As Simon said. We don't want to rule them (maybe in a long time frame they could become an affiliate, but not something we currently care about), we don't want to conquer them (the falling war support if we actually have to land troops ....), we just want them to stop trying to blow up stars and other activities as mass destruction.
To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)
- Thread starter OneirosTheWriter
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- Sci-Fi
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- Tags
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- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Yeah.
Honestly, if the Licori had a central government worth talking to, this whole issue would probably have been settled with a quiet treaty conference long before anything blew out of control. We don't want anything they have, we don't want their territory, we don't even want to destroy their mentat supply although that'd be one way of accomplishing our war aim.
We just want them to not blow up stars or otherwise endanger galactic society at large with their science projects. Because the level of recklessness and complete indifference to the welfare of bystanders here is so great that even by Federation standards it's pretty atrocious.
Honestly, if the Licori had a central government worth talking to, this whole issue would probably have been settled with a quiet treaty conference long before anything blew out of control. We don't want anything they have, we don't want their territory, we don't even want to destroy their mentat supply although that'd be one way of accomplishing our war aim.
We just want them to not blow up stars or otherwise endanger galactic society at large with their science projects. Because the level of recklessness and complete indifference to the welfare of bystanders here is so great that even by Federation standards it's pretty atrocious.
- Location
- Tulsa Oklahoma
So right now what we are at war with isn't a nation, but a culture … well, there goes any chance of this conflict ending anytime soon. Who's willing to bet the Federation's relationship with the Lictori is likely to end up akin to Israel's relationship to Palestine?
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Nah. We just want them to stop trying to blow up the galaxy.
I'm pretty sure it's not a fundamental tenet of Licori culture that it's okay for them to blow up the galaxy, so I'm pretty sure you're barking up the wrong tree.
aeqnai
Nerdy Homu
- Location
- Laniakea Supercluster
- Pronouns
- She/Her
And if it is, then quite frankly we were entirely right to intervene when we did, because such things are not healthy for the longevity of galactic civilizations.
- Pronouns
- They/Them
No, I don't see us standing for most of the more heinous shit the Israelis pull on Palestine. I think we could retain the moral high ground and exercise control over our citizenry in order to reduce flashpoints for violence-the power of the Pacifist faction is especially helpful there. More likely, if we fail to effectively deal with the Licori problem, the Romulans will eventually decide to act, and it'll get messy.
- Location
- Sydney, Australia
On the matter of the Licori I expect the end result will likely see us negotiating treaties with some of the non-full Mentat noble houses and using them to beat full-Mentat noble houses over the head.
If we'd had more insight into the situation before hand I would have preferred a war declaration that was targeted against the individual noble houses that used the full-Mentat process rather than all of them.
If we'd had more insight into the situation before hand I would have preferred a war declaration that was targeted against the individual noble houses that used the full-Mentat process rather than all of them.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Yeah. Let's not take this as yet another pretext to start 'contingency planning' about the entirely gratuitous, pointless, and unnecessary things we could hypothetically imagine inflicting on someone. Not when the simple answer is to blow up enough of the Great Houses' material wealth that they become responsive to pressure to make terms. We don't even have to overthrow any of the houses, necessarily, we just have to persuade them it's in their best interests to stop... Because the interstellar community has a concept called 'liability' and a concept called 'punitive damages,' and they don't want to get thwacked.
lbmaian
a thirsty squirrel
- Location
- USA
[X] Plan Finish The Buildup
Having more engineering team in the short-run is fine with regards to components availability, since we do have a stock of outposts and starbase components to use up. Unless you want to build a 1x3mt repair berth. That said, I want a heavy industry team to repair or speed up ship production.
Although that does open up the question of which ship should be rushed. We have 2 Excelsiors and 1 Connie-B scheduled to complete in 3 months, and 2x construction rate would at most make them available sometime next month. We have 2 Miranda-As with ETC 2316Q1 that we can make 2315Q4 (that is, start of Q4), and 2 Miranda-A refits with ETC 2315Q3 that we can make finish 3 months from now instead. Those are the only Starfleet ships in production that are scheduled to complete this year.
edit: Oh yeah, we could rush the Vulcan Connie-B with ETC 2317Q1 - might get some war support from that, who knows? We'll see if the Betazed starbase rushing helps war support very soon - it now has ETC this quarter.
There is the temptation to use the "rush all ships in shipyard option" but that takes 9 months and is only efficient on Utopia Planitia, which apart from the 2 Excelsiors with ETC 2315Q2, have no ship builds that would complete in 2315 even with the 1 quarter reduction.
Escape pods look possible. Out of the four sample battle logs, we had 2 "destroyed by secondary damage causing a warp core breach" and 4 "has suffered a Warp Core Breach, all hands lost!"
Having more engineering team in the short-run is fine with regards to components availability, since we do have a stock of outposts and starbase components to use up. Unless you want to build a 1x3mt repair berth. That said, I want a heavy industry team to repair or speed up ship production.
Although that does open up the question of which ship should be rushed. We have 2 Excelsiors and 1 Connie-B scheduled to complete in 3 months, and 2x construction rate would at most make them available sometime next month. We have 2 Miranda-As with ETC 2316Q1 that we can make 2315Q4 (that is, start of Q4), and 2 Miranda-A refits with ETC 2315Q3 that we can make finish 3 months from now instead. Those are the only Starfleet ships in production that are scheduled to complete this year.
edit: Oh yeah, we could rush the Vulcan Connie-B with ETC 2317Q1 - might get some war support from that, who knows? We'll see if the Betazed starbase rushing helps war support very soon - it now has ETC this quarter.
There is the temptation to use the "rush all ships in shipyard option" but that takes 9 months and is only efficient on Utopia Planitia, which apart from the 2 Excelsiors with ETC 2315Q2, have no ship builds that would complete in 2315 even with the 1 quarter reduction.
Escape pods look possible. Out of the four sample battle logs, we had 2 "destroyed by secondary damage causing a warp core breach" and 4 "has suffered a Warp Core Breach, all hands lost!"
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- Location
- USA
Another thing to point out is it looks like the problems are mainly from two Houses amongst the Licori, not all of the Licori houses. I think that long term we can find peace with them but we need to help them do a little house cleaning first.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
If the Federation can figure out how to interfere with the procedures that induce stellar core collapse, that could also remove the threat of exploding stars. Given how close that one licori ship was to the star when Courageous got smacked by accident, it's presumably a rather finicky process.
- Location
- Australia
So have we directed fleet assets towards a particular house? Would it be possible to direct actions at the two most agregious houses space-infrastructure (ships, starbases, yards) then sue for peace?
With the way war weariness looks about to play out, we should probably focus on internal diplomacy targeting Federation media and anti-war groups. The Federation Diplomatic Service Consular Team 3 is currently unassigned, and should probably be pointed at the Betazed, Though it's real tempting to federalise a bunch of Vulcan ships and place them on the front line.
[x] Plan Engineers, Industry, Doctrine
With the way war weariness looks about to play out, we should probably focus on internal diplomacy targeting Federation media and anti-war groups. The Federation Diplomatic Service Consular Team 3 is currently unassigned, and should probably be pointed at the Betazed, Though it's real tempting to federalise a bunch of Vulcan ships and place them on the front line.
[x] Plan Engineers, Industry, Doctrine
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Heavy industry teams are cheap and desirable for ship construction in the short run, in addition to being necessary for our engineering teams to keep working at peak efficiency. Moreover, we need to start the industry teams working now on projects the engineers will be putting together in the second quarter, so we can't afford to wait until our stockpile of components is run down.
In general I'd prefer to rush the ships closest to completion in order to empty as many berths as possible. Eaton's going to be fighting her first round of battles within the next two to four weeks, and we're going to have a lot of ships in the hospital.
I hope not; I'd like to think Vulcans are logical.
In a long war against, say, Cardassia, I'd be in favor of this. Here, it's not helpful. The reason we want to rush ships isn't because we want more ships. It's so we can get ships done and clear berth space for repairs.
Jeez but I hope so, especially if random critical hits blowing away the warp cores of otherwise intact and functional ships is going to be a thing on a regular basis.
R. Adm. Victoria Eaton:
"Ai direct you to the entire contents of my report, which has already crossed your desk, outlining the targets of the upcoming offensive."
[sips tea]
...
No seriously, the last report on the state of emergency literally just said that Eaton was planning to isolate and attack the primary star system of the most obnoxious of the four major houses
Thaaaat sounds ominous.
I'm not so sure. Shoring up war support in reluctant star systems is one good use for the team, but we need to think about the issue a bit.
...That's a terrible idea. Why would we ever want to do that?
The problem is, I'm pretty sure we'd have to show up in real time to prevent the process- there's unlikely to be a way to "vaccinate" stars against being disrupted by the Licori devices.
Therefore, the Licori devices will remain effective as weapons, because the only way to stop them is to chase after them in a ship and go where they go. But if you can do that anyway, then you could just stop them from disrupting the star using simpler, more robust techniques. Such as vaporizing the Licori ship with a photon torpedo.
The Fleet is already en-route to one of the Nobel worlds.
I have a question:
Is it possible to create a role intended for an older class?
Because I remember a bit ago, people were talking about leaving explorer-grade ships to the explorer corps with regular starfleet getting cruisers and below. I never liked that idea, because I think Starfleet will always have a place and need for big gun and big science ships. I had the brain bug: What about leaving the newer explorers to the Explorer Corps(with maybee a few making thier way into the fleets in the 'hottest' areas) and our older explorer class being a Starfleet Vessel as a 'Garrison Explorer'. It's better than nothing, and more economically viable. The obvios way this would work is when the Ambassador comes in, we gradually filter the Excelsiors out of the Explorer Corps and into Garrison roles across federation space....and we do the same to the Ambassador when the Galaxy/Galaxy equivelent comes into play.
Is it possible to create a role intended for an older class?
Because I remember a bit ago, people were talking about leaving explorer-grade ships to the explorer corps with regular starfleet getting cruisers and below. I never liked that idea, because I think Starfleet will always have a place and need for big gun and big science ships. I had the brain bug: What about leaving the newer explorers to the Explorer Corps(with maybee a few making thier way into the fleets in the 'hottest' areas) and our older explorer class being a Starfleet Vessel as a 'Garrison Explorer'. It's better than nothing, and more economically viable. The obvios way this would work is when the Ambassador comes in, we gradually filter the Excelsiors out of the Explorer Corps and into Garrison roles across federation space....and we do the same to the Ambassador when the Galaxy/Galaxy equivelent comes into play.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
I don't see why we couldn't do that... but I don't think we need to.
The "role" system isn't in place so that we have roles for every ship and every ship in a role. It's so that the Council has a clear picture of what types of ships Starfleet thinks it needs going forward. If we already have a pile of Excelsiors, the Council isn't going to pick a fight over how we use them as 'anchor ships' for sector garrisons or whatever. It's if we wanted to design an entirely new ship that we'd need to start by specifying a requirement (say, "we need a ship of 1.8 to 2.5 million tons that can do blah blah blah"). And then we might have trouble if the requirement was something that existing ship designs could already do ("why can't you just use your many Excelsiors for that?")
The "role" system isn't in place so that we have roles for every ship and every ship in a role. It's so that the Council has a clear picture of what types of ships Starfleet thinks it needs going forward. If we already have a pile of Excelsiors, the Council isn't going to pick a fight over how we use them as 'anchor ships' for sector garrisons or whatever. It's if we wanted to design an entirely new ship that we'd need to start by specifying a requirement (say, "we need a ship of 1.8 to 2.5 million tons that can do blah blah blah"). And then we might have trouble if the requirement was something that existing ship designs could already do ("why can't you just use your many Excelsiors for that?")
- Location
- Central Standard Time
Random thought: Once we get a ship:sector ratio of 5, Oneiros might start enforcing maintenance. IRL, you need about 5 ships for each one deployed
.
Potential future mechanic?
.Potential future mechanic?
lbmaian
a thirsty squirrel
- Location
- USA
What components do you intend the heavy industry team to produce then?
We have components for 2 outposts and 1 starbase now and 2x1mt repair yard berths in 2 months. We don't need more at the moment, since we don't have the engineering teams to use them up yet. So do we intend to build a 1x3mt repair yard berth or one of the ship yard berths?
Let's compare rushing a ship that would complete one quarter from now vs two quarters from now.
Scenario A: Suppose that rushing a ship that would complete three months from now, instead makes them finish in next month and a half, and suppose that a damaged ship is waiting on that berth to be freed. Then we get one ship 1.5 months faster, and repair of the damaged ship is delayed by 1.5 months.
Scenario B: Suppose that rushing a ship that would complete at six months from now, instead makes them finish three months from now, and suppose that a damaged ship is waiting on that berth to be freed. Then we get one ship 3 months faster, and repair of the damaged ship is delayed by 3 months.
So it's a wash. But this all hinges on the assumptions of how many ships will get damaged and when. There's a decent chance that we'll still have enough berths for repairs in the first three months, which then makes scenario B superior in my eyes.
So I'd rather rush one the Miranda-A refits so that we get the following wave of finished-by-Q2 ships: Courageous repair/refit, Intrepid refit, Pathfinder, Sojourner, Connie-B (don't remember name, if it has been named). And the Kumari repair though she's being sent back to the GBZ.
Logical, but as the updates have shown, hardly immune to emotional appeals. Like I said, wait until the Betazed starbase and Onos outposts to finish and see if the Betazed war support changes.
lbmaian
a thirsty squirrel
- Location
- USA
Well, the tactical role system does seem to be expanding in use cases. Used to just be guiding new ship designs and maybe doctrines, now probably encompasses rules of engagement and which ships participate in which battle phases.
So it's conceivable that we could have a new role. But the situation is still unclear, and Oneiros has already indicated that ships can remain in their current roles for the time being, even the Constellation.
Random thought: Once we get a ship:sector ratio of 5, Oneiros might start enforcing maintenance. IRL, you need about 5 ships for each one deployed
Potential future mechanic?
That already exists. Ships and bases have small cargo requirements, and auxiliary ships (primarily cargo ships) can supply that. See GBZ status post for an example.
edit: Oh you said maintenance rather than upkeep. Maintenance is performed behind the scenes refits at starbases and so forth, as some updates have indicated.
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- Location
- Australia
I feel if that was the case you would think they would back an intervention on supernova level experimentation near federation space. After all the needs of the many (All sapient life in galaxy) outweigh the needs of the few (Mentat curiosity).
My plan was more shaping the Federation operations as a police action and enforcing a no-flyzone type deal. Rather then WAR as the protests seem to be describing things.
Not in a police state type deal, more getting out in front of the war PR and reshaping the debate to intervention to preserve life etc. Where is the discussion about coreworlds being threatened by unethical experimentation?
That was a joke.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
I think the combination of the combat cap and needing to maintain heavy fleets in border zones will prevent us from reaching that extreme a state.Random thought: Once we get a ship:sector ratio of 5, Oneiros might start enforcing maintenance. IRL, you need about 5 ships for each one deployed
Potential future mechanic?
I'd seriously consider the three-megaton repair berth option, it's not like we couldn't use one in the long term. I think stockpiling outpost parts may also be desireable, because we may want to build a LOT of outposts, significantly more than two, and we may want them all done within 3-6 months.
There's a chance, but it's inherently rather uncertain. We've committed a lot of ships, and if a significant proportion of them take damage it's going to add up quickly.
Plus there's the possibility of the Cardassians doing something aggressive in the Gabriel Expanse and forcing us to repair even more ships, since they know the bulk of our forces are busy elsewhere.
It really isn't so important to me whether we rush the ships with three versus six months on the clock- what matter to me is not committing to rushing ships with one to two years on the clock. That's the point where I start worrying that we're exploiting the state of emergency to accomplish goals that don't have anything to do with the actual emergency.
Vulcan:
"Purely as an exercise in logic, permit me to outline the lines of reasoning you have overlooked.
"Firstly, there are a variety of deontological ethical systems, analogous to that of Kant on Earth, in which there are certain principles it is never logical to follow, even if they seem expedient at a particular time. In Kant's case, the thesis is that one should always act according to maxims that one would will others to act upon universally and consistently. In this case, we might will that the Licori be forcibly restrained from
their reckless experiments. However, we did not will that the Klingons invade the Federation after hearing of the Genesis project or other such radical technologies. If we cannot consistently will that all actors use force to restrain others from any experiment they deem reckless, we must be at least reluctant and at most unwilling to use force to restrain others from an experiment we deem reckless.
"Secondly, there is a more utilitarian argument. In particular, one based on the recognition of the limits of sapient beings as rational actors. Evolved drives and impulses make most sapient species territorial, irrational, and overly suspicious at times. Among these times are situations where violence is viewed as a feasible way of enforcing one's will. Therefore, as violence seems more likely we can expect to see ourselves suffering greater and greater cognitive biases in favor of further violence.
"The only way to counteract this tendency is to pre-commit, well in advance, to avoid violence until all other options are exhausted. But a person who thus pre-commits to avoid the biases that drive them to violence will, by nature, continue to oppose violence past the point where others fall prey to their biases. They will therefore be seen as excessively and... irrationally... committed to peace at prices other sapients perceive as unreasonable."
I don't have a very coherent sense of what your plan was, how it was intended to work, and what you expected the Licori reaction to be. I do know that the normal practice in this game is for us to appoint subordinates, and for operational details to be handled by those subordinates in keeping with their own personalities and values. In general, we only make specific, detailed decisions about strategy when those decisions are binary. We don't spend piles of time sitting around drafting memos on overall planning of a campaign. And frankly that's probably just as well given that it's not like any of us have a great advantage in command experience or tactical skill compared to the QM who's running all those subordinate commanders' decision-making processes.
What makes you think such discussion is not already taking place? This is Starfleet Quest, not "entire Federation political structure" quest. If you burn energy trying to figure out ways for Starfleet to nose its way into a purely political debate about the merits of the war Starfleet is fighting, you are likely either to waste that energy, or to succeed in ways that may make the situation worse due to inexperience.
- Location
- Australia
Maintenance cycles is my go-to narrative explanation for ships failing response rolls.Random thought: Once we get a ship:sector ratio of 5, Oneiros might start enforcing maintenance. IRL, you need about 5 ships for each one deployed
Potential future mechanic?
Four+ ships in sector. Hard DC event occurs. Everyone fails the show up roll. Boy, the local maintenance team was busy that month!
- Location
- madison
one was in for maintenance, one was on the other end of the system, one was suffering comm trouble and one blew an EPS trying to make it their in time.
Or be lazy and due to subspace conditions the distress call wasn't received until everyone was already dead.
Or be lazy and due to subspace conditions the distress call wasn't received until everyone was already dead.
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