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To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)

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To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest) Starfleet Ship Design Bureau, Refit ("To Boldly Go...")
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Alastor Mobius Toth said:
I did play SC a fair bit, so I know things about them.

Like the idea of Lyran defenses being shields made out of plasma that they ram into other ships. Good times, good times.

There's actually a Gorn campaign in SC, been playing that recently.
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I used to fly Gorn in my Star Fleet Battles days.

SFB was full of expanded lore and ship designs that never hit the computer games.
 
I'm against the Constellation on the admittedly meta grounds that I think its a god awful death trap. Disregarding the actual mechanical stats, it breaks so many standard Star Trek design elements that it HAS to have serious base engineering flaws. It's a fundamentally bad space frame, and any attempt at refitting it to keep it competitive is just putting more make up on a pig.

At the end of the day, we'll be retaining the Centaurs. The Constellations will be scrapped the moment the Renaissances are able to replace them.
 
OmegaS said:
I'm against the Constellation on the admittedly meta grounds that I think its a god awful death trap. Disregarding the actual mechanical stats, it breaks so many standard Star Trek design elements that it HAS to have serious base engineering flaws. It's a fundamentally bad space frame, and any attempt at refitting it to keep it competitive is just putting more make up on a pig.

At the end of the day, we'll be retaining the Centaurs. The Constellations will be scrapped the moment the Renaissances are able to replace them.
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I'm pretty sure there's a benefit to keeping one – USS Stargazer – around for a few more decades, at least if you like TNG.

We do have a Stargazer, right?
 
Here's a final tally for you @OneirosTheWriter!

Vote Tally : Sci-Fi - To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest) | Page 185 | Sufficient Velocity
##### NetTally 1.7.4
[X]Plan Balanced Diplomacy, Industry, and Refit
No. of Votes: 17
Plan: ◈Balanced Diplomacy, Industry, and Refit
Plan: ◈Balanced Diplomacy, Industry, and Refi
AKuz
aledeth
ClawClawBite
DarknessSmiles
Derek58
Glassware
Iron Wolf
Muer'ci
Nervos Belli
NHO
Night_stalker
pheonix89
Tasoli
Theunderbolt
tryrar
Void Stalker
Yeangst
[X]Plan Balanced Diplomacy and Refit 140
No. of Votes: 4
Plan: ◈Balanced Diplomacy and Refit 140
AlphaDelta
Briefvoice
HearthBorn
lbmaian
[X] Plan Constellations and more diplomacy
-[X] Request approval to formally add a Cardassian Border Zone to the Key Sector list, 15pp (Adds a new Border Zone, Cardassian events will take place there instead of potentially in home sectors)
-[X] Request Refit Program for Constellation class [+1 C,S,D, for 20br, 10sr, 1 Year (4 turns)], 6 turns 40pp (NB: new unit cost for Constellation will be 70/45)
-[X] NEW Request expansion of Outposts in the Tellar Sector, 10pp (4 turns, +5 Defence in Tellar, more colonies with outposts if state of emergency ensues)
-[X] Request focused Diplomacy on a potential member species, 10pp (One affiliate or prospective race will undergo accelerate diplomacy) : Rigellians
-[X] Request focused Diplomacy on a potential member species, 10pp (One affiliate or prospective race will undergo accelerate diplomacy) : Betazoids
-[X] Request focused Diplomacy on a potential member species, 10pp (One affiliate or prospective race will undergo accelerate diplomacy) : Caldonians
-[X] Request focused Diplomacy on a potential member species, 10pp (One affiliate or prospective race will undergo accelerate diplomacy) : Amarki
-[X] Request focused Diplomacy on a potential member species, 10pp (One affiliate or prospective race will undergo accelerate diplomacy) : Caitians
-[X] Request focused Diplomacy on a potential member species, 10pp (One affiliate or prospective race will undergo accelerate diplomacy) : Gaeni
-[X] Request approval to make the Ship Design Bureau a Vice Admiral billet, 15pp (Ship Design Bureau will be commanded by a Vice Admiral instead of a Rear Admiral)
No. of Votes: 2
Plan: ◈Constellations and more diplomacy
fasquardon
Happerry
-[X] Request expansion of Outposts in the Tellar Sector, 10pp (4 turns, +5 Defence in Tellar, more colonies with outposts if state of emergency ensues)
-[X] Request focused Diplomacy on a potential member species, 10pp (One affiliate or prospective race will undergo accelerate diplomacy) : Caitians
-[X] Request focused Diplomacy on a potential member species, 10pp (One affiliate or prospective race will undergo accelerate diplomacy) : Rigellians
-[X] Request focused Diplomacy on a potential member species, 10pp (One affiliate or prospective race will undergo accelerate diplomacy) : Betazoids
-[X] Request focused Diplomacy on a potential member species, 10pp (One affiliate or prospective race will undergo accelerate diplomacy) : Gaeni
-[X] Request focused Diplomacy on a potential member species, 10pp (One affiliate or prospective race will undergo accelerate diplomacy) : Caldoians
-[X] Request focused Diplomacy on a potential member species, 10pp (One affiliate or prospective race will undergo accelerate diplomacy) : Orion Union
-[X] Request focused Diplomacy on a potential member species, 10pp (One affiliate or prospective race will undergo accelerate diplomacy) : Amarki
-[X] Request focused Diplomacy on a potential member species, 10pp (One affiliate or prospective race will undergo accelerate diplomacy) : Sydraxians
-[X] Request focused Diplomacy on a potential member species, 10pp (One affiliate or prospective race will undergo accelerate diplomacy) : Kadeshi
-[X] Request Mining Colony at Pygmalion 337 IV-3, 8pp (4 turns, gain +20 br / year)
-[X] Request approval to formally add a Cardassian Border Zone to the Key Sector list, 15pp (Adds a new Border Zone, Cardassian events will take place there instead of potentially in home sectors)
No. of Votes: 1
SuperSonicSound
[X] Plan Return of the Constitution
-[X] Request approval to formally add a Cardassian Border Zone to the Key Sector list, 15pp (Adds a new Border Zone, Cardassian events will take place there instead of potentially in home sectors)
-[X] Request Refit Program for Constitution class [Constitution-class acquires stat block listed below], 8 turns, 50pp
-[X] NEW Request expansion of Outposts in the Tellar Sector, 10pp (4 turns, +5 Defence in Tellar, more colonies with outposts if state of emergency ensues)
-[X] Request focused Diplomacy on a potential member species, 10pp (One affiliate or prospective race will undergo accelerate diplomacy) : Rigellians
-[X] Request focused Diplomacy on a potential member species, 10pp (One affiliate or prospective race will undergo accelerate diplomacy) : Betazoids
-[X] Request focused Diplomacy on a potential member species, 10pp (One affiliate or prospective race will undergo accelerate diplomacy) : Orion Union
-[X] Request focused Diplomacy on a potential member species, 10pp (One affiliate or prospective race will undergo accelerate diplomacy) : Amarki
-[X] Request approval to make the Ship Design Bureau a Vice Admiral billet, 15pp (Ship Design Bureau will be commanded by a Vice Admiral instead of a Rear Admiral)
No. of Votes: 0
Plan: ◈Return of the Constitution
Task: COUNCIL
[x][COUNCIL] Plan Emphasize Growth MK II
-[X] Request expansion of Outposts in the Tellar Sector, 10pp (4 turns, +5 Defence in Tellar, more colonies with outposts if state of emergency ensues)
-[X] Request focused Diplomacy on a potential member species, 10pp (One affiliate or prospective race will undergo accelerate diplomacy) : Caitians
-[X] Request focused Diplomacy on a potential member species, 10pp (One affiliate or prospective race will undergo accelerate diplomacy) : Rigellians
-[X] Request focused Diplomacy on a potential member species, 10pp (One affiliate or prospective race will undergo accelerate diplomacy) : Betazoids
-[X] Request focused Diplomacy on a potential member species, 10pp (One affiliate or prospective race will undergo accelerate diplomacy) : Gaeni
-[X] Request focused Diplomacy on a potential member species, 10pp (One affiliate or prospective race will undergo accelerate diplomacy) : Caldoians
-[X] Request focused Diplomacy on a potential member species, 10pp (One affiliate or prospective race will undergo accelerate diplomacy) : Orion Union
-[X] Request focused Diplomacy on a potential member species, 10pp (One affiliate or prospective race will undergo accelerate diplomacy) : Amarki
-[X] Request focused Diplomacy on a potential member species, 10pp (One affiliate or prospective race will undergo accelerate diplomacy) : Sydraxians
-[X] Request focused Diplomacy on a potential member species, 10pp (One affiliate or prospective race will undergo accelerate diplomacy) : Kadeshi
-[X] Request Mining Colony at Pygmalion 337 IV-3, 8pp (4 turns, gain +20 br / year)
-[X] Request approval to formally add a Cardassian Border Zone to the Key Sector list, 15pp (Adds a new Border Zone, Cardassian events will take place there instead of potentially in home sectors)
No. of Votes: 8
Plan: ◈Emphasize Growth MK II
Arbit
Artemis1992
bryanfran36
Darkandus
Katsuragi
Kelenas
UbeOne
Winged One
[X][COUNCIL] Plan Expansion
-[X] Request Refit Program for Constellation class [+1 C,S,D, for 20br, 10sr, 1 Year (4 turns)], 6 turns 40pp (NB: new unit cost for Constellation will be 70/45)
-[X] Request approval to formally add a Cardassian Border Zone to the Key Sector list, 15pp (Adds a new Border Zone, Cardassian events will take place there instead of potentially in home sectors)
-[X] Request expansion of Outposts in the Tellar Sector, 10pp (4 turns, +5 Defence in Tellar, more colonies with outposts if state of emergency ensues)
-[X] Request focused Diplomacy on a potential member species, 10pp (One affiliate or prospective race will undergo accelerate diplomacy) : Caitians
-[X] Request focused Diplomacy on a potential member species, 10pp (One affiliate or prospective race will undergo accelerate diplomacy) : Rigellians
-[X] Request focused Diplomacy on a potential member species, 10pp (One affiliate or prospective race will undergo accelerate diplomacy) : Betazoids
-[X] Request focused Diplomacy on a potential member species, 10pp (One affiliate or prospective race will undergo accelerate diplomacy) : Caldoians
-[X] Science Academy Expansion, 20pp (Gain +1 Techs throughput)
-[X] Request Mining Colony at Pygmalion 337 IV-3, 8pp (4 turns, gain +20 br / year)
-[X] Request Mining Colony at Galus V, 8pp (4 turns, gain +15 br / year)
No. of Votes: 3
Plan: ◈Expansion
Nix
pbluekan
Random Member
Total No. of Voters: 35

As you can see, my plan won with 17 votes
 
These are all refit stats, and I calculated a per-resource efficiency. Per-berth is, well, if we go per berth obviously the higher-stat ship is better.

C5 S3 H3 L4 P3 D5, 100br, 80sr, O-3, E-4, T-4, Constitution
20br/C, 33br/S, 33br/H, 25br/L, 33br/P, 20br/D. 0.11crew/br.
16sr/C, 27sr/S, 27sr/H, 20sr/L, 27sr/P, 16sr/D. 0.14crew/sr.

C4 S3 H2 L2 P2 D4, 70br, 45sr, O-2, E-4, T-2, Constellation
18br/C, 23br/S, 35br/H, 35br/L, 35br/P, 17br/D. 0.11crew/br.
11sr/C, 15sr/S, 23sr/H, 23sr/L, 23sr/P, 11sr/D. 0.18crew/sr.

C3 S3 H2 L3 P3 D3, 80br, 70sr, O-1, E-2, T-2, Centaur
27br/C, 27br/S, 40br/H, 27br/L, 27br/P, 27br/D. 0.06crew/br.
23sr/C, 23sr/S, 35sr/H, 23sr/L, 23sr/P, 23sr/D. 0.07crew/sr.

Conclusion? The refit Centaur is trash. Neither on a per hull (per berth) nor a per resource basis is it competitive with either the Connie or the Constellation. The only area it would be worth researching and building is if we are crew limited, in which case it's about half the crew per resource spent compared to the other two (fairly significant, if we care about crew). The refit Constitution is actually fairly competitive and would likely be our most survivable ~1mt ship if we built it, on a cost and hull basis. Its crew costs are better than the Constellation's too on a per-stat and per-cost basis, although worse if we're berth limited. The refit Constellation is okay, marred by poor shields, and is definitely the cheapest way to pump out garrison rating but in real combat would suffer.

e: Not that it matters, ninja'd by the vote closure.
 
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2315 Deployment might be something like this:. I'm assuming we're up to 16 Excelsiors, 3 Renaissance, 8 Constellations, 6 Refit Centaurs, and 10 Miranda still with us.

Five Year Missions: 6 Excelsiors

Sol - 19D from ships
1 Excelsior
2 Constellations
2 Mirandas
1 Refit Centaur

Betazed - 9D from ships (less because it's in the same sector as Sol)
1 Excelsior
1 Refit Centaur

Vulcan Sector - 16D from ships
1 Excelsior
2 Constellations
2 Mirandas

Andor Sector - 16D from ships
1 Excelsior
2 Constellations
2 Mirandas

Tellar Sector - 16D from ships
1 Excelsior
2 Constellations
2 Mirandas

Amarkia Sector - 18D from ships
1 Excelsior
1 Renaissance
2 Mirandas
1 Refit Centaur

Romulan Border Zone - 14D from ships
1 Excelsior
1 Constitution
1 Refit Centaur

Klingon Border Zone - 14D from ships
1 Excelsior
1 Renaissance
1 Refit Centaur

Cardassian Border Zone - 20D from ships
2 Excelsiors
1 Renaissance
1 Refit Centaur
 
Definitely a nice result, in my opinion - 4 races getting a bump, which likely means 2 new full members by the next snake pit, as well as 2 advanced affiliates. If we get the sr bump I expect from it, that should help one of our bottlenecks.
 
Just as an aside, if we get another PP windfall next year somehow, I would not be opposed to starting the Constitution Refit B project. Combined builds of Constitution Refit B and Centaur Refit would combine to cover their respective cost weaknesses somewhat (crew and sr respectively), and the Con-B synergies excellently with our Lone Ranger doctrine. It's a 2-year project and 3-year builds (no real need to rebuild our existing Constitution), so we wouldn't make very many, maybe ~4 total, but if we're waiting say, 2-3 years to start the Renaissance program, and looking at 6 to 8 years of development and prototyping, the Constitution Refit B would be good enough to carry our sector fleets through one good crisis and will remain relevant well past their obsolescence.

Moreso than the Centaur and Constellation refits will, anyway - C5 L4 is relevant for longer as C4 L2 or C3 L3 are less so.

If we're PP starved, obviously not, I just think it's worth thinking about.

e: I expect when we start the Renaissance will depend on cruiser techs?
 
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SynchronizedWritersBlock said:
Just as an aside, if we get another PP windfall next year somehow, I would not be opposed to starting the Constitution Refit B project. Combined builds of Constitution Refit B and Centaur Refit would combine to cover their respective cost weaknesses somewhat (crew and sr respectively), and the Con-B synergies excellently with our Lone Ranger doctrine. It's a 2-year project and 3-year builds (no real need to rebuild our existing Constitution), so we wouldn't make very many, maybe ~4 total, but if we're waiting say, 2-3 years to start the Renaissance program, and looking at 6 to 8 years of development and prototyping, the Constitution Refit B would be good enough to carry our sector fleets through one good crisis and will remain relevant well past their obsolescence.

Moreso than the Centaur and Constellation refits will, anyway - C5 L4 is relevant for longer as C4 L2 or C3 L3 are less so.

If we're PP starved, obviously not, I just think it's worth thinking about.
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I'd rather do the Constellation refit. At this point I'm opposed to a Connie refit on principle.
 
Quite honestly for the price of either of the refits I'd like to just go and build the bloody Renaissance already, the Connie's so old it's like refitting a pre-WWII design and the Constellation was born a piece of shit and will never cease to be a piece of shit.
 
aeqnai said:
Quite honestly for the price of either of the refits I'd like to just go and build the bloody Renaissance already, the Connie's so old it's like refitting a pre-WWII design and the Constellation was born a piece of shit and will never cease to be a piece of shit.
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Better to do nothing than to start the Renaissance too early. If we aren't near the target techs and times we'll get another underpowered piece of shit. e: Or we'll be researching for even longer, which means a net no change.
 
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The plan as I see it is to finish all the T2 Cruiser techs, then design and build the Rennesance.

The point of Constellation Refit is get some more use out of those ships, because we don't have the budget to replace them in the immediate future. It is NOT to build more Constellations.

The problem with the Connie "Refit" is that it's expending resources on a new design that will be superceded very quickly.
 
SynchronizedWritersBlock said:
Better to do nothing than to start the Renaissance too early. If we aren't near the target techs and times we'll get another underpowered piece of shit.
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Honestly I don't quite see the urgency of doing much of anything before the Rennie anyhow. More to the point, did we ever get clarification from @OneirosTheWriter about the time thing, and how far are we techwise?
 
aeqnai said:
Honestly I don't quite see the urgency of doing much of anything before the Rennie anyhow. More to the point, did we ever get clarification from @OneirosTheWriter about the time thing, and how far are we techwise?
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That's one of the things that puzzles me: it's not like we'll be so pressed to make the defense requirements we need to build obsolete designs and press them into service.
 
aeqnai said:
Quite honestly for the price of either of the refits I'd like to just go and build the bloody Renaissance already, the Connie's so old it's like refitting a pre-WWII design and the Constellation was born a piece of shit and will never cease to be a piece of shit.
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I don't know why everyone is so down on the Constellation. It's very cheap to make in terms of special resources, which is actually a huge benefit.

Sure it doesn't have a lot of durability, but so what? It's not a warship; it's a utility ship. It zips around its home sector and does rescues, ferries diplomats, and conducts surveys. With a refit upgrade it would have as good as Science as this Renaissance that everyone is always drooling over. That's right, on 75% of missions you could send a Renaissance or a refitted Constellation and they would perform equally well. And the main advantage of the Renaissance isn't better shields, it's higher Presence!

Yet the Constellation is a "piece of shit" because it doesn't have very good shields or hull.
 
Might have a workhorse escort design up soon, which might be better then the two refits. Much smaller with cheaper in br, sr, and crew costs but comparitable stats. Just need to finish some stuff up back on the home computer.
 
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