Obviously the pointy-eared bastards and the fish people are working together to drag the Federation into a war, the first so we can't interfere in their war with the Klingons, the second in order to destroy us.
 
Yeah, she's screwing up again. It's HER war and she was mulling asking for our resignation if we'd taken somewhat harder losses in a successful assault on a heavy fortification.

That's how you get Rogers type incidents where resignation requests are refused. Some people don't take being the fall guy when there's not even a need for a fall guy well.
I have to admit, the way N'Gir said "I fixed everything with a postwar reconstruction plan back in Caitian space, but everyone else ruined everything" doesn't make me think fondly of her either.

This is the mindset of a person who is really good at finding other people to blame for the consequences of her actions.

Yes - warp core production. Much harder to cripple you by taking subterfuge actions against a few key plants now.
Eddie Leslie:

"Because you just couldn't run that office on hard mode, without me in it."

[grins]

Cripes, the only remaining big E grade berth is Grand Hive of the Apiata Berth A. Could arrange for the cats at S'Naranya to suspend an auxiliary build in their A Berth, it's only a colony ship. Or can re-route the RDS Hadabat, a Turtleship, from Lor'Vela A to the 2mt berth at Irrizizza (though that is a fuckoff long trip for repairs), and that frees up that Berth for Sarek.

Edit: *sigh* I've actually botched a few things. Grand Duk A and Green Hook B are already going to be tied up because of the two badly damaged Tellarite Miranda-As. Need to think this over.
Leslie:

"Are we going to have to bump Cindy Lou?"

[looks around, bristles]

"What, everybody gives their hulls working titles!

Indeed. Starfleet normally doesn't exactly support or detract from presidential candidates, but Starfleet is also not a military.

I've a feeling that during the next election there's going to be a quiet sense coming from the culturally rather influential organisation of dissatisfaction and distrust in the incumbent's reliability and uprightness when handling the Federation's interstellar and internal relations.
That depends. So far, N'Gir has done something obnoxious, but that's it. Until we see more evidence of presidential malfeasance, I don't think we should start going 'hur hur we'll get 'em later!'
 
We're cutting it tight on the expected deadline with the current plan, but just tight. Of course the bigger problem is that there's still no final Amby design AFAIK.

There is not, but given the discussions on the ship design thread about the state of things, i would not be surprised by a call for design candidates once the Licori crisis is mostly settled. I think we were finishing up a design stage this coming research turn.
 
Imagine panic when someone on Tal Shiar secretly introduced an autocensor bot with that handle into internal communication channels.
Romulans:

"Yeah, that's always hilarious when we do it to a rival group within our own government, so it's going to be extra hilarious when we do it to you. You have one Linderley. We have thousands. It's our equivalent of the Nigerian email scam."

She does that and she is sure to get fired no matter who is president because nobody sane likes the idea of the commander of Starfleet conspiring against the Fed Council/its president...
You weren't listening, this is what she'd do after being forced to resign by a fool asinine enough to want to use her as a scapegoat in a political situation where no scapegoat was required.

That said, this can easily be her Plan Z, but the point is that even her Plan Z is quite dangerous to someone in N'Gir's position.

"So I went to Linderly in Intel, I knocked on his door and I said "LIIIINDERLY" but when I went inside there wasn't anything in there, just an empty room, there is no Linderly."

"Wolfe he's standing-"

"Is he???."

"Okay bud u need to like, chill"

"THIS GOES DEEP ALEXANDRIA"
Leslie, Grinning Trollishly:

"Have you considered the possibility of your boss getting replaced by their evil opposite? That happened to me once. My right hand still aches in pressure changes sometimes, even though McCoy said it was psychosomatic."
 
Oneiros alluded to involvement of a canon race, and we know the Romulans are involved in the Sydrax debacle too now...

I think we ought to be careful there. Heh, I just realized, if it turns out N'Gir is with the Rommies then Rogers is gonna have a field day. He might even get the Mars seat in '18 if he's level-headed enough to play his cards right.
 
As I have previously said, this is only part-way true if you subscribe to the idea that the mines we establish only feed resources right back to Starfleet, and that the Council can't re-appropriate that as seen fit. Oneiros has never said one way or another if we gain income from our outposts because they're "ours" and all output is immediately turned over to Starfleet, or if we're getting a share [maybe that big econ spreadsheet explains this]. As for diplomatic pushes it's us requesting focused diplomacy to the Council; it's highly likely the FDS does the actual pushing. Starfleet crews are expected to function as diplomats in some cases but that's mostly situational in nature, by all indications the FDS does the heavy day-to-day stuff.

I find it bizarre to claim we're the total executive when we've spent a lot of time during this crisis wrangling with the Executive and Council!

And I have seen absolutely nothing that suggest that they feed into anything but Starfleet, especially since as far I understand the logistics (nominally done by Starfleet ships towards Starfleet installations) make it pretty clear that there is no significant amount of resources going anywhere but Starfleet and noithing we have seen so far has suggested anything but our total control over those colonies... And we know that member world colonies behave very differently.


Starfleet is NOT in control of a majority of any of those things.

Industry? We MIGHT be in control of the majority of milspec starship construction. Beyond that we've got very limited industrial assets.

Colonization? No data available on relative amounts, but Starfleet "colonies" are more like specialist installations.

Foriegn diplomacy? There's a reason we use PP as our resource for that. It's because our OOC control of some portion of it is a gameplay abstraction for political horsetrading to get the people who actually control it to do what we would prefer. Note how that's the same resource we spend for budget increases or to build megastructures?

Police? Our police powers extend to incidents involving starships, incidents where our help was requested, incidents involving our people and incidents that resulted in general distress calls. That's basically how it works IRL for countries that don't split coast guard and navy.

Research? We do majority of research on technology we use, much of which has seriously limited to no civilian use. No data on non-military/non-dual use research outside of extreme general case social sciences aka Xenopsych- where we're almost certainly the leader simply because of the massive concentration of PhD equivalents with practical experience.

Intel? True.

So you've one point where you're correct, two cases where you are 100% wrong, two cases where you're mostly wrong, low on data and it's not an issue, and one case with no data.

I think you misunderstood me. I never claimed that Starfleet is the 100% in control of those functions but the fact is that even a partial control is a nightmare from an analytic standpoint. How do you expect to control Starfleet when it runs basically autonomous? You say that it doesn't matter that Starfleet directly controls the majority of shipyards and specialist industry (at least if we go by the fluff) but in my eyes this alone is enough to seriously disturb anyone with any knowledge of how a democratic government is supposed to function.

And our actions in diplomacy go far beyond pressuring the FDS to do our bidding (and really once your remove our pressure the FDS as a service has an extremely lacklustre record) but we have ample evidence of Starfleet being directly involved and or leading diplomatic talks (beyond the already Starfleet only first contacts). And that ignores the fact that without Starfleet ships those diplomats have a very hard time going anywhere (and Starfleet intelligence also likely plays a supporting major role since its the only reliable source of information).

Do you know which countries militaries fit the schema? Iran and Egypt (for example and even there they are more circumspect)! Do you know which ones are very careful not to let the military (or any other organization) amass that much power? Most functioning democracies...

Starfleet functions because its writers want it not because it makes any sense in reality.
 
I should point out that Oneiros's comments came before Akuz posted her omake, which has not yet been explicitly canonized.

Also the Romulans are involved in as much as "They were bribing people to be friendly to them" they had nothing to do with Revolution itself.

Every major power likes to keep a hand in, IRL, and in fiction. Romulans doubly so.

They have small faction in the current Sydraxian government as partisans because they spent the time ahead of time to spread bribes just in case something happened and it would come in handy. They didn't have a hand in causing anything.
 
I suppose one thing to come out of this is that we know now for certain that the development faction are not the mostly harmless Hufflepuffs of Federation council that some players initially thought of them as. The are jsut as capable of screwing things up as any of the other factions if given the chance.

If anything I think the Development faction might by the closest thing the Federation politics has to a conservative/reactionary movement. By definition they are very inward facing, seeking the prosperity of the Federation first and foremost, and capable of reacting aggressively to threats agasint that prosperity.
 
Dear KIRK I never considered we might have Mirror N'Gir!

@OneirosTheWriter how much does N'Gir like to show off her midriff?
I actually sat down and plotted out, once, what the events of Mirror, Mirror looked like from OUR side of the mirror. That is to say, with Spock, Sulu, Chekov, and the rest of the crew of the USS Enterprise receiving evil opposites of Kirk, Bones, Scotty, and Uhura... but evil opposites who are just as smart, resourceful, and cagey as their prime-universal selves.

Leslie gets the crud beaten out of him. :D
 
Wouldn't this put every government in Star Trek in the same boat? The economics of warp starships dictate that a state's military has a strong natural monopoly on all of those functions.

Not really. It is really easy to simply delegate those responsibilities away from the military. There is no need for the military to run the shipyards( or any industry), be at the forefront of diplomatic activity or maintain the only biggest intelligence agency (for example). All those could easily be their own departments/organizations under a government.
 
How do you expect to control Starfleet when it runs basically autonomous?

Starfleet isn't isolated enough to become a world unto itself or a state within a state and hence autonomous, as various examples from the SS to Basji to the Revolutionary Guard have been. Control is exercised by political, educational, and social means, pretty much exactly as control has always been exercised since militaries stopped being peasant levies and foraging and were instead able to run as self-contained units off existing supply stocks for the very brief time it takes to depose the government.

Of course I pointed this out last time but here we are again with you pushing the same narrative that makes no sense.
 
And I have seen absolutely nothing that suggest that they feed into anything but Starfleet, especially since as far I understand the logistics (nominally done by Starfleet ships towards Starfleet installations) make it pretty clear that there is no significant amount of resources going anywhere but Starfleet and noithing we have seen so far has suggested anything but our total control over those colonies... And we know that member world colonies behave very differently.
The member worlds have their own transport ships. Since warp cores are FTL WMDs, I'm not surprised that the member worlds (plus hypercorps) are the only ones with interstellar ships.

The mining colonies and research colonies are probably relatively small, if they can be set up within a short time frame.
I think you misunderstood me. I never claimed that Starfleet is the 100% in control of those functions but the fact is that even a partial control is a nightmare from an analytic standpoint. How do you expect to control Starfleet when it runs basically autonomous? You say that it doesn't matter that Starfleet directly controls the majority of shipyards and specialist industry (at least if we go by the fluff) but in my eyes this alone is enough to seriously disturb anyone with any knowledge of how a democratic government is supposed to function.
Well, nuclear material is heavily regulated IRL.

Before someone decided to privatize Uranium fuel production, the US Government was one of the few sources period.

The only reason we seemingly have so much under our control is that we rarely see anything else. The member worlds do have their own shipyards.
And our actions in diplomacy go far beyond pressuring the FDS to do our bidding (and really once your remove our pressure the FDS as a service has an extremely lacklustre record) but we have ample evidence of Starfleet being directly involved and or leading diplomatic talks (beyond the already Starfleet only first contacts). And that ignores the fact that without Starfleet ships those diplomats have a very hard time going anywhere (and Starfleet intelligence also likely plays a supporting major role since its the only reliable source of information).

Do you know which countries militaries fit the schema? Iran and Egypt (for example and even there they are more circumspect)! Do you know which ones are very careful not to let the military (or any other organization) amass that much power? Most functioning democracies...

Starfleet functions because its writers want it not because it makes any sense in reality.
When every warp-capable ship is a FTL WMD, it makes sense to have tight control.

Until we voted for duplication of critical infrastructure, the SF facilities at Venus were the primary source of warp cores throughout the Federation.

We know that there's other organizations, though. Yoyodyne notably does a lot of warp core research and development.

Starfleet functions because it does, and because there's a mostly invisible (to us) Federation outside of our control.
 
Among other things, with the sole exception of Earth, every current Federation member world sustained an independent, sovereign government that had its own warp-capable fleet, for decades if not centuries. Presumably they must have had at least limited independent shipbuilding infrastructure, and there's no reason to assume it went 'poof' in the interim.

Except that much of this industry would be useless to building Starfleet ships, which is far from the same as saying it can't build any ships at all or doesn't exist.
 
Among other things, with the sole exception of Earth, every current Federation member world sustained an independent, sovereign government that had its own warp-capable fleet, for decades if not centuries. Presumably they must have had at least limited independent shipbuilding infrastructure, and there's no reason to assume it went 'poof' in the interim.

Except that much of this industry would be useless to building Starfleet ships, which is far from the same as saying it can't build any ships at all or doesn't exist.

I don't know why you say the industry would be useless for building Starfleet ships. All of our members seem perfectly capable of building starfleet designs any time they please. In fact, I think the Apiata and the Rigellians are the only members that haven't built at least one Starfleet design, and I expect the Kepler might prove attractive enough to change even their minds.
 
Not really. It is really easy to simply delegate those responsibilities away from the military. There is no need for the military to run the shipyards( or any industry), be at the forefront of diplomatic activity or maintain the only biggest intelligence agency (for example). All those could easily be their own departments/organizations under a government.
Who do you put in charge of handling WMDs, because that's what warpcores are, if not the military? How does an independent diplomatic branch remain independent when the only source of transportation, that isn't months to years long rides at Warp 1 or Warp 2, is controlled solely by the military? How does an independent intelligence agency operate when the only way they can move assets around is by begging the military for assistance?


Basically; imagine a world in which only the Air Force were allowed to operate airplanes and ships still took weeks to months to cross the ocean. Anything and everything that was too urgent to handle via those slow boat trips would end up being folded under the Air Force's umbrella sooner or later.
 
I don't know why you say the industry would be useless for building Starfleet ships. All of our members seem perfectly capable of building starfleet designs any time they please. In fact, I think the Apiata and the Rigellians are the only members that haven't built at least one Starfleet design, and I expect the Kepler might prove attractive enough to change even their minds.
I'm imagining infrastructure that is designed to build ships much smaller than Starfleet is comfortable with, or that builds products obsolete by our standards (e.g. starships that cannot exceed Warp Six). Stuff that existed but gradually got superseded some time around, oh, the TOS era... but it still exists, just not filling frontline roles.
 
And there is nothing paramilitary about starfleet, it is fully military, like I said emphasis is in exploration followed by defense of member states, but as this scenario shows we do go on offensive wars if needed.
Of course, at this stage I am going to ask you your definition of military organization, because obviously we might be operating under different deffinitions

A military organisation is an organisation whose primary and stated duty is protecting the government, people or both it serves, and especially do so from other people and governments.

This is not true of Starfleet.

Starfleet's primary and stated duty is exploring a hostile environment for no purpose other than curiosity. Said hostile environment is dangerous, which is why it has heavy weapons and shield systems and runs its ships lightly military. This makes it easy to turn Starfleet into the Federation's combat arm if needed, but like riot cops equipped with assault rifles it's not supposed to get into that kind of a fight. And yes, I view Starfleet's ships, even its heaviest combat capable ships currently in use, as not equipped with full on war equipment.

Now, foreign ships do, but that's because foreign ships are designed from the ground up for the primary function of combat and it's entire space is designed around that facilitating that function. Again, this is not true of Starfleet ships, Starfleet ships have some weapons, but their entire load out is much lighter than it could be, with much space dedicated to laboratories, diplomatic functions and just sheer living space. If it went for full on combat you'd shove in a more potent warp core, strip out nearly every lab and every stateroom and shrink much of the living space all for the sake of shoving in more gun and shield. And Starfleet's ships would, across the board, show up with 2 or 3 more shield and combat rating than current ships on the same hull weight.

That depends. So far, N'Gir has done something obnoxious, but that's it. Until we see more evidence of presidential malfeasance, I don't think we should start going 'hur hur we'll get 'em later!'

N'Gir's behaviour throughout her tenure has indicated some degree of incapability to properly weigh the demands and risks of Starfleet's duties. Had N'Gir actually demanded Sousa's resignation much of Starfleet would've stated and written home 'what the fuck,' and Sousa would've likely quietly but actively poisoned the well by speaking with other influential people and through interviews by explaining just how poorly N'Gir was handling Starfleet.

And Starfleet may be on somewhat shaky ground, but the Biophage did much to turn that around, as did the other successes throughout the past 20 years or so of Starfleet's operations, most of which can be clearly pointed towards as Starfleet trying to keep violence off the board and willing to act diplomatically and peacefully. It's probably destroy Sousa's public career, but N'Gir and the Development faction would lose at least as much, especially since the Development faction in the Council and Starfleet have been fairly good at working together, unlike the Pacifists and Starfleet at times.
 
"I'm glad that we'll have Starfleet on board voluntarily for this," replies the President . "To be honest, I expected that I may have to drag you kicking and screaming to play your part after the battering everyone has been taking around these Arcadian worlds. If those two battlecruisers" - and here you have to physically bite your tongue - "hadn't been recoverable, I may have been forced to ask for your resignation."

"I'd say that this is what war looks like, Madam President," you say, trying to keep your tone as respectful as possible. "But to be truthful, it's usually a lot worse."

What is wrong with her? The war was her idea, albeit with our support.

And they're Explorers!


The Romulans must be amazed and appalled over how inexplicably effective Starfleet Intelligence is for how blatantly obvious they are.



They're not fucking battlecruisers! Starfleet is not a military!

I agree with the first, disagree with the second.
 
N'Gir's behaviour throughout her tenure has indicated some degree of incapability to properly weigh the demands and risks of Starfleet's duties. Had N'Gir actually demanded Sousa's resignation much of Starfleet would've stated and written home 'what the fuck,' and Sousa would've likely quietly but actively poisoned the well by speaking with other influential people and through interviews by explaining just how poorly N'Gir was handling Starfleet.

And Starfleet may be on somewhat shaky ground, but the Biophage did much to turn that around, as did the other successes throughout the past 20 years or so of Starfleet's operations, most of which can be clearly pointed towards as Starfleet trying to keep violence off the board and willing to act diplomatically and peacefully. It's probably destroy Sousa's public career, but N'Gir and the Development faction would lose at least as much, especially since the Development faction in the Council and Starfleet have been fairly good at working together, unlike the Pacifists and Starfleet at times.

I would be entirely unsurprised if Sousa spent her retirement quietly destroying N'Gir's political career. She doesn't strike me as the kind of person who stays out of politics after retiring-I could see her joining the Expansionists, for example, or even the Pacifists.
 
I would be entirely unsurprised if Sousa spent her retirement quietly destroying N'Gir's political career. She doesn't strike me as the kind of person who stays out of politics after retiring-I could see her joining the Expansionists, for example, or even the Pacifists.

I'd definitely say the Expansionists. Sousa had a real BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD moment for a second, back when they told her about the membership moratorium. She's a hard-core believer of their cause.


Well, it's looking up like this presidency is a challenge on Starfleet. Really not liking N'Gir's 'Tell me what to do cuz I have no clue and then take the blame for anything' stance. I'm missing Sh'Arrath's by now. Woman had her house in order and knew that in an emergency you had to let Starfleet off the chain and support them all the way until the crisis is dealt with. Most importantly however, she kept the office of Commander, Starfleet away from the political knife game.

Going after the closest thing you have to a military leader because of politics has always ended up in disaster. Kick them because they're doing a bad job, not because you need a scapegoat and a nice fix of good PR.
 
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