To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)
- Thread starter OneirosTheWriter
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- star trek exploration fully automated luxury gay space communism top level canon (canon) #hashtagcontent all-encompassing space amoeba cardassian boy bands cardassian magical girls darkest bureaucracy debate makes the qm cackle like palpatine hoh is an empire quest it has to be foreign infiltrators more ships ship happens singers delenda est starfleet this is not an empire quest ur waifu is collective?
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The ISC were responsible for the President being elected. #truefax
Vebyast
Nascent Transhuman
We got the message about relations being cordial before that happened. I reject your assumption that game mechanics violate the narrative to such a degree. It would be absolutely fucking nonsensical for us to get mechanical messages predicting the course of future events like that.
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To be honest, i read this as Sabek picking up that there was an anti-pirate op in his vicinity and deciding that it would be a grand idea to improve relations if he helped the ISC with sniffing those criminals out and then helping with the fight. The Admiral even noted that he thought Sabek was going mad. It isn't like the ISC asked him to bring Courageous in to help fight pirates, he offered.
If anything, this is an example of Sabek behaving like a Klingon, not the ISC.
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I agree with you and think that matches what I was saying? Relations started at "Cordial" and then we blew up some pirates together and it got upgraded to "a positive impression". I guess it depends on whether you view "cordial" as being "really warmed up to".... which I don't.
Vebyast
Nascent Transhuman
Why are we even treating them being happy about blowing up pirates together as a bad thing? If the ISC had helped the UFP blow up pirates that'd been killing UFP citizens, going so far as to take damage while doing so, do you think that we'd be happy that they shared our commitment to protecting the citizens?
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- Location
- Australia
It wasn't nearly so much a Klingon-esque sentiment. Rather an appreciation that Courageous was willing to put skin into protection of the commons and put that trust in the ISC forces. Was it their typical means of diplomacy? Certainly not, but there were pirates and that was the opportunity on offer.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Math teacher hat... ON!
The last time I checked, 25999 minus 25856 wasn't less than fifty.
...
In other words, our relations with the ISC were "Cordial" five months before the antipiracy operation. This strongly suggests that the ISC had in fact 'relaxed around Courageous' prior to that time. Again, five months beforehand. This is plainly supported by the months of the logs: 2315Q4.M3 and 2316Q2.M2. That's December and May, not "less than 50 days." And even if you argue that the difference between 50 days and 150 days is irrelevant, our good relations with the ISC certainly didn't start after the antipiracy operation, the way you originally claimed.
Briefvoice, you made a factual mistake about the sequence of events here. You placed cause and effect in the wrong order, and you subtracted 856 from 999 and got (I infer) 43. I have seen the latter mistake before, by the way; it can happen to nearly anyone, and I know it well.
However, these errors of fact have led you down a trail of false conclusions. Now, I am seeing rationalizations made to support the false conclusion, after the error of fact has been identified and pointed out.
I am not saying this out of hostility. As far as I can tell, this really is what's happening.
No, you totally should. We have enough problems and enemies in this game without having the playerbase randomly start forming negative impressions of neutral or friendly factions. Such as the ISC.
I would like to remind everyone that the ISC is our only major neighbor that never has threatened, and is not now threatening, any Federation-aligned person, place, or thing.
The Klingons have attacked us before, as have the Romulans and Cardassians. The Ferengi have harassed the Kadeshi fleet for personal gain. The Harmony of Horizon has already tried to attack a ship belonging to one of our affiliates, and failed only because one of our explorers defeated it in a pitched battle.
The ISC? They've never so much as laid a finger on us.
So again, we should not be damaging our own strategic posture by forming negative impressions of them at this time.
Certainly, we shouldn't have these negative impressions spreading purely because someone dropped the hundreds place in a subtraction problem, and then attributed an effect that happened 'before' to a cause that happened 'after.' *
So sticking up for the facts here is totally justified.
_____________________
*I mean, don't get me wrong, it's Star Trek. But so far, it's the Enterprises that get caught in time warps, not Courageous...
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I guess you're right. I don't know why this has blown up so much. All some of us were saying was to treat the ISC with due skepticism and not assume that they are natural allies. The "they liked us after we fought together' was more in the nature of a 'funny observation' than serious argument.
And yet... being contradicted has left me with a burning hatred of the ISC that will take real life weeks to go away and poison every vote regarding them as long as it endures. (Rages futilely and claws at sides of cage.)
But also, it goes back to the ISC being rather boring and me wishing that the three posters who had created them had made them less nice and more troublesome. And I said that at the time they were introduced, so that's not the burning hatred talking. What's the point of a Major Power that's friendly from first contact? It's like scoring high on a test when someone passed you all the answers... not much good from a gameplay perspective.
That's a bad thing! I mean, good in universe but bad out of universe. I request reasons to distrust them!
- Location
- Australia
Kolar
Is Not A Robot
I know its not what you mean, but from an in-universe perspective I see this as you saying "What's the point of the Federation?" You know, the guys who always try to be friendly from first contact.
I don't see why all the other Major Powers have to be dicks to start. Its unrealistic.
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Look either you recognize the Federation as the memetic, contagious hegemonic swarm entity that it is and go to war or you are subsumed by the Federation there is no third option
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
That seems frightfully unfair to me.
I've had much nastier things said to me about my alleged mistakes in this thread than "you did a subtraction problem wrong, and attributed a prior effect to a subsequent cause." I've had nastier things said to me by a number of people. Should I feel burning hatred of them?
Or were you joking?
The ISC is not intrinsically 'boring.' At the moment it is underdeveloped, which stands to reason since it's an original construct that we've only encountered, briefly, on two occasions. More creativity solves that.
The problem isn't that they aren't hostile enough. The problem is that we interact with them only once a year or so, on a limited level. I can think of a variety of ways that having a friendly major power that nevertheless has its own interests and priorities could become very interesting indeed.
More creativity can make this good. But the first step is, quite obviously, to stop poisoning the well. If we as a thread berate and badmouth the ISC every time it is so much as discussed, and especially if we do so for petty or misguided reasons, then you can be damn sure a lot fewer interesting things will happen regarding the ISC. And that's not the fault of the ISC, or of the people who created the idea.
I mean, what would have happened in this thread as a whole if every time the Cardassians or the Orions or the Sydraxians or the Licori had been mentioned? If someone had gone "fuck them, they are boring and stupid and I hate them?" If this had escalated to dogpiling behavior, as it sometimes does?
There'd be omakes that would have never gotten written. There'd be ideas, stories, conversations, speculations we'd never have had. Because who wants to write stories or create content related to a thing that gets spat on every time it sticks its head up?
If we can't agree to stop dumping on things long enough to actually learn what they are, we're never going to have good things.
UbeOne
Daydreaming CPU
- Location
- Philippines
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- She/Her
<sarcasm>Thank you for shooing away an eager contributor (@Godwinson) to the game.</sarcasm>
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- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Well, it's like I said. If we lack the self-discipline to abstain from aggressively dumping on new ideas, we don't deserve to have nice things.
- Location
- Illinois
"They might be evil!"
"I hate that they're not evil!"
Guys, I found a space whale, it desires more conflict and halping.
More seriously? I would expect you to think about all the ways conflict could occur. Seems to me they're paranoid and traumatized or somesuch? Ok, remember our reaction to Arcadia? Suppose something goes a little wrong at one of our facilities. We're not the Arcadians, but the ISC isn't us.
I think you're assuming too much, blaming too much, and considering too little. I can imagine all kinds of flashpoints that could sour relations -- remember their reaction to us having fucking torpedoes?
Do I think we'll end up at war with them? Who knows. Do I think there will be conflict? Yes. For one thing they can't possibly be trusting us already, they might eventually try to infiltrate Fed high command or something to double check. That doesn't seem outside their shtick.
Clearly your reading is very different from mine. I see a traumatized and possibly threatened sort of beast. You see, what, idefk.
lbmaian
a thirsty squirrel
- Location
- USA
...didn't we already have a full paranoia-out in the thread when the ISC was first revealed? -_-
Well that's a pity. Member yards, I expected no effect on, but auxiliary yards I'm surprised - that disincentives expanding/building auxiliary yards in lieu of just expanding/building standard shipyards.
If this info is in private conv, can you please quote it into this thread for confirmation?
Well that's a pity. Member yards, I expected no effect on, but auxiliary yards I'm surprised - that disincentives expanding/building auxiliary yards in lieu of just expanding/building standard shipyards.
If this info is in private conv, can you please quote it into this thread for confirmation?
As the size of the federation increases its circumference will as well and thus also the number of neighbours. Having a sort of inert neighbours that isnt an attention demanding crisis factory is suddenly pretty nice when you consider that.
A peaceful but isolationist neighbour is also the best barrier to expansion there is for the federation.
Okay that? That is the first thing that has me actually worried about the ISC. Because these lines:
Tell me I'm the only one
Tell me there's no other one
Jesus was an only son
Tell me I'm the chosen one
Jesus was an only son for you
would only fit too well. That's how i imagine a civilisation would feel if it had continuously been dumped on by the universe, while holding themselves to a higher standard. A Feeling of manifest destiny, that all this suffering has made them special.
I think it is all very exiting. Dunno how people feel the ISC is boring. Personally i can't wait to see our next interaction with them. I wanna see what happens next, which of us is right!
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- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Personally, I see a traumatized creature that just doesn't know how to react to kindness or generosity.
They are likely to do things that seem irrational to us, out of sheer hypervigilance and the habits instilled by intergenerational trauma. Some of those irrational acts may harm us somehow. On the other hand, some of them may be neutral or even beneficial to us.
I'm reminded of the Alliance from the Lost Fleet series, which has been at war for a hundred years, and whose culture and politics really show it. The protagonist is a character who missed 99.99% of the war in cryogenic suspension, so it's very striking to him just how much the society he's dealing with has been warped by those pressures. But despite that, the Alliance is not a "bad guy" polity, and the dumb things their political and social trauma makes them do tend to be self-inflicted wounds rather than random lashing out at outsiders.
Going to drop my participation in the ISC discussion for now as I feel like I've said my piece, and there's no actual decision under debate. Time will tell.
- Location
- alphen aan den rijn
while i am all for keeping an eye out for them.
i feel in no way a treat from them
the cardasians could pop into full blown war any time now
the romulans and klingons busy with themselfs but still a treat too be careful of
harmony being very agro and personally think might be a bigger treat most think it is but willing to wait things out
i feel in no way a treat from them
the cardasians could pop into full blown war any time now
the romulans and klingons busy with themselfs but still a treat too be careful of
harmony being very agro and personally think might be a bigger treat most think it is but willing to wait things out
Omake - Walking on Eggshells - Iron Wolf
Anyways did someone say Gorn??????
Walking on Eggshells
Gornar, Imperial Year 10,892
Ashtarr cleared his throat and stepped out into the light. "Why, my favorite Princess!" He called, taking off his feathered hat and bowing low, "I apologize to interrupt what is no doubt a lovely walk, but if I could have but a moment of your time, your highness."
The Princess stopped and half turned to look at him, her tongue flicking out. The guards raised their heavy heads and sniffed, sunlight glittering into his eyes off what seemed every part of them: the silvery hexagon-patterned eyeshields they wore, the polished surfaces of their armor, the suddenly-exposed ivory daggers of their teeth, the engraved barrels of their ready-held rifles. Saphorix narrowed her eyes as she gazed down her snout at him and let out a small, ladylike huff of annoyance. But eventually she relented, "Come here and tell me what it is that brings you to interrupt me, Ashtarr. And be quick about it."
Ashtarr clapped his hands together in delight, boots clicking smartly on the tile as he strode by the two Royal Guards. He couldn't see their eyes, but he imagined they followed his every step. He bowed again in front of the Princess, and she reached out languidly so that he could plant a kiss on the jewelry of her office. As he bent low, he could see her guards had hands on the hilts of their sabers.
"Ss'trano, Horssh," Ashtarr said to the two guards flanking the Princess. They regarded him coolly, bodies still poised for violence, and made no response. "Am I so unwanted," Ashtarr said as he straightened, his voice level and patient, "That your guards should treat me with such unconcealed hostility?" He put a hand on the rich, layered fabric that covered his chest, "I am wounded that our friendship should proceed as thus."
"Spare me, Ashtarr." Saphorix said primly, "The time for courtly activities is over, and I am set to retire for the evening. Yet you, hardly a friend of mine, slink up to me as I make my evening walk, and feign ignorance and hurt at the actions of my loyal guard despite acting like a thief below your station. Your family is new to the ranks of the nobility, I know, but even you must be aware these acts are suspect."
"I see." Ashtarr said, contemplating a moment, "I see. I apologize for any perceived intrusion; it is our lack of friendship, which I must admit pains me, that causes me to act in such a seemingly-deceitful manner. I have things to discuss with you away from the court, but it would be suspicious if I were to attempt to draw you away from your various attendants and hangers-on; as we are not friends I could not merely entreat you to a private meeting. So I am forced to such crude methods as these."
Saphorix sighed, folding her hands out of sight underneath the gold-and-silver thread of her robes, "Speak then, and be quick about it if you wish to use up more of my valuable time. I have supper waiting for me, and you will not receive a pleasant reception at court to-morrow if I am to find it cold."
Ashtarr bowed his head in appreciation, his air of jovality undamaged by the cold stares of Saphorix's guards or her unsubtle threats, "Princess, let me speak plainly then. I desire a ship, one with long range, with which to seek out the Federation. As the Princess in charge of Foreign Affairs, and a wonderfully accomplished one at that, I am sure you find it in your power and interest to divert some moderate resources my way, and provide me with the proper permits and such things."
"The Federation?" Saphorix said questioningly, her tone light and dismissive, "What is so pressing about a power so distant that would warrant such an expedition?"
"My Princess," Ashtarr said, the picture of deference, "As you pointed out so succinctly earlier, my family is new to the nobility. There are many who look down on a young nobleman of eighty years such as myself whose late father bought nobility. My finances are in good shape from my good father's work, but I remain poor in prestige, despite the labours he undertook to earn the favor of the court. Such a contact with a people who we have been so distant from would propel my star high, and bring accolades upon my you as my sponsor."
"Their affairs are not ours, their concerns none of ours." Saphorix replied, her tone lecturing, "And while it is true they squat on worlds that are ours by rights of the old Empire, my husband and your future King have not seen it fit to send regards their way." She turned, swirling the jeweled hem of her robe along the ground as if to sweep him away, "I see no benefit either; and so I say good-eve."
Ashtarr let her walk three paces before he spoke. "My Princess, I implore you, we have not seen all the wonders the Federation has to offer!" He said, his voice dropping low as he continued, "Including, perhaps, the solution to the problem of thin eggs."
The Princess stopped dead in her tracks. There was a flash in the light and her bodyguard, Ss'trano, had his sabre drawn, pressed to the scales under Ashtarr's neck. One flick, Ashtarr knew, and his head would be separated from his shoulders. His heart was light and full of joy despite the danger, and his eyes twinkled with joviality as the Royal Guards started in surprise, and then quickly shouldered their rifles.
Saphorix turned slowly, her eyes cold, cold enough that one could believe a blizzard could be summoned on the spot, "To speak of such things," she said, her voice harsh, "To even suggest them of a Princess! I have all rights by law to have your head removed this instant, and cast its visage over into the sea, where the sea-dragons can eat your slandering tongue."
"Your Highness," Ashtarr said, his arms raised to his head, palms outward in a sign of non-hostility, "You speak of slander; but I speak no such thing. Actions here today prove to me what I say is true. I beseech you to hear me."
"Actions? My actions are those of any woman accused of bringing weak eggs into this world. Perhaps you should spend more time at court rather than in your books, and learn to read the movements of people rather than celestial bodies."
"True, true, you well put on the countenance of a Princess scandalized. But the methods used to study the movements of Gornar, those patient, careful observations and experiments, apply just as well to the movement of Gorn. It is by such movements your man here," He nodded carefully at Ss'trano, "Undoes your defense. He is, of course, your most loyal of guards, known to be quick to defend your honor and name. But see how he reacts even before the Royal Guardsmen at such an insult, the anger in his eye, as if it is not a lie but a dangerous truth that must be silenced. The paradox of it! If only he were less loyal, he might have removed my head in an instant and ended this sordid mess, but he hesitated for your command. Were he less admirably devoted, he might not have acted at all, and it would be all the easier to deflect the energy of my accusations off your shields."
"Pretty words for a dead man." Ss'trano growled in response. He glanced back at Saphorix and reared slightly in surprise, finding not the expression of a woman scorned, but the countenance of a woman deep in consideration.
After a moment, she responded, "The truth is a dangerous and changing thing, much like the bog-sands of the swamps. When you think you stand on firm ground with it, you find you may be swallowed whole. Even if what you speak is true, what benefit do you get by such blackmail? You reach too far with this mad gamble to get a ship, merely giving me cause to end you and be done with it; my status in court thus secure from any sort of truth or lies that might spill forth from you."
"Ah, but there is the problem, my Princess. Your position in court is not assured." Ashtarr's gaze lowered slightly as he pushed the tip of Ss'trano's saber aside and stepped ever so slightly forward, "It is a shame. As I have stated before, my benefit is the prestige of returning from an expedition, treasure filling my holds and knowledge filling the databanks to be presented to the King, the navigation of such a far distance worthy of accolades in itself. Great deeds is all I have to provide to the court and the King to raise my standing, which due to my background is currently quite low indeed. But even though my standing is low compared to yours, and you have prestige in hand from the greatness of your family lineage, more earned from your deft maneuvering in keeping us from being entangled in costly war, I find myself considering myself in greater Fortune than you. For there is something else you must deliver that I am not expected to, or even capable of! That something, of course, is children. Strong, healthy heirs to the throne for your husband, our great and beautiful Crown Prince. And, no matter how many servants you blame for incompetence in the incubator, and then execute to silence, eventually your husband will know your shame, and plant his favor on someone no doubt less capable than yourself. Because this hypothetical 'she' can bring the glories of S'Yahazah, which I am sad to know matters more than any war prevented or possibly even won."
Saphorix's eyes were no longer a winter-cold, but hot enough to propel a ship to warp, "If this is an effort to spare yourself you do a poor job, Sir." Her voice was rough and angry.
Ashtarr lowered his head slightly in apology, "I am sorry if it seems I insult you. But such harsh truths, as you said, have the capacity to wound. I admire you greatly, and this is no empty flattery. You have served capably and admirably as the head of the Collegiate of Foreign Affairs, and have steered thus with keen and clear eye. But the King looks inward, and this must frustrate you as it frustrates me. I hear whispers of war on the lips of traders, of the Federation and the Orions and other green-skins at war, of the Federation and grey-skinned reptilian brothers locked in a deadly dance, of their marriage to our long-slaved Rigellian sisters. The Klingons and Romulans are already at blows and threaten to drag us in -- should we wait for a distant Power to reach us and do the same? To learn all of this would no doubt benefit you, raise your star and mine. But, more to the point of the heated matter in our discussion: the Orions are masters of biology. Superior to us, even before the Empire fell; certainly so afterwards. If there is any who has a cure for your affliction, it is them. So my mission would be twofold -- the obvious being that of a long-range expedition to learn what is happening in the broad galaxy, the less obvious, the covert one, being the contact of the Orions and the procurement of some elixir by which to propel the star of your wifely duties higher as well."
Saphorix gazed at him a long time, Ss'trano glancing from her face to Ashtarr's, sword still raised. The sun sank lower, adding purple to the pallette of colors reflecting off the walls and columns, and matching the rich color of Ashtarr's cravate.
With a wave she finally relented. "Very well," she said. She glanced significantly at Ss'trano and he grudgingly sheathed his sabre, his eyes already searching, Ashtarr suspected, for any wrong movement to bring it forth once more. Ss'trano started as Saphorix continued, "I will grant you a ship, offer you a government stipend to help cover your costs gather those 'permits and such'. But Ss'trano will go with you on this expedition."
Ss'trano was then as unmoving as a statue, his voice similarly stiff, "Your highness. My place is by your side. I have acted too swiftly here today, but I do not see why I am punished to be so far from your radiance?"
Saphorix's expression softened, and she reached out with one hand to pat the tight-held cheek of her loyal guard, "Punishment? No! no, not a punishment." She shook her head violently from side to side, her speech earnest and quick, "I send you only because I trust you the most. You will make sure Ashtarr here follows through on his word, and makes every effort to deliver what he has promised me. And if not, you will have the privilege of ending him and bringing peace to my mind."
"If I may ask," Ashtarr interjected, "Is this to be the same end condition as if it were to be determined to be impossible to cure your unfortunate affliction?"
"I will leave that to Ss'trano to decide." Saphorix replied.
Ashtarr gave the man a placid glance as he shot murder back, "Well, I will endeavour to make him a life-long friend during the voyage, so that in case of such a failure he at least hesitates before removing my head, and feels remorse long afterward." Ashtarr said, nodding his head and flicking his tongue in amusement. Ss'trano said nothing in response, but his eyes lowered and crawled along the scales of Ashtarr's neck, before he looked back up and gave him a nasty grin. It was replaced with a look of confusion when Ashtarr responded with a hearty guffaw.
"Enough wasted chatter, you are to go at once with him." Saphorix said, "I will have arrangements sorted at dinner. You two will await my instructions for departure to-morrow. And with that I bid you night, Ashtarr. Not good-night, for you have not yet earned that superlative." She turned, flicking the folds of her robe harshly.
"Ss'trano!" Ashtarr said, throwing an arm around the smaller male, ignoring his glance back as Ashtarr dragged him away from his Princess, "I had a splendid evening planned for myself already, and my heart is so lifted by your loyalty to such a splendorous woman that I can say with no ill-will or deception that I am glad to have you along. Tell me, do you play cards? I am a fiend in the casino, I must admit."
Ss'trano just replied with a hiss of displeasure.
"Absolutely capital!"[thanks @Leila Hann ! ]
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