To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)

OneirosTheWriter · Apr 17, 2017

Briefvoice said:
@OneirosTheWriter asking directly on the Amarkian question....

Does it seem like they have "enough" civilian shipping in the pipeline to handle their expansion or are we actually identifying a real potential problem by asking them to focus on cargo shipping? I'm going by the economic breakdown you posted, but @lbmaian is certainly correct they have ships being built right now. Would this be a reasonable alteration of priorities, or pushing them to build ships they don't need?

Fwiw, I've slotted in four builds for the Amarkians this turn - a Hebrinda-A (NCC-2407), a Brieca (NCC-2309), and a wartime rushjob Cargo Ship and Freighter. In addition to this they have two Repair/Refits in progress with CAS Jolintoor and Odala, another Hebrinda-A (NCC-2406), a Cargo Ship, and a Prospector. Their current level of utilisation is high, but they are on a Limited Mobilisation, so that's to be somewhat expected.

The strain on Small Cargo, however, is especially acute, and they can probably afford to put emphasis on that.

UberJJK · Apr 17, 2017

Erandil said:
And I would actually be in favour of declining the Caitan question to ensure they don't overextend

Sending them into the GBZ might be good for the Caitan economy. The GBZ has plenty of rich mining sites and colonizable worlds, even though we're not allowing that yet, for them to grab. That could give their economy the boost needed to get out of it's post-war slump.

lbmaian · Apr 17, 2017

OneirosTheWriter said:
Fwiw, I've slotted in four builds for the Amarkians this turn - a Hebrinda-A (NCC-2407), a Brieca (NCC-2309), and a wartime rushjob Cargo Ship and Freighter. In addition to this they have two Repair/Refits in progress with CAS Jolintoor and Odala, another Hebrinda-A (NCC-2406), a Cargo Ship, and a Prospector. Their current level of utilisation is high, but they are on a Limited Mobilisation, so that's to be somewhat expected.

The strain on Small Cargo, however, is especially acute, and they can probably afford to put emphasis on that.

Can you clarify what the negative impact of logistics strain has? Like, I understand that member fleets would be annoyed at us for using them when they're >50% strain on small org bulk cargo. But does mild strain that translate to actual negative effects on their economy or their expansion?

Caitians are far below the 50% utilization threshold, yet they're having economic problems, so logistics strain is either not a factor or not the sole factor there. In the TBG version of mercantilism in practice here, perhaps that means they need more resource colonies?

We also know that fleet upkeep is relatively cheap. A single cargo ship can sustain Amarki's full task force in the GBZ (1 explorer, 2 cruisers, 5 frigates).

Only mining colonies, construction projects, and starbases require significant investment of cargo ships. And the Amarki have already sent 3 cargo ships, 2 freighters, and 1 super-freighter to the GBZ, which is greater overall capacity than the Apiata's 6 Bumblebees, although less small cargo capacity.

So in practice, what is the problem with just 55% small cargo utilization for the Amarki?

tryrar · Apr 17, 2017

[X] Briefvoice

pbluekan · Apr 17, 2017

[X][PRIORITY] Change nothing [Weighted 1.5x]

The Amarki already are building cargo ships. I see little reason to suggest they draw back laying down the Riala-A, especially when I feel it is something they are unlikely to do. We may not be spending political capital to do it, but there are repercussions.

[X][TSF] 1 Renaissance
[X][AG] Leave open for repairs
[X][VHC] Constellation-P Refit support (-15rp)
[X][REN] Endorse the tech transfer (-5pp)

I still have my misgivings about transferring a brand new design to the Caldonians, as it is a blatant breach of already leaky op-sec, but they are practically members as is, and I haven't heard any noise over their internal issues, so I think they're fixed.

[X][CATS] Push for GBZ yellow-light (-10pp)

While a part of me wants to indulge in a little schadenfreude and send them to the LBZ where their president sent us, Ainsworth needs the backup, and the economic boon from pushing into the GBZ should help alleviate their issues in the mid to long term.

Void Stalker · Apr 17, 2017

OneirosTheWriter said:
Fwiw, I've slotted in four builds for the Amarkians this turn - a Hebrinda-A (NCC-2407), a Brieca (NCC-2309), and a wartime rushjob Cargo Ship and Freighter. In addition to this they have two Repair/Refits in progress with CAS Jolintoor and Odala, another Hebrinda-A (NCC-2406), a Cargo Ship, and a Prospector. Their current level of utilisation is high, but they are on a Limited Mobilisation, so that's to be somewhat expected.

The strain on Small Cargo, however, is especially acute, and they can probably afford to put emphasis on that.

That would be helped by the cargo ship under production and the war time rush as cargo ships give 8 to small cargo, freighter gives 4. Can we have the repair times for the 2 Herbinda and have the 3 Stingers finished repairs?

[X][TSF] 1 Renaissance
[X][AG] Leave open for repairs
[X][VHC] Constellation-P Refit support (-15rp)
[X][CATS] Push for GBZ yellow-light (-10pp)
[X][REN] Endorse the tech transfer (-5pp)
[X][PRIORITY] Change nothing [Weighted 1.5x]

RP we have enough for all our tech teams and then some, with 2 quarters to go. Using some of the RP to get the garrison constellation refit out is great. Renaissance has Tellar start a modern cruiser and leave one bay open, as for the Andorians I would rather they save their resources for another Renaissance. Caldonians are joining as soon as the moratorium is done so lets get them up to speed now.
Right now their science cruiser is C 3 S 4 H 3 L 3 P 3 D 2. This will give them a solid combat ship to add, and they already have 5 science cruisers with a 6th under construction.

Yellow-light the Caitians is great, both to help them hopefully pull out of their economic slump and also to get more forces into the GBZ (where they can gain resources). Plus Dawiar may start to wonder if it may not be better to flip to us.

@Briefvoice for ease of reference, on both the individual page and the member page it has total cargo capacity.
To Boldly Go Civilian
To Boldly Go Members

Briefvoice · Apr 17, 2017

Void Stalker said:
Plus Dawiar may start to wonder if it may not be better to flip to us.

You know, people keep saying this. What would you do if the Cardassians did Greenlight the Dawiar for Gabriel? It would be an awful long way to travel since they'd have to go around the Federation, but in theory the Dawiar could travel Spinwards to Cardassian space, then Corewards up through the Cardassian entry point.

lbmaian · Apr 17, 2017

OneirosTheWriter said:
Okay, implemented some changes.

Thankee

I'll try taking a closer look later if I have time (way too tempted to waste hours data mining this though...)

Turn 54 - Ship USS Lexington is firing upon Ship USS Shanghai
Damage roll - Hitpower 4.15 vs Shields 24.69
Ship USS Shanghai Shields reduced to 20.45
Damage has penetrated Shields, residual power 2.03
Ship USS Shanghai reduced to 17.97 Hp by burn-through

So the shield burn-through effectively dealing extra damage is not a bug? This is dealing a total of 4.15*1.02=4.24 damage to shields, and then an additional 2.03 damage to hull.

I don't get why this is needed. It's not like extra shield points from shield regen counters shield burn-through anyway, so the extra damage is just extraneous from my perspective.

Is this just a general nerfing of shield effectiveness, considering how generally more powerful they are than hull?

USS Sarek, USS Excelsior, TSS Krinuk
USS Blizzard, USS Lightning, USS Torbriel
USS Lexington, UES Calgary

This is helpful.

Formatting nit: should mention the phase names here.
All my other formatting feedback still stands.

Void Stalker · Apr 17, 2017

Briefvoice said:
You know, people keep saying this. What would you do if the Cardassians did Greenlight the Dawiar for Gabriel? It would be an awful long way to travel since they'd have to go around the Federation, but in theory the Dawiar could travel Spinwards to Cardassian space, then Corewards up through the Cardassian entry point.

They could try, but unless they want to try to shoot the gap at Salamis they have to loop south of the Seyek and Qolathi then move through all of Cardassian space. Caitians get to take the straight line through fed space.

And that really opens themselves up for any pirates as that is a huge area to patrol. Plus there was a crystalline entity operating along the path they would need to take. And finally one of their concerns with Fed membership was the end of ambition. Now they can see proof that membership does not mean an end to their own expansion.

Random Member · Apr 17, 2017

Briefvoice said:
You know, people keep saying this. What would you do if the Cardassians did Greenlight the Dawiar for Gabriel? It would be an awful long way to travel since they'd have to go around the Federation, but in theory the Dawiar could travel Spinwards to Cardassian space, then Corewards up through the Cardassian entry point.

Question is, are the Cardassians willing to give up potential resources in Gabriel to yet another client race when they could take them for themselves?

UberJJK · Apr 17, 2017

[X][TSF] 1 Renaissance
[X][AG] Leave open for repairs
[X][VHC] Constellation-P Refit support (-15rp)
[X][CATS] Push for GBZ yellow-light (-10pp)
[X][REN] Decline
[X][PRIORITY] Change nothing [Weighted 1.5x]

I'm going to be the odd man out and decline the Caladonian's request. We've never granted an affiliate access to the latest Federation designs, I just checked the previous MWCOs, and I don't think we should start now. Regardless of the fact they'll be full on members in the next couple years I don't like the precedence this sets. Some things, such as top of the line starship designs, should be restricted to full members only.

Simon_Jester · Apr 17, 2017

[X][TSF] Leave open for repairs
[X][AG] Leave open for repairs

I'd rather have more repair options rather than less.

[X][VHC] Constellation-P Refit support (-15rp)

So this is how we obtain the Constellation-P!

[X][CATS] Push for GBZ yellow-light (-10pp)

This will have economic benefits for the Caitians, military benefits for us, and if the Caitians can get a modest task force over there it'll help shore up our security in the region. Plus trolling the Dawiar.

lbmaian said:
Ooh partial shield burn-through. Realistic (or rather, closer to canon), although there was earlier concern about this being susceptible to the law of averages problem. The other mitigations (larger damage variance, critical hits, limited battle size engagements) hopefully are enough. Also, if shield burn-through doesn't scale with shield integrity, I'm still worried about the viability of Apiata Stingers.

That's one hell of a "critical hit". I hope that the chance for warp core breach or other critical subsystem damage depends on the hull integrity - I'd hate for our Excelsiors to get fluked by a critical hit when it was at 100% HP.

Conversely I'd feel pretty bad about a battle we won because an enemy starbase randomly detonated from a stray "golden BB" that penetrated and critted when their shields were still at 50% and their hull was untouched. I mean, these ships are presumably designed with some degree of armoring and internal bracing and structural layout to protect their key components. And it is the norm in Star Trek that to destroy an enemy ship you either have to engage in blatant hacks, or you have to gradually batter down their defenses a bit at a time. You never or hardly ever see a ship blow up the instant after it's at "shields are at 80% and holding, sir!"

cokerpilot · Apr 17, 2017

[X][TSF] 1 Renaissance
[X][AG] Leave open for repairs
[X][VHC] Constellation-P Refit support (-15rp)
[X][CATS] Push for GBZ yellow-light (-10pp)
[X][REN] Endorse the tech transfer (-5pp)
[X][PRIORITY] Change nothing

OneirosTheWriter · Apr 17, 2017

lbmaian said:
Can you clarify what the negative impact of logistics strain has? Like, I understand that member fleets would be annoyed at us for using them when they're >50% strain on small org bulk cargo. But does mild strain that translate to actual negative effects on their economy or their expansion?

Caitians are far below the 50% utilization threshold, yet they're having economic problems, so logistics strain is either not a factor or not the sole factor there. In the TBG version of mercantilism in practice here, perhaps that means they need more resource colonies?

We also know that fleet upkeep is relatively cheap. A single cargo ship can sustain Amarki's full task force in the GBZ (1 explorer, 2 cruisers, 5 frigates).

Only mining colonies, construction projects, and starbases require significant investment of cargo ships. And the Amarki have already sent 3 cargo ships, 2 freighters, and 1 super-freighter to the GBZ, which is greater overall capacity than the Apiata's 6 Bumblebees, although less small cargo capacity.

So in practice, what is the problem with just 55% small cargo utilization for the Amarki?

Caitian woes, like Orion woes, are unrelated to this system and are closer to a narrative basis.

Strain is there mostly as a warning that you have very little room for error. A full mobilisation will probably leave you well short of hulls, you won't be able to pad out your engineering teams to run construction efficiently, and the loss of even a few ships to wolf packs could leave you with income shortfalls. The key part of the Amarki situation you need to remember is that this is them at partial Mobilisation.

Simon_Jester · Apr 17, 2017

[After reading the latest wargame]

Enterprise, sitting on the ground with her head in her hands and little cartoon birdies circling around her head after the latest round of phaser tag:

"Told you keeping up with Sarek was tough sometimes"

[cut to a Vulcan in a Starfleet uniform, with shimmering blue eyes, holding a biiiig rubber mallet behind her back and trying not to look smug]

Briefvoice said:
You know, people keep saying this. What would you do if the Cardassians did Greenlight the Dawiar for Gabriel? It would be an awful long way to travel since they'd have to go around the Federation, but in theory the Dawiar could travel Spinwards to Cardassian space, then Corewards up through the Cardassian entry point.

I think the sheer length of the supply lines involved would be a prohibitive strain. The Dawiar don't have many ships, or fast ones. Individual Dawiar ships showing up might do fine, but any resources they obtained there would be very difficult to return to the homeworld.

OneirosTheWriter · Apr 17, 2017

Simon_Jester said:
cut to a Vulcan

Simon_Jester said:
trying not to look smug

Now there's a Vulcan with ambitions!

lbmaian · Apr 17, 2017

Okay, this stood out to me from the combat logs:

OneirosTheWriter said:
UES Calgary - Combat 3.00/3, Shield 25.92/30, Hull 20.00/20 - Crew 1-2-1/1-2-1 - Ships killed: 0 - Status:
Fired: 12, Fired On: 7, Hits Received: 4, Damage Dealt: 17.46
...
Turn 124 - Ship USS Enterprise is firing upon Ship UES Calgary
Turn 124 - Critical Hit! Ship USS Enterprise on UES Calgary
Damage roll - Hitpower 35.33 vs Shields 25.92
Ship UES Calgary Shields reduced to 0.00
Ship UES Calgary has lost shields.
Ship UES Calgary reduced to 10.59 Hp
Turn 124 - Ship UES Calgary has suffered magazine antimatter containment failure! Suffers 30 hp damage.
Ship 1 has taken casualties: 1/0/0 out of 1/2/1
Turn 124 - The UES Calgary has suffered a Warp Core Breach, all hands lost! Destroyed by USS Enterprise
The UES Calgary has been disabled.

This is an example of a frigate with 86.4% shield integrity, 100% hull integrity, getting dumpstered in a single hit!

So uh... I know we wanted battles to be more lethal, but this is quite extreme?

OneirosTheWriter · Apr 17, 2017

lbmaian said:
Okay, this stood out to me from the combat logs:

This is an example of a frigate with 86.4% shield integrity, 100% hull integrity, getting dumpstered in a single hit!

So uh... I know we wanted battles to be more lethal, but this is quite extreme?

Wondered how long it would take before someone spotted that one.

I told people high Combat was getting a bit of a boost.

When the Enterprise comes head hunting, she can really make a mess.

Shard · Apr 17, 2017

That's a lot damage from critical hits.

Void Stalker · Apr 17, 2017

lbmaian said:
Okay, this stood out to me from the combat logs:

This is an example of a frigate with 86.4% shield integrity, 100% hull integrity, getting dumpstered in a single hit!

So uh... I know we wanted battles to be more lethal, but this is quite extreme?

That is a ton of damage for a hit... maybe the values need to be tweaked a bit.

Though that means the new Seyek cap ship is a monster with its C 9. And the Honiani have a C8 or C9 monster as well if I recall correctly.

Briefvoice · Apr 17, 2017

lbmaian said:
This is an example of a frigate with 86.4% shield integrity, 100% hull integrity, getting dumpstered in a single hit!

So uh... I know we wanted battles to be more lethal, but this is quite extreme?

To be fair, that was a hit from a Combat 10 ship on a frigate. You do not want the Enterprise to land a critical hit on you because they really can blow up a ship in a single hit.

Jenny · Apr 17, 2017

OneirosTheWriter said:
USS Enterprise - Combat 0.00/9

Should be C10 - 6+3 (Elite)+1 (Samhaya).

Void Stalker · Apr 17, 2017

High C Ships:
Cardassian Largot C7 (they have 2 I think)
Seyek Battleship C9 (1) Cruiser C7 (4) Destroyer C6 (2)
Qolath Arqueniou Leb Nen C7 (1 under construction)
Honiani Basilica of Lakhept C8 (1), Basilica C6 (1 active and 1 under construction)
Amarkia Riala C6 (3)
Andor Exceslior C6 (1 under construction)
Caitian Exceslior C6 (1)
UESPA Exceslior C6 (1)
Tellar Exceslior C6 (1)
Rigellian Megatortise C6 (1 active and 1 under construction)
Starfleet Excelsior C6 (10 and 4 under construction) Excelsior-A C7 (2 under construction)

Veteran Starfleet Ships:
Cheron C6
Kumari C7
Enterprise C10
Courageous C8
Sarek C8
S'harien C8

Enterprise is queen, but we have a few other monsters (like the Seyek with their 4 Cruiser and 1 Battleship... those can lay the hurt down).

Forgothrax · Apr 17, 2017

Starbases are now incredibly potent, sine they're going to be the only single units in the game that will hit 10+C regularly.

Leila Hann · Apr 17, 2017

[X][TSF] 1 Renaissance

One solid cruiser laid down, and one berth left open to handle repairs from the Licori War.

[X][AG] Leave open for repairs.

If resources are that scarce right now, we'd better save them - and the berth - for repairs.

[X][VHC] Constellation-P Refit support (-15rp)

We want that Constie refit badly. If the Vulcans getting to use it first is what that will take, so be it.

[X][CATS] Push for GBZ yellow-light (-10pp)

Caitians need to expand. We need reinforcements against the Cardassians. Its the obvious choice.

[X][REN] Decline

I'd normally be happy to share tech with our close affiliates, but the Caldonians are going through some serious political turmoil right now, and I don't want their rennie to end up stolen by anti-vaxxers. Tell them that they can have the rennie blueprints once they've gotten their shit together.

To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)

Cabal Core Commander

a thirsty squirrel

Somethin's Fucky ...

a thirsty squirrel

Gardener of Human Happiness

Temp Banned

Here comes the rain.

Cabal Core Commander

Temp Banned

Cabal Core Commander

a thirsty squirrel

Cabal Core Commander

One and Many

anonymous user

Not Going Gently