = -3d Low
- Broken Chains (Orion) = -3b High
- any other major or important Orion worlds
- Hagelan (Vulcan) = -2B Low
- Kadann (Andorian) = -4B High
- Laudon (Rigellian) = 3a
- Abadan (Rigellian) = 2B
- Vidotti (Indorian) =-3e (nearer to Indoria)
- Thunti (Gaeni) = 0C
- Second Risa = 6b High
- Location
- Central Standard Time
I think that the three need to be rebalanced. Right now, all three Decisive Battle T3 slides are better than the T3s in Base Strike.
For the build time reduction alone, Arsenal of Liberty is perhaps the single best doctrine tech.
- Location
- Australia
No, you greedy monster
lbmaian
a thirsty squirrel
- Location
- USA
@OneirosTheWriter, almost all of the Doctrine slides are T2 somehow, pretty sure most of them should be T3 or 4.
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- Location
- somewhere
Hmmm. Regardless which one we use Taves Nar next year for and which one Henn-Makad this year, 2310s Starbase Design - Combat will finish in 2322, and 2310s Starbase Design - Repair will finish in 2324. That means we should assign Henn-Makad to the one where we care less about the successor tech (because the higher skill Taves Nar would automatically be available in the first possible year we could research the successor tech we care more about).
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
Wolf Pack doesn't appear to have any T3 or T4 techs, and you've put the other T4 techs down as T2.
The actual meat of the overhaul looks pretty great though.