From people inspired by the Kadeshi mission, I have to presume. Or else that Preserver black box tech they have is a lot more impressive than they've led us to believe.Side note: It would be hilarious if we could transfer a +1 crew rating to the Stargazer. After all, we're somehow getting 0.45 total crew from the Kadeshi every year
To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)
- Thread starter OneirosTheWriter
- Start date
- Sci-Fi
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- Tags
- star trek exploration fully automated luxury gay space communism top level canon (canon) #hashtagcontent all-encompassing space amoeba cardassian boy bands cardassian magical girls darkest bureaucracy debate makes the qm cackle like palpatine hoh is an empire quest it has to be foreign infiltrators more ships ship happens singers delenda est starfleet this is not an empire quest ur waifu is collective?
- Location
- Central Standard Time
[X] Simon_Jester
If anyone has commented on the Klingon Capital being out of prototyping, I missed it.
So an Excelsior scale vessel done in the Klingon style. What are chances that the Hull score hits two digits?
Science/Precense will be low by Federation Capital standards, but probably high by Klingon values.
Shields similar or a little weaker, but definitely going to have a higher Combat value.
Hopefully the Ambassador will sufficiently out class the Klingon design to keep us from panicking if Fed/Klingon relations sour.
So an Excelsior scale vessel done in the Klingon style. What are chances that the Hull score hits two digits?
Science/Precense will be low by Federation Capital standards, but probably high by Klingon values.
Shields similar or a little weaker, but definitely going to have a higher Combat value.
Hopefully the Ambassador will sufficiently out class the Klingon design to keep us from panicking if Fed/Klingon relations sour.
- Location
- Patriarchova
Assuming the Romulans leave any intact.
- Location
- USA
Unless they have some crazy research they will not be double digit, more so on the same weight range as the Excelsior. Still H7 would be solid for that size. Also cloaking device so that will be fun
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
The Klingons explicitly have a shipbuilding style that makes hulls much tougher physically than ours, at the cost of ???. Even the K'tinga, which is puny compared to an Excelsior, has superior Hull values to an Excelsior. That said...
Furthermore, the Cardassians had numerous Jalduns and Kaldars in service when we met them around 2305, and we haven't seen a single solitary specimen of whatever cruiser class they had before the Jaldun. This strongly suggests that the class(es) has been in service since the early 2390s or even longer. If so, it is very likely that they will be doing a refit to increase the ships' combat potential in the near future.
Remember that the Jaldun outmasses the Renaissance-class by 20%, and the Kaldar enjoys a 50% tonnage advantage. Cardassian technology isn't so inferior to ours that on a modernized ship design they should still be getting significantly inferior performance to a Rennie.
Indeed, this need for refits is the obvious reason for them to suddenly build a huge number of berths all at once. It's unlikely that their resource income has skyrocketed so high that they can afford to double ship production within a span of 3-5 years... but it's very possible that they're planning to do a huge wave of relatively cheap refits in the late 2310s, without disrupting their ongoing production of new Jalduns.
Or, for another interpretation that encompasses our entire fleet, we want Excelsiors as sector garrison flagships everywhere. But backstopping them we want Rennies on the border, with an option on Miranda-As to thicken the defenses if we expect an enemy to attack in brute force with little warning... and cheaper Constellation-As in the interior, holding down sectors with cost-effective garrison ships that can remain in place when the Excelsiors and other ships located in interior sectors are getting called up to fight in wars on the borders.
A larger Constellation-A force, gradually transitioning to Keplers as the 2320s roll on, would help avoid situations like the one we've had with the Licori War where we had to strip entire sectors completely bare of Starfleet presence and bleed dozens of political will a year due to missed event checks.
...
My own view is that we should build a mix of Renaissances and either Miranda-As (if crew is very tight or war is expected within 1-2 years) or Constellation-As (if special resources are very tight and the enlisted crew pool looks solid). Centaur-As are good substitutes for Miranda-As if our resource income is solid enough to permit it.
Once Keplers become available for mass production there will be no further reason to build Constellation-As and little further reason to build Centaur-As... but that's a pretty distant planning horizon for us, in that we have time to build at least two complete waves of escort/cruiser hulls between then and now.
Meanwhile, we've got the Seyek, Orions, Yrillians, and Rigellians, all of which have explicitly been in space longer than humans, and frankly we're lucky they aren't ahead of us technologically. Ditto the Romulans (who are a major power to boot) and Klingons (though there are good reasons, knowing the Klingons, why they aren't ahead of us in technology. )
With other species, like the Cardassians, Amarki, Apiata, Qloathi, Caitians, and so on... we have no way of knowing how long they've been in space relative to us, so it's hard to form a meaningful picture of what they "should" know. For that matter, the 'core four' Federation itself consists of one species that's only been in space for about 200 years, two with 300-400 years' experience, and one that was capable of building interstellar colony slowboats two millennia ago.
It's a bit wonky, and frankly the only way to avoid headaches is to make some simplifying assumptions (like the ones I did in a recent post) and justify exceptions by ad hoc arguments like "the Vulcans WOULD have very high technology by now, except that living on a nuked-out desert world from all the chaos of their pre-Surak wars has left them permanently 'capped' at a low level of industry, so that doing further pure research is disproportionately hard for them."
There's not a lot to say. It's going to be a big tough battleship, we knew that already. We'll learn its exact stats when we can.
I suspect that Oneiros may be trying to back up a bit from the extremely high stats he gave some very low-tonnage Klingon and Romulan ships early in the game in favor of more proportionate figures. If so, this battleship MIGHT hit Hull 10, MAYBE, but not much above it in my opinion.
We are already doing the things you describe, and if you read the thread closely you will find considerable support for the idea of building a starbase (or two) on the Klingon border.
Ambiguous, because I want the Explorer Corps to keep expanding and would be rather saddened to retire some of our fine Excelsiors from Explorer Corps service. At the same time, though, it would probably be a good thing in the long run to make the transition without undue foot-dragging; we're not going to have S'harien and Sarek tooling around the galaxy as Explorer Corps ships in 2340, realistically.
This is true, but the Rennies' advantage is not overwhelming; a Jaldun defeating a Renaissance would be hardly inconceivable or even unlikely.
Furthermore, the Cardassians had numerous Jalduns and Kaldars in service when we met them around 2305, and we haven't seen a single solitary specimen of whatever cruiser class they had before the Jaldun. This strongly suggests that the class(es) has been in service since the early 2390s or even longer. If so, it is very likely that they will be doing a refit to increase the ships' combat potential in the near future.
Remember that the Jaldun outmasses the Renaissance-class by 20%, and the Kaldar enjoys a 50% tonnage advantage. Cardassian technology isn't so inferior to ours that on a modernized ship design they should still be getting significantly inferior performance to a Rennie.
Indeed, this need for refits is the obvious reason for them to suddenly build a huge number of berths all at once. It's unlikely that their resource income has skyrocketed so high that they can afford to double ship production within a span of 3-5 years... but it's very possible that they're planning to do a huge wave of relatively cheap refits in the late 2310s, without disrupting their ongoing production of new Jalduns.
Looking at how event response (and failure-to-respond) have been going lately, I think there's a case to be made for having more ships available to respond, rather than a handful of better ones. A Renaissance backed by a Constellation-A and a Miranda-A would be slightly more expensive than two Rennies, but might actually perform quite a bit better on event response, for instance.
Or, for another interpretation that encompasses our entire fleet, we want Excelsiors as sector garrison flagships everywhere. But backstopping them we want Rennies on the border, with an option on Miranda-As to thicken the defenses if we expect an enemy to attack in brute force with little warning... and cheaper Constellation-As in the interior, holding down sectors with cost-effective garrison ships that can remain in place when the Excelsiors and other ships located in interior sectors are getting called up to fight in wars on the borders.
A larger Constellation-A force, gradually transitioning to Keplers as the 2320s roll on, would help avoid situations like the one we've had with the Licori War where we had to strip entire sectors completely bare of Starfleet presence and bleed dozens of political will a year due to missed event checks.
...
My own view is that we should build a mix of Renaissances and either Miranda-As (if crew is very tight or war is expected within 1-2 years) or Constellation-As (if special resources are very tight and the enlisted crew pool looks solid). Centaur-As are good substitutes for Miranda-As if our resource income is solid enough to permit it.
Once Keplers become available for mass production there will be no further reason to build Constellation-As and little further reason to build Centaur-As... but that's a pretty distant planning horizon for us, in that we have time to build at least two complete waves of escort/cruiser hulls between then and now.
Yeah. The big issue with using Rennies as event responders and Defense requirement ships is that they DO count heavily against the combat cap. Miranda-As are even worse for this, honestly, which is one of the arguments AGAINST building them, or for mothballing them and putting them in reserve as we hit our combat cap and have to start optimizing our fleet within its constraints.
By the time the Excelsiors are being replaced by Ambassadors in the Explorer Corps, all or nearly all of them will have been refitted.
The Dawiar were like 100-150 years behind us at first contact. The Caldonians were a generation or so behind us at first contact but science is their hat and they've been learning from us. The Indorians were in the TOS era (40-50 years behind us), but they're in a similar position because "learning by watching what others do" is one of THEIR hats along with "very pragmatic/efficient engineering." The Betazoids and Risans are on par with us in some areas and massively behind us in others, mostly because they don't care about making things go boom.
Meanwhile, we've got the Seyek, Orions, Yrillians, and Rigellians, all of which have explicitly been in space longer than humans, and frankly we're lucky they aren't ahead of us technologically. Ditto the Romulans (who are a major power to boot) and Klingons (though there are good reasons, knowing the Klingons, why they aren't ahead of us in technology.
)With other species, like the Cardassians, Amarki, Apiata, Qloathi, Caitians, and so on... we have no way of knowing how long they've been in space relative to us, so it's hard to form a meaningful picture of what they "should" know. For that matter, the 'core four' Federation itself consists of one species that's only been in space for about 200 years, two with 300-400 years' experience, and one that was capable of building interstellar colony slowboats two millennia ago.
It's a bit wonky, and frankly the only way to avoid headaches is to make some simplifying assumptions (like the ones I did in a recent post) and justify exceptions by ad hoc arguments like "the Vulcans WOULD have very high technology by now, except that living on a nuked-out desert world from all the chaos of their pre-Surak wars has left them permanently 'capped' at a low level of industry, so that doing further pure research is disproportionately hard for them."
I'm not sure that the expected number of failures integrated over the 2-3 years it takes a crew to hit Blooded is actually greater than the expected number of failures integrated over the 5-7 (?) years it seems to take for a crew to hit Veteran, or the 10 (?) years it seems to take for a crew to hit Elite. That's especially true for the Excelsior-As, which already have +1 in most of their relevant stats.
By a similar argument the endlessly growing pool of regular fleet crew is silly. We know that the model of crew in the game is oversimplified because we've been explicitly told that we can get more crew by having better medical rehabilitation and retention rates. A 'unit' of crew is continuously gaining and losing people, and the Academy's rate of graduating new Starfleet recruits is obviously a good deal higher than the naive number you'd get by adding up all the crew units added to our pool that year and multiplying by 50.
Basically, because academy expansions have to be paid for far in advance of the time when you need "MORE CREW NOWWW!" it's kind of a big deal to get them rolling as soon as possible. Berths are a bit less pressing though they still have lead time associated with them. And quite frankly, since the Cardassians are fairly likely to attack us some time in the next 5-6 years, we're going to need a lot of repair space, especially since with all those new cruiser berths it's fairly clear that THEY have ample space to repair damaged ships.
Forgothrax
Not Going Gently
- Pronouns
- He/Him
It's probably wise to invest in 2 Constie-Ps for the home sectors. Do remember that we have Mutual Support in the future, though. That will really help with garrisoning. Same with the techs that reduce event rate in home sectors and increase in BZs.
Doing crew expansions until we have a safe margin is probably wise, too. At least until our political masters determine what species can enter the Federation when.
Doing crew expansions until we have a safe margin is probably wise, too. At least until our political masters determine what species can enter the Federation when.
Theunderbolt
"Prepare for trouble..."
- Location
- USoA
[X][BETA] Oreasa starfleet Shipyards
[X][CREW1] Crew with Explorer Corps
[X][CREW2] Crew with Standard Crew
[X][NAME1] Tarrak
[X][NAME2] Pleezirra
[X][AMBY] Heavy Ambassador
[X][BUILD] 2316 2 Ambassadors, Resume 1 Miranda-A, 1 Excelsior refit, 2 Miranda-A refits, 2 Constellation Refits
[X][CREW1] Crew with Explorer Corps
[X][CREW2] Crew with Standard Crew
[X][NAME1] Tarrak
[X][NAME2] Pleezirra
[X][AMBY] Heavy Ambassador
[X][BUILD] 2316 2 Ambassadors, Resume 1 Miranda-A, 1 Excelsior refit, 2 Miranda-A refits, 2 Constellation Refits
AKuz
Been Better
- Location
- A Rising Tide of Horrors
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I like that all these new designs are everyone playing catch up to the Excelsior.
And here we are laying down the Excelsior's successor.
Like the Cardassian's launch a bunch of "Dreadnaught Killers" or whatever in a few years to kill our Excelsiors... then the Ambys roll out of UP...
I just picture some Cardassian Legate drinking and swearing about "Superdreadnaughts" while breaking office equipment.
> : P
And here we are laying down the Excelsior's successor.
Like the Cardassian's launch a bunch of "Dreadnaught Killers" or whatever in a few years to kill our Excelsiors... then the Ambys roll out of UP...
I just picture some Cardassian Legate drinking and swearing about "Superdreadnaughts" while breaking office equipment.
> : P
- Location
- USA
Well advantage to Federation is it combines the tech base of the Vulcans, Andorians, Tellarites and Humans (who likely contributed more in crew and resources then tech). So it makes a lot more sense than saying oh Humans got that far that quick...The Dawiar were like 100-150 years behind us at first contact. The Caldonians were a generation or so behind us at first contact but science is their hat and they've been learning from us. The Indorians were in the TOS era (40-50 years behind us), but they're in a similar position because "learning by watching what others do" is one of THEIR hats along with "very pragmatic/efficient engineering." The Betazoids and Risans are on par with us in some areas and massively behind us in others, mostly because they don't care about making things go boom.
Meanwhile, we've got the Seyek, Orions, Yrillians, and Rigellians, all of which have explicitly been in space longer than humans, and frankly we're lucky they aren't ahead of us technologically. Ditto the Romulans (who are a major power to boot) and Klingons (though there are good reasons, knowing the Klingons, why they aren't ahead of us in technology.
With other species, like the Cardassians, Amarki, Apiata, Qloathi, Caitians, and so on... we have no way of knowing how long they've been in space relative to us, so it's hard to form a meaningful picture of what they "should" know. For that matter, the 'core four' Federation itself consists of one species that's only been in space for about 200 years, two with 300-400 years' experience, and one that was capable of building interstellar colony slowboats two millennia ago.
It's a bit wonky, and frankly the only way to avoid headaches is to make some simplifying assumptions (like the ones I did in a recent post) and justify exceptions by ad hoc arguments like "the Vulcans WOULD have very high technology by now, except that living on a nuked-out desert world from all the chaos of their pre-Surak wars has left them permanently 'capped' at a low level of industry, so that doing further pure research is disproportionately hard for them."
And now we as we add species we add their own specialties to our tech base. I think what is likely is the Federation is at the same overall tech level but we likely have research in far more areas than other groups thanks to the mix of species we have.
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KnightDisciple
Brotherhood. Unity. Peace.
- Location
- Midwest, USA
Imagine the reaction when Galaxies come around in a few decades.
AKuz
Been Better
- Location
- A Rising Tide of Horrors
- Pronouns
- She/Her
"Why is that civilian suburb flying through space?"
Derek58
Rocket Punch is Best Punch
- Location
- Getter Valhalla
"...it just wiped out how many of our ships solo?!"
UbeOne
Daydreaming CPU
- Location
- Philippines
- Pronouns
- She/Her
"And they named it Enterprise?""...it just wiped out how many of our ships solo?!"
"...Can we join them instead?"
We will need bigger berths - quick google says 4.5 MT for canon design. Front page has placeholder version at 5 MT
Edit:
Speculation. Will we have the option to upgrade our 3MT berths, or we have to build new 5MT berths? I am imaging the fun naming scheme we will have if UP has 1, 2, 3 and 5MT berths (I assume by then we will have had reason to need the 2MT expansions)
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AKuz
Been Better
- Location
- A Rising Tide of Horrors
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Seriously tho. Enterprise D had no goddamn fucking reason to bring families along.
Also: Remember that Starfleet lost a galaxy during that time. Enterprise got lucky but think of how many children pointlessly died on Yammamoto. And imagine of Ulysses had just met the Jem'hadar in deep space rather than dropping dependants off at DS9.
It was am understandable (If stupid) Idea born od tremendous arrogance and complacency that shouldn't be emulated by us.
Less children, more cargo space, that's what I say!
Also: Remember that Starfleet lost a galaxy during that time. Enterprise got lucky but think of how many children pointlessly died on Yammamoto. And imagine of Ulysses had just met the Jem'hadar in deep space rather than dropping dependants off at DS9.
It was am understandable (If stupid) Idea born od tremendous arrogance and complacency that shouldn't be emulated by us.
Less children, more cargo space, that's what I say!
KnightDisciple
Brotherhood. Unity. Peace.
- Location
- Midwest, USA
I don't disagree, thought I'd say MOAR LABS.
AKuz
Been Better
- Location
- A Rising Tide of Horrors
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Canon Galaxy's are already 30% empty.
Though apparently Dominion War era refits fills that space up with weapons and shields while stripping out family areas for more of the same. A War Galaxy really would be a frightening prospect to face down.
I'm not sure the Odyessy had families onboard. Seems likely they dropped them off.
Also tiny Mirandas had families onboard as well. I think the family thing was probably pushed BY families, actually. FYM can't be easy to build a life around, and people in the 24th century seem rather cavalier about death anyways at times.
Also tiny Mirandas had families onboard as well. I think the family thing was probably pushed BY families, actually. FYM can't be easy to build a life around, and people in the 24th century seem rather cavalier about death anyways at times.
I thought Dominion War Galaxies were normal Galaxies that had all superfluous non-combat/non-engineering equipment stripped out so they could be churned out like crazy.
KnightDisciple
Brotherhood. Unity. Peace.
- Location
- Midwest, USA
A fully-planned War Galaxy may well look like the All Good Things Futureprise without the 3rd nacelle.
Theunderbolt
"Prepare for trouble..."
- Location
- USoA
Yeah the Feddies were the big fish in their side of the ocean and the only ship bigger than the Galaxy was the D'deridex if barely.
Please tell me though that our shields don't work off that frequency nonsense.
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