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Really? I'd think hawks.
To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)
- Thread starter OneirosTheWriter
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- star trek exploration fully automated luxury gay space communism top level canon (canon) #hashtagcontent all-encompassing space amoeba cardassian boy bands cardassian magical girls darkest bureaucracy debate makes the qm cackle like palpatine hoh is an empire quest it has to be foreign infiltrators more ships ship happens singers delenda est starfleet this is not an empire quest ur waifu is collective?
Really? I'd think hawks.
I'm sensing a retcon was made between when that entry was made and now.
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Could be a Terra/Earth/Sol III thing.I'm sensing a retcon was made between when that entry was made and now.
The Reds/Hawks are, ironically, in the middle of being violently purged.
Temporal Cold War...
Do not give weapons to Pre-Warp civilizations!
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- Patriarchova
And from a morale/ethic standpoint I don't think the Federation has that much of an leg to stand on that debate. In the pursuit of its prime-directive it is happy to let entire worlds die as long as it means they are not "polluted" by outside interference and as I said they seem more than happy to forgoe any ethical problems as soon it becomes politically expedient. (Then there is the fact that their time-travel agency thing is in some way guilty of far worse things considering they seem happy to let pretty much anything happen as long as it means that they precious timeline is kept safe. (though you could also use that as reason to say that Star Trek is a deterministic universe which would makes this debate even more interesting
Its been established that in this quest, we follow the reasonable, TOS era prime directive, not the batshit TNG one. We do intervene to save pre-warp species from natural disasters and the like. We've had captains logs to that effect.
We've also had captain's logs that specify that the Prime Directive stops applying the moment other warp species are meddling.
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- Mid-Atlantic
So... I'm picturing Sydraxians as (and this is somewhat inaccurate) Starship Troopers with musical accompaniment, and occasional (or not-so-occasional) legislative rap battles. Cool.
Set counter to that, Kirk and his era Enterprise saved at least one pre-warp civilization from a world-ending asteroid threat, and in fact Spock was willing to risk the ship to do so. Picard decided on multiple occasions to act in order to save a pre-warp civilization from a major threat- even if he also went around doing memory-wipes and so on to make sure that no one from the pre-warp society knew what had happened- and while there's no evid...
...ENCE that Picard did what Starfleet considered 'the official right thing,' he also didn't get relieved of command or otherwise seriously punished.
"...17822 was a very interesting year on Ferenginar. In that year alone, over twenty thousand Grand Nagi held office; the Ferengi Financial Exchange crashed 3152 times, while setting 12322 record highs; there were 41098 civil wars; an unknown number of Ferengi-incited interstellar wars (estimates are in the millions); and the Ferengi sun went nova at least once a week."
"In other words, 17822 was the year Ferenginar discovered time travel."
That is not the way you want your society to be. If there is ANYTHING that an advanced civilization is fully, 100% justified in NOT using to 'improve things,' and to use ONLY to protect its own causal past... it's time travel.
"In fairness, the Klingons had already passed out guns to the lowland towns in that part of the continent before Kirk gave them to the hillfolk. The horse had been stolen; locking the barn door wasn't going to accomplish much. Because..."
[Jerks thumb SWBward]
"What he said."
Why do you say that?
AH. I see. You're taking all those TNG/VOY era episodes where the team uses the Prime Directive as a way to create horrible drama by having their chosen soapbox character righteously make unethical decisions.
Set counter to that, Kirk and his era Enterprise saved at least one pre-warp civilization from a world-ending asteroid threat, and in fact Spock was willing to risk the ship to do so. Picard decided on multiple occasions to act in order to save a pre-warp civilization from a major threat- even if he also went around doing memory-wipes and so on to make sure that no one from the pre-warp society knew what had happened- and while there's no evid...
...ENCE that Picard did what Starfleet considered 'the official right thing,' he also didn't get relieved of command or otherwise seriously punished.
NOBODY wins a time war fought to "make history better" by changing bad things that happened in the past. The result isn't "fix history," the result is "universal temporal chaos."
"...17822 was a very interesting year on Ferenginar. In that year alone, over twenty thousand Grand Nagi held office; the Ferengi Financial Exchange crashed 3152 times, while setting 12322 record highs; there were 41098 civil wars; an unknown number of Ferengi-incited interstellar wars (estimates are in the millions); and the Ferengi sun went nova at least once a week."
"In other words, 17822 was the year Ferenginar discovered time travel."
That is not the way you want your society to be. If there is ANYTHING that an advanced civilization is fully, 100% justified in NOT using to 'improve things,' and to use ONLY to protect its own causal past... it's time travel.
Leslie:
"In fairness, the Klingons had already passed out guns to the lowland towns in that part of the continent before Kirk gave them to the hillfolk. The horse had been stolen; locking the barn door wasn't going to accomplish much. Because..."
Leslie:
[Jerks thumb SWBward]
"What he said."
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Well, the Yellows sound closest to Development & Merchantile.
The Reds/Hawks/Expansionists are being violently purged.
And I don't see the Sydraxians as Pacifistic.
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- Central Standard Time
Rename Suggestion: Dipp L. Mat. (His middle name is Lai)
Do we need to have T'Lorel come over? I think there's a Biophage infestation in your room. We can tell since it keeps eating your posts.
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- Mid-Atlantic
Nope. It's tribbles. You can tell because tribbles only eat PART of a post. Biophage eats the whole damn thing, then hijacks your account and starts posting in that creepy font with all the weird squiggles and stuff.
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- somewhere
So basically this, just with the Sky Marshal being the rule rather than the exception?
Honestly, our hands are probably tied RE: the Pre-Warp/Hishmiri conflict.
While I agree it'd be morally good to go save the Pre-Warp civ, we've got practical concerns RE: our ship numbers. I'm not really concerned about if we stand up to the Hishmiri they might join with the Cardassians -- it doesn't seem very Trek to sit back because someone else might get mad, although that does happen.
However, it's important to remember that we're not at a level of power matching the Culture in its respective universe. We don't have a fleet of ROUs sitting around ready to annihilate entire enemy armadas. We are, in fact, streched very, very thin. An attempt to stand up to the Hishmiri in neutral space would certainly require getting the Seyek and Quolathi onboard to assist us, and would probably mean some or all of those Reniassences we have earmarked for the GBZ would need to be put in Ferasa sector. Then comes the question of what to do -- make the planet a protectorate? Keep a force of like 40C ready near it at all times? Or say "they're gone now, good luck, bye and try to forget this"?
I know I want to get the Atuin, the Endurance, two Rennies, and two Mirandas, find an Audacious and a pair of Constrictors and whatever the Quolathi can pull together and kick the Hishmiri away, hopefully without having to resort to direct violence.
Doing some of this would not doubt require the approval of the President. And N'Gir is development, by definition inward-looking. She's probably not willing to risk a significant amount of Starfleet lives that protect the planets of the Federation just to drive off the Hishmiri and be handed a very thorny political issue.
We simply don't have the ships to be playing Quadrant Policeman. Not if we don't want to lose ground in the GBZ, and doing that would mean the Cardassians could strengthen up to be the Quadrant polity-eater.
While I agree it'd be morally good to go save the Pre-Warp civ, we've got practical concerns RE: our ship numbers. I'm not really concerned about if we stand up to the Hishmiri they might join with the Cardassians -- it doesn't seem very Trek to sit back because someone else might get mad, although that does happen.
However, it's important to remember that we're not at a level of power matching the Culture in its respective universe. We don't have a fleet of ROUs sitting around ready to annihilate entire enemy armadas. We are, in fact, streched very, very thin. An attempt to stand up to the Hishmiri in neutral space would certainly require getting the Seyek and Quolathi onboard to assist us, and would probably mean some or all of those Reniassences we have earmarked for the GBZ would need to be put in Ferasa sector. Then comes the question of what to do -- make the planet a protectorate? Keep a force of like 40C ready near it at all times? Or say "they're gone now, good luck, bye and try to forget this"?
I know I want to get the Atuin, the Endurance, two Rennies, and two Mirandas, find an Audacious and a pair of Constrictors and whatever the Quolathi can pull together and kick the Hishmiri away, hopefully without having to resort to direct violence.
Doing some of this would not doubt require the approval of the President. And N'Gir is development, by definition inward-looking. She's probably not willing to risk a significant amount of Starfleet lives that protect the planets of the Federation just to drive off the Hishmiri and be handed a very thorny political issue.
We simply don't have the ships to be playing Quadrant Policeman. Not if we don't want to lose ground in the GBZ, and doing that would mean the Cardassians could strengthen up to be the Quadrant polity-eater.
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- Patriarchova
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- Mid-Atlantic
Well, I was actually thinking more like novel Starship Troopers after a realistic amount of time had passed to enable the military to stop being citizen-soldiers and start turning into an aristocracy.
Movie Starship Troopers is just random fascism that bought out the rights to wear the Heinlein novel's skin like a costume.
It kind of depends on what we're saving them from. Are we saving them from the entire Hishmeri 'horde?' Do we just have to convince one Sept that probably has like a couple of cruisers and some frigates to go away, then park a squadron in orbit so that no one Sept wants to take chances, while helpfully directing the Septs as a whole to all the M-class uninhabited planets our explorations have discovered, which they are more than welcome to exploit the hell out of on their way past?
The Hishmeri are opportunists; the amount of force required to push them away from things we don't want struck isn't that large, if we can offer them an alternative.
This is a valid question for us to worry about- but we'll settle it after we know what the political lay of the land on the issue is.
Among other things, N'Gir is a Caitian and the Caitians are more threatened by the Hishmeri than any other Federation member world. Moreover, if they just keep going they're going to fly smack into Federation space, which means they're bound to become our problem sooner or later. Delaying dealing with them doesn't mean we can avoid dealing with them.
N'Gir may be Development, but look at the Licori war. She's an interventionist.
Mm, slightly different circumstances. In that case, the potential for a Licori weapon to destroy Development's political heartland was one of the reasons she went to war when normally, a development Prez wouldn't.
Now the Hishmiri, admittedly, are a direct threat to the Ferasa sector, and could tip the calculus for her towards intervention. Particularly if the citizenry likes the idea of intervention. However, I suspect that will be after they make more aggressive moves towards us. She may not want to be
Just to clarify (and I edited the repot to match) the Sydraxians use a variety of musical styles and forms in their legislative song-speeches. Right after this contentious exchange there was an acoustic ballad about the proposed reforms to the criminal code involving personal narcotic use.
I imagine since they can't bring in instruments, there's probably a lot of Impressive Choral Backing going on as well.
So the Catians will probably be on board.
A patchwork force from Starfleet, the Catians, Qloathi, and maybe the Dawiar & Orians should be able to cockblock the Septs...
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Taken as an adaption of the novel the movie fails badly, mostly because it's not an adaption in any meaningful sense; it started out as an unrelated script and the director only read the first two chapters.
Taken as its own thing it's a great movie and a brilliant (definitely intentional) satire of fascism. That doesn't really apply to the sequels, but the song just fit too well not to post.
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Dawiar? how you going too get a client state of an other power too help us?
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It's not us they would be helping.
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- Central Standard Time
... what did I just watch.
Starship Troopers 3. Horrible movie.
They'd be helping themselves.
Thebigpieman
I've got this, I think.
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- United States
You sir are objectively wrong
Starship Troopers 3 is a great movie.
Night
Widow Null
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- Hoff
You sir are objectively wrong
No even by bad movie standards it's really not a good entry.
(Ironically the second movie's not bad if you're in the mood for a stripped-down Alien-style flick.)