- Location
- USA
So mixed feelings on the ship build, nice for all the refits but sad we are only starting two ships even though I know why. Still 2317 should be better for new ships starting.
To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)
- Thread starter OneirosTheWriter
- Start date
- Sci-Fi
-
- Tags
- star trek exploration fully automated luxury gay space communism top level canon (canon) #hashtagcontent all-encompassing space amoeba cardassian boy bands cardassian magical girls darkest bureaucracy debate makes the qm cackle like palpatine hoh is an empire quest it has to be foreign infiltrators more ships ship happens singers delenda est starfleet this is not an empire quest ur waifu is collective?
Yeah, I wish we could start more ships as well. But two prototype Ambassadors (which each cost 1.5x what a regular Ambassador will cost) is just a huge chunk of budget. Those two alone cost 720 special resources. (Explaining for the benefit of everyone else.)
At least we can spend berth space productively on refits and such.
lbmaian
a thirsty squirrel
- Location
- USA
We still have the delayed Rat Race, and an Ambassador design vote to go. The latter is a prereq for a Shipyards Ops vote IMO.
IIRC, when those deployment plans were made, the Constellation refits were intended to start in Utopia Planitia, which had openings beginning in Q3. We can still do that, and have Betazed prepare for 2317 builds instead.
Geez those Ambassador prototypes are expensive. Also not guaranteed to be 240*1.5=360sr until we vote on the design, so it could be even worse.
I'm also wondering if the snakepit option for Excelsior resources will be revised to instead provide Excelsior-A resources (+10sr), but that's too late for the shipyards ops vote.
That lone resumed Miranda-A build sticks out like a sore thumb. We can't pair it with another Miranda-A build due to lack of SR (well, technically it's possible but it's skirting deficit territory). So I'm tempted to find some way to cancel it, but on the other hand, with our huge SR problems, it's the best way to help balance the BR:SR build ratios. And combat frigates are still nice to have in preparation for Cardassian conflicts.
The only other option for SR-cheap builds are Constellation-A (or Constellation-P?) builds, but they remain inefficient in crew.
*sigh* I really wish we could do short-term refits of Centaurs or Oberths to reduce their SR costs, ala how the Hebrinda-A's SR costs were reduced. It's pretty telling that we're hardly building any more of them, except for a token "hey we're building some science ships!" builds.
The Oberths are too expensive to build more of when they are about to obsoleted by a far superior design.
The Centaurs - well we would probably have more of them if we didn't have a hot border with the Cardassians - which shifted our small ship production to a focus on the cheaper Mirandas, whom fair poorly at event response, but are just as good at general combat as the Centaur.
- Location
- USA
Oh yeah, aware of it which means if 2316 goes without too many repairs
So 2317:
SF 3m-A and 1m-2 available Q1
Betazoid 1m-1 and 2 Q3
Ana Font 1m-Q2
Apinae 3m-A and 1m-1- Q2
UP 1m-1,2,3,4-Q1
I also think that when our 2.5mt berths finish we should see if we can't expand them to 3mt.
I actually switched that for a reason. Oneiros indicated that he will be improving the Heavy Industrial Park so that it provides better benefits, which makes it likely we will buy it in 2316 Snakepit. Therefore I want to prioritize doing builds in Sol system and refits elsewhere.
I don't think there's a more expensive design on offer. If I recall correctly, the competition will be cheaper versions with longer build times.
The way I figure, we already paid the resource cost so it would be dumb not to go ahead and finish it. It's just throwing SR down the drain not to, and we can always use another Miranda-A.
Eh, the Constellation-A is actually pretty nice. Sure it's a bit of a crew hog, but so cheap in SR! I have some penciled in for building in 2318, if I can convince people to buy in.
No rush about it, IMO. We can use them for Excelsior refits for the next 5 years or so and then expand them.
Regarding Centaur-A vs Constellation-A. Assuming I have right stats here for the Constellation-A we are using (it is not the one on the front page)
Constellation-A
C3 S4 H2 L3 P3 D4 - O2 E4 T2 - 70br50sr - 3 years
Centaur-A
C3 S3 H2 L3 P3 D3 - O1 E2 T2 - 80br70sr - 2 years
The Constellation is better event responder (better S and D) and significantly cheaper (10br20sr!) but takes an additional year to build and requires 3 more crew units.
In the case of war, they will be similar in direct battle. The Centaur should have a slightly higher base evasion, the Constellation would get a better sensor bonus. However, as the Constellation is cruiser, it would not get a bonus against mines and is more likely to show up in the big guns deployment sections, while the Centaur should be playing the role of early skirmisher.
Constellation-A
C3 S4 H2 L3 P3 D4 - O2 E4 T2 - 70br50sr - 3 years
Centaur-A
C3 S3 H2 L3 P3 D3 - O1 E2 T2 - 80br70sr - 2 years
The Constellation is better event responder (better S and D) and significantly cheaper (10br20sr!) but takes an additional year to build and requires 3 more crew units.
In the case of war, they will be similar in direct battle. The Centaur should have a slightly higher base evasion, the Constellation would get a better sensor bonus. However, as the Constellation is cruiser, it would not get a bonus against mines and is more likely to show up in the big guns deployment sections, while the Centaur should be playing the role of early skirmisher.
pheonix89
Wants to be Seven Of Nine
- Location
- North American Plaguelands
- Pronouns
- She/Her
We're not going for the Constellation-A.
We're going for the Constellation-P which IIRC is a pure response ship.
I'm calling it the Constellation-A until there's a game post specifically telling me otherwise. The first refit we do is the Constellation-A, even if it used the stats proposed by the Pacifist party. Letter codes have meanings. They are supposed to communciate things!
I am actually not liking those penciled-in Oberth builds much. We don't have much reason to run them other than "extra techs", and we may even be ordering the Kepler this year (5-7y to production). The SR cost really isn't justified because the Cardassians will start to pass is in strength if we don't keep up some dual purpose ships. We may want to see about Centaur-As or even Constellation-As. In fact, I'll have to check a build plan with Constie-As but they're only 1 less science than an Oberth.
Yay!
We were only 19 freighters and 36 cargo ships in the hole to avoid logistics strain, or 5 freighters and 8 cargo ships in the hole to fill our logistics network alone without other tasks. That's 110 years of build time, or 27.5 years for our current Auxiliary shipyards, assuming we build no ships, build no non-cargo auxiliaries, settle no colonies, and gain no new members. Or if we use two berths to catch up and two for hospital/engineering/prospecting ships, 13 years just to fulfill our current obligations assuming we build no ships and settle no colonies. So now that the two freighters are done it will only take 26.5 years to avoid logistics strain (no non-cargo builds), or 12 years to fill our current obligations (assuming two berths and no new commitments).
Obviously we don't need to completely cease federalizing logistics ships, but we are deeply in the hole and it will take more than the entire length of the quest thus far to even see the edge of the hole given that we are continuously expanding. In fact, the upcoming end of the moratorium will see us digging another hole of about the same size to ship resources from new members.
The P refit is going to be designated A if our people have any sense at all.
Yeah, I don't see a reason to make Oberths in 2317.Q3. We could easily do a Constellation-A double build, or even turn the Rennie double into a Rennie quadruple if we requested some SR in Snakepit. And Constellation-As or Rennies will have far more longevity.
e: Actually, a 2317.Q2 Excelsior resource request would let us fill our 2317 berths with crash builds which will be needed if the Cardassians go for the 2319 window to start the war, and we are starting Excelsior-As that year so it makes sense.
e2: Probably should start the Kepler Prototype in Ana Font rather than Apinae. e3: Or whatever other juggling works. Apinae we wanted as a repair yard.
e: Actually, a 2317.Q2 Excelsior resource request would let us fill our 2317 berths with crash builds which will be needed if the Cardassians go for the 2319 window to start the war, and we are starting Excelsior-As that year so it makes sense.
e2: Probably should start the Kepler Prototype in Ana Font rather than Apinae. e3: Or whatever other juggling works. Apinae we wanted as a repair yard.
Last edited:
- Location
- Austin, TX
Depends on how much of an improvement it is. Last time I looked, even if it affected all UP and SF docs, it was still more efficient of per month/pp to build more docs.
That is, if I have the right stats, the Pacifist Constellation design with the correct -A naming.
lbmaian
a thirsty squirrel
- Location
- USA
We also have a prospector, colony ship, and 2 cargo ships completing for us in Vulcan and Andor shipyards. I wonder if we'll get a MWCO option to continue using member fleet yards for Starfleet auxiliary builds.
Unless you think the heavy industrial park won't help with refits, I don't see why this matters?
If it's been shown that heavy industry teams can help speed up repairs and builds, I'd think they'd be able to help with refits just as well. At least I hope Oneiros takes that into account when rebalancing the heavy industrial park.
I think I saw a nominated design with 250sr.
Well, I was hoping that cancelling that Miranda-A build would return to us the vast majority of the build cost, because it's so early in the build. At most, the saucer frame of the ships were laid down, and the warp core assembly just started very early production at the Venus Assembly Plant, right? Surely, we'd be able to recover much more than the scrapping costs if we canceled a starship build with just a single quarter of progress.
@OneirosTheWriter, is it possible to cancel a build, and if so, how much in resources would we recoup when canceling a Miranda-A with just a single quarter of build progress?
Constellation-As still compete with Renaissances for crew in my mind. But with the SR crunch, I'd support building them instead of Oberths.
Oh yeah, this is a thing: whether to refit to Sarek in 2316 before her next FYM.
I was initially opposed to this since I wanted to give Mrr'shan a shot at another FYM before she's promoted (if she wanted). But now I'm ambivalent on the issue.
So this is just a thought exercise in maximizing production, but if we request an Excelsior's resources (likely cost 45 to 50 pp) in 2317.Q2 Snakepit and we are willing to fill most of our berths:
The net ships we would gain vs what I've seen planned are:
+2 Rennaisance
+2 Constellation-A
+2 Miranda-A
-2 Oberth (or -2 Constellation-A)
For the cost of ~50pp and reducing our crew surplus if we stop buying academy expansions completely. Might be something to consider. Note that we are starting Excelsiors that year so the request makes plenty of sense.
e: It also would likely be Chen's last big hurrah from her crazy bonus before she either moves up or gets moved sideways.
e2: A slightly more aggressive plan involving a berth transfer:
The benefit is the Apinae-A 3mt berth is freed up for repairs, something I've seen requested as desirable, by transferring the Constellation-A in SF-A to SF-1 once it's empty, moving refits from Apinae-A to SF-A and the SF-A Rennie to UP. Note that the Excelsior refits in SF-A can be forward half a year, I just listed the original scheduling.
The net ships we would gain vs what I've seen planned are:
+2 Rennaisance
+2 Constellation-A
+2 Miranda-A
-2 Oberth (or -2 Constellation-A)
For the cost of ~50pp and reducing our crew surplus if we stop buying academy expansions completely. Might be something to consider. Note that we are starting Excelsiors that year so the request makes plenty of sense.
e: It also would likely be Chen's last big hurrah from her crazy bonus before she either moves up or gets moved sideways.
e2: A slightly more aggressive plan involving a berth transfer:
Last edited:
- Location
- Australia
Well, you bumped the production, but it was always originally intended to be completed eventually, and it was bumped in favour of repairs, so I'd actually suggest that the outsourced components (that is, the warp core, deflector dish, emitters, nacelles, duotronic computer core, etc) would have been built by this stage, awaiting assembly at the correct stages. So that investment has been made already. So you'd get the majority of your BR back, but not much of the SR.
Normally after 1 month you'd be able to recoup most costs, but this is a special case due to it being a simple suspension at the time, rather than a cancellation.
Oh, I should note one way to keep our aging Vice Admirals around would be to make an Admiral position for them and move them up (possibly in another department if they've been in one place for a while like Chen has). That would likely extend time to retirement by half a decade at least.
- Location
- United States
I really think that we should prioritize requesting increased funding rather than 1 off infusions at this stage.
Based on precedent, you're looking at ~5 years to return a budget update in SR vs an infusion. By that time the ships will be long complete. At this point, we're expecting a Cardassian shipbuilding splurge followed by a war. 2317 is about the last year we will be able to build ships for the earlier projected dates. If there was any time to order an infusion or two, it's now.
lbmaian
a thirsty squirrel
- Location
- USA
At the moment, I'd prefer leaving some berths empty, especially the Apiata ones. The new repair yards in the GBZ do help, but we're still going to be swamped if any major battles happen in the GBZ.
If we're worried about defense, I'd also prefer to spend ~50pp on more starbases or outposts (or other infrastructure) instead of an infusion of 230br 150(160?)sr.
Hm okay, resumed Miranda-A is a definite go then. The option of pairing that build still stands, but would require foregoing one of the refits to be safe.
This also reminds me: despite not having the option in the 2315 snakepit, we should've still had an option to reorganize Starfleet Operations from a Vice Admiral into an Admiral position. We may have created new Vice Admiral billets under the original Vice Admiral position, but Uhura is still a Vice Admiral.
I'm actually leery of budget requests, now that we have an inkling on how member world budgets and economies work.
That is, any Starfleet budget request may draw from member fleet budgets. That's not bound to be popular, when Starfleet's budget is already nearly 50% larger than 5 years ago, and more than 5 times larger than in 2301!
Instead, I would love it if we could some expand the MWCO to allow more resource sharing between Starfleet and all the member fleets. We've already seen this happening in an ad-hoc fashion twice: between Starfleet and Andor, and between Vulcan and Tellar a couple years ago; and it would be awesome if this could be expanded.
- Location
- United States
do we want to put a starbase in the GBZ?
I don't feel that's a very good trade. Each Starbase only fights in one location, unless we're going to start doubling them up. Ships are additive to existing defenses. As for repair yards, certainly we need them, but for one, we'll only have 1 Excelsior in the GBZ, and for two, we'll have the option of forgoing an E-A refit or pushing the Constellation build to SF-1 once the Miri-A there clears.
I feel not taking advantage of our existing infrastructure will create a genuine risk of actually losing the war.
Thebigpieman
I've got this, I think.
- Location
- United States
Can't we just get GBZ engineering command to build a starbase? They're settling planets and the like without our input or PP cost, though admittedly a starbase is a bit more of a resource commitment all things considered.