To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)

Algalon · Apr 7, 2017

The most hilarious part is that, according to Sousa when she took over, the FDS is apparently a political leviathan and that it was amazing how Kahurangi managed to circumvent them.

Really not seeing how they got that reputation. Is it because they do too much politics and too little diplomacy?

cast2007 · Apr 7, 2017

Sousa: I want to fire the head of the FDS...out of the Enterprise's torpedo tube!

Seriously given the level of screw ups either the FDS either needs a major funding increase or we need to take over their portfolio

Leila Hann · Apr 7, 2017

One way I could see this not being completely the FDS' fault is if the Emperor deliberately misled them into thinking he had much more power than he did, in order to prevent them from dealing directly with the other houses and potentially undermining his own family's supremacy by allying with one of the others.

If this is the case, the FDS are still incredibly gullible for letting an alien tinpot warlord run circles around them and in need of new management, but at least they wouldn't be criminally negligent.

Simon_Jester · Apr 7, 2017

ATTENTION EVERYBODY:

I am 'retconning' the old version of Plan Iron Lady. Second version will be remaining in place.

chriswriter90 said:
Wait what? What the hell happened?

This is such a colossal fuckup, it boggles the mind!

Really, I can totally see this involving no fuckups whatsoever, EXCEPT perhaps for a lack of clear communication, or a president who isn't listening to what their FDS chief is telling them, or an FDS chief who is trying really hard to do what they're told to do and doesn't want to give up and say "fuckit, it's impossible, we're screwed" until the last minute.

Out of a cannon and into the sun! I would totally be on board with tearing down the FDS and rebuilding it from scratch if we had the time to do so.

How, precisely, would you do significantly better in the time available than they did?

Briefvoice · Apr 7, 2017

OneirosTheWriter said:
The new, easier to follow (well, if you ever saw the old spreadsheet, anyway) logistics model.

Could you edit in a definition of "br" and "sr" and "rp" and what makes each of them matter to start with? I think that part of what makes this confusing is not having that initial grounding of why all this matters.

Starfleet Logistics Network

9 Freighters, 20 Cargo Ships assigned to networks
-5 Freighters, -8 Cargo Ships free for other tasks
Currently having to federalize a large number of cargo vessels

Wows, we're that far underwater.

SynchronizedWritersBlock · Apr 7, 2017

chriswriter90 said:
Wait what? What the hell happened?

This is such a colossal fuckup, it boggles the mind!

Let's fix it, then, instead of continuing to beat the war drums. The right advice and the right assets can put us on the path we need to be on.

Briefvoice said:
I see where you're making the mistake. They can set a unified foreign policy just fine. The trouble is that this particular foreign policy deal requires heavy intervention in the domestic policy of mentat production.

That's the essential conundrum here. If we were talking about setting borders or dividing up colony sites or something like that, the Emperor could negotiate just fine. It's this particular case, where aliens want to intervene in a domestic resources, that has them so screwed up. The mentats aren't even a government program, after all.

Briefvoice said:
Why would the individual houses be willing to negotiate individually with a hostile alien power? Sticking together is the only advantage they have. Making separate deals is a treacherous action undertaken that would undermine their entire society and render it forever vulnerable to foreign domination.

We can and should undermine that united foreign policy in favor of negotiating on domestic policy. In the case where we won the war that's what we would have to do anyway.

One house was willing to come to the table with the Gaeni, so it's demonstrated that they're willing to conduct individual negotiations, if the deals on the table are in their interests. Plus, if we can get one or two houses on board, we'll be much better off taking on the remainder, and we have the mechanisms to transition power afterwards without overthrowing the entire Empire's structure. The Emperor is the most powerful house after all, no more.

Like, maybe we can offer a house safe computer technology in exchange for controlling existing mentats and ceasing mentat creation. That does not undermine the Emperor's authority, it's a private trade deal and a domestic policy compromise. There is substantial ground here for us to do work.

OneirosTheWriter · Apr 7, 2017

Briefvoice said:
Could you edit in a definition of "br" and "sr" and "rp" and what makes each of them matter to start with? I think that part of what makes this confusing is not having that initial grounding of why all this matters.

...? Bulk Resources, Special Resources, Research Points.

Simon_Jester · Apr 7, 2017

Okay, edits that were already discussed have been made gotta run not back for hours hope I can make any more changes needed by then okaythanksbye!!!

Erandil · Apr 7, 2017

Well we know from the Gaeni and Arkadian meeting that failed that Houses do in some case send their own delegations. So it doesn't seem entirely baseless to assume that approaching them might be an option.

Of course that rather crass ultimatum isn't the best base to start talks from and could have easily soured the well.

Edit:

[X][PRESIDENT] Insufficient Exit Strategy
[X][PRESIDENT] Need to hold off and investigate further
[X][PRESIDENT] Seek Individual Diplomatic Contact with Major Licori Houses

[x] Plan 11th hour diplomacy
-[x] Generate Generic External Diplomacy Team from United Earth (10 Cost to Starfleet, 5 Cost to Member World, gain External Diplomacy Team)
-[x] Retired Admiral Vitalia Yukiko Kahurangi - Personal Diplomatic Consultant (5pt cost for Starfleet, gain Special Asset)
-[x] Dhara Heavy Industry Park - Heavy Industry (5 Cost to Andoria, gain Heavy Industry asset)
-[x] Retired Vice Admiral Heidi Eriksson - Doctrine Specialist (5pt Cost to Starfleet, gain Doctrine Specialist)

Leila Hann · Apr 7, 2017

Simon_Jester said:
How, precisely, would you do significantly better in the time available than they did?

That's easy.

Part of their job is to learn the ins and outs of alien politics. During the time that we've had relations with the Licori, they should have been able to realize that the "Imperial" house is just the strongest rather than actually being in charge. They should have figured out that the "Arcadian Empire" is actually a coalition of independent states with a mutual defense pact. They should have determined which Houses were causing trouble, and pursued diplomacy either directly with them, or pressured them into acquiescence by going to their rivals.

For them to have been this ignorant about the most basic facts of Licori politics and social organization after this amount of time, they must have either been tricked, or they must have not even been trying to do their job. If the former, they are fools who need to be replaced. If the latter, they are criminals who need to stand trial.

Gingganz · Apr 7, 2017

[X][PRESIDENT] Seek Individual Diplomatic Contact with Major Licori Houses
[X][PRESIDENT] Need to hold off and investigate further
[X][PRESIDENT] Addressing Council Division

[X] Plan Iron Lady

I think it is important that we get some guard ships right now. We have already issued an ultimatum and if the Licori have no intention of complying, they might decide to strike first. Yes it would be stupid, but that doesn't mean it won't happen.

The whole ultimatum thing is troublesome. If our conditions are not met, we have announced that we will declare war. While I do think that we indeed need more time to investigate, holding off could easily make us look weak and indecisive.

@OneirosTheWriter, what are the terms of the ultimatum, anyway?

SynchronizedWritersBlock said:
just to give an idea where the plans and PRESIDENT votes stand right now

The tally has a problem. Simon_Jester and several others have two votes, and Plan Iron Lady is still the old version, not the revised one.

chriswriter90 · Apr 7, 2017

This is my vote for now, the rest of the argument is just Greek to me...

[X][PRESIDENT] Need to hold off and investigate further
[X][PRESIDENT] Need to focus on the Ked Paddah
[X][PRESIDENT] Seek Individual Diplomatic Contact with Major Licori Houses

Gingganz said:
The tallyhas a problem. Simon_Jester and several others have two votes, and Plan Iron Lady is still the old version, not the revised one.

Part of my confusion.

Briefvoice · Apr 7, 2017

Leila Hann said:
That's easy.

Part of their job is to learn the ins and outs of alien politics. During the time that we've had relations with the Licori, they should have been able to realize that the "Imperial" house is just the strongest rather than actually being in charge. They should have figured out that the "Arcadian Empire" is actually a coalition of independent states with a mutual defense pact. They should have determined which Houses were causing trouble, and pursued diplomacy either directly with them, or pressured them into acquiescence by going to their rivals.

Those things take years to realize, not days. I have to say, I find your airy statements about how easy this is to be not in keeping with the real difficulties of diplomacy and understanding alien cultures. You would have the work of a decade done in days, and then curse the FDS for taking mere years.

chriswriter90 · Apr 7, 2017

Briefvoice said:
Those things take years to realize, not days. I have to say, I find your airy statements about how easy this is to be not in keeping with the real difficulties of diplomacy and understanding alien cultures. You would have the work of a decade done in days, and then curse the FDS for taking mere years.

Not Days! We've had a diplomatic embassy on their capital world for at least a year!

aeqnai · Apr 7, 2017

[X] SynchronizedWritersBlock

SynchronizedWritersBlock · Apr 7, 2017

On one hand, we have the option of invading and instituting a central authority backed by us who can impose internal policy on the Licori as a whole. That is what it means to go to war, and that is the end result. Because the Emperor has no authority, he won't gain that authority suddenly if we're at war or if he's defeated in war. So what we mean to do is to end the institution of the Emperor and replace it.

On the other hand, we have the option of bypassing the Emperor by going to the houses and negotiating their internal policy. Yes, the Emperor isn't going to like this, but he's gone anyway if we win the war. If we win the war, he HAS to be replaced because his institution can't impose internal policy, so it MUST be replaced by one that can.

So what does it matter if we bypass the Emperor? Our choice is go around the Emperor by negotiating with the houses, or depose the Emperor by fighting a war.

Gingganz said:
The tallyhas a problem. Simon_Jester and several others have two votes, and Plan Iron Lady is still the old version, not the revised one.

Those issues were with plan formulation, and were fixed after the tally.

Vote Tally : Sci-Fi - To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest) | Page 1681 | Sufficient Velocity
##### NetTally 1.7.10.1
[X] Plan Iron Lady
-[X] Retired Admiral Vitalia Yukiko Kahurangi - Personal Diplomatic Consultant (5pt cost for Starfleet, gain Special Asset)
-[X] Federalise Auxiliary Units from Tellar: One Cargo Ship (2 Cost from Tellar)
-[X] Federalise Fleet Units from Vulcan: 1 Oberth (1 cost from Vulcan)
-[X] Federalise Fleet Units from Rigel: 1 Oda-Gach (1 cost from Rigel)
-[X] Dhara Heavy Industry Park - Heavy Industry (5 Cost to Andoria, gain Heavy Industry asset)
-[X] UESPA Deep Space Engineering - Engineering Team (10 Cost from United Earth, gain Engineering Team with 2 Engineering Ships, 3 Cargo Ships, 1 Freighter)
-[X] Vulcan Survey Corps - Recon team (3 cost for Vulcan, gain +1 to outpost and starbase atttempts to detect incoming ships, gain 1 Civilian Research Cruiser)
-[X] Andorian Orbital Guard Runabouts (3 cost for Andorian Guard, gain +1 to outpost and starbase atttempts to detect incoming ships)
No. of Votes: 13
Plan: ◈Iron Lady
Aeondrac
Chaos Blade
Crazy Tom
Driven by Apathy
Gingganz
Gnarker
Jrin
Mr Tebbs
Night
pheonix89
Simon_Jester
tryrar
UbeOne
[X] Plan Grey Lady
-[X] Retired Admiral Vitalia Yukiko Kahurangi - Personal Diplomatic Consultant (5pt cost for Starfleet, gain Special Asset)
-[X] Retired Vice Admiral Heidi Eriksson - Doctrine Specialist (5pt Cost to Starfleet, gain Doctrine Specialist)
-[X] Dhara Heavy Industry Park - Heavy Industry (5 Cost to Andoria, gain Heavy Industry asset)
-[X] UESPA Deep Space Engineering - Engineering Team (10 Cost from United Earth, gain Engineering Team with 2 Engineering Ships, 3 Cargo Ships, 1 Freighter)
-[X] Vulcan Survey Corps - Recon team (3 cost for Vulcan, gain +1 to outpost and starbase atttempts to detect incoming ships, gain 1 Civilian Research Cruiser)
-[X] Federalise Fleet Units from <Vulcan> (5 cost for explorer, 2 cost for cruiser, 1 cost for frigate, paid against member world you are calling up fleet units from): Oberth (1 cost)
-[X] Federalise Fleet Units from <Rigel> (5 cost for explorer, 2 cost for cruiser, 1 cost for frigate, paid against member world you are calling up fleet units from): Oda-Gach (1 cost)
No. of Votes: 9
Plan: ◈Grey Lady
Ato
Briefvoice
ClawClawBite
Glassware
Kyushiro
lbmaian
Nervos Belli
pbluekan
Random Member
[x] Plan 11th hour diplomacy
-[x] Generate Generic External Diplomacy Team from United Earth (10 Cost to Starfleet, 5 Cost to Member World, gain External Diplomacy Team)
-[x] Retired Admiral Vitalia Yukiko Kahurangi - Personal Diplomatic Consultant (5pt cost for Starfleet, gain Special Asset)
-[x] Dhara Heavy Industry Park - Heavy Industry (5 Cost to Andoria, gain Heavy Industry asset)
-[x] Retired Vice Admiral Heidi Eriksson - Doctrine Specialist (5pt Cost to Starfleet, gain Doctrine Specialist)
No. of Votes: 8
Plan: ◈11th hour diplomacy
aeqnai
AlphaDelta
ctulhuslp
Erandil
Godwinson
MTB
SynchronizedWritersBlock
Theunderbolt
[X] Plan Diplomacy and Planning
-[X] Generate Generic Internal Diplomacy Team from Earth (10 Cost to Starfleet, 5 Cost to Member World, gain Internal Diplomacy Team)
-[X] Retired Vice Admiral Heidi Eriksson - Doctrine Specialist (5pt Cost to Starfleet, gain Doctrine Specialist)
-[X] Retired Admiral Vitalia Yukiko Kahurangi - Personal Diplomatic Consultant (5pt cost for Starfleet, gain Special Asset)
-[X] Vulcan Survey Corps - Recon team (3 cost for Vulcan, gain +1 to outpost and starbase atttempts to detect incoming ships, gain 1 Civilian Research Cruiser)
-[X] Federalise Auxiliary Units from Tellar (3 cost for freighter, 2 cost for cargo ship, 3 cost for other auxiliary units) : 1 cargo ship
No. of Votes: 1
Plan: ◈Diplomacy and Planning
Nix
[X] Plan "Spread the Love"
No. of Votes: 1
Plan: ◈"Spread the Love"
Goat
[X] UESPA Deep Space Engineering - Engineering Team (10 Cost from United Earth, gain Engineering Team with 2 Engineering Ships, 3 Cargo Ships, 1 Freighter)
No. of Votes: 1
Goat
[X] Shorc Xurth Resource Combine - Heavy Industry (5 Cost to Tellar, gain Heavy Industry asset)
No. of Votes: 1
Goat
[X] Andorian Orbital Guard Runabouts (3 cost for Andorian Guard, gain +1 to outpost and starbase atttempts to detect incoming ships)
No. of Votes: 1
Goat
[X] Retired Admiral Vitalia Yukiko Kahurangi - Personal Diplomatic Consultant (5pt cost for Starfleet, gain Special Asset)
No. of Votes: 1
Goat
[X] Federalise Fleet Units from Vulcan - their Oberth (1 cost for frigate, paid against member world you are calling up fleet units from)
No. of Votes: 1
Goat
[X] Federalise Auxiliary Units from Betazed - Freighter(3 cost for freighter)
No. of Votes: 1
Goat
[X] Federalise Auxiliary Units from Rigil - Freighter(3 cost for freighter)
No. of Votes: 1
Goat
-[X] Federalise Auxiliary Units from Tellar: Two Cargo Ships (4 Cost from Tellar)
-[X] Shorc Xurth Resource Combine - Heavy Industry (5 Cost to Tellar, gain Heavy Industry asset)
-[X] UESPA Deep Space Engineering - Engineering Team (10 Cost from United Earth, gain Engineering Team with 2 Engineering Ships, 3 Cargo Ships, 1 Freighter)
-[X] Vulcan Survey Corps - Recon team (3 cost for Vulcan, gain +1 to outpost and starbase atttempts to detect incoming ships, gain 1 Civilian Research Cruiser)
-[X] Andorian Orbital Guard Runabouts (3 cost for Andorian Guard, gain +1 to outpost and starbase atttempts to detect incoming ships)
No. of Votes: 1
Crazy Tom
[X] Plan "Smart, Not Hard"
[X][PRESIDENT] Addressing Council Division
[X][PRESIDENT] Insufficient Exit Strategy
[X][PRESIDENT] Chance for further diplomacy with all Licori Houses
[X] Retired Admiral Vitalia Yukiko Kahurangi - Personal Diplomatic Consultant (5pt cost for Starfleet, gain Special Asset)
[X] Retired Vice Admiral Heidi Eriksson - Doctrine Specialist (5pt Cost to Starfleet, gain Doctrine Specialist)
[X] Generate Generic Internal Diplomacy Team from Earth (10 Cost to Starfleet, 5 Cost to Member World, gain Internal Diplomacy Team)
[X] Generate Generic External Diplomacy Team from Earth (10 Cost to Starfleet, 5 Cost to Member World, gain External Diplomacy Team)
No. of Votes: 0
Plan: ◈"Smart, Not Hard"

Task: PRESIDENT
[X][PRESIDENT] Addressing Council Division
No. of Votes: 27
Goat
Aeondrac
aeqnai
AlphaDelta
Ato
Briefvoice
Chaos Blade
Crazy Tom
ctulhuslp
Driven by Apathy
Gingganz
Glassware
Gnarker
Godwinson
Jrin
Mr Tebbs
MTB
Nervos Belli
Night
pbluekan
pheonix89
Random Member
Simon_Jester
SynchronizedWritersBlock
Theunderbolt
tryrar
UbeOne
[X][PRESIDENT] Seek Individual Diplomatic Contact with Major Licori Houses
No. of Votes: 24
Briefvoice
Aeondrac
aeqnai
AlphaDelta
Chaos Blade
chriswriter90
ClawClawBite
ctulhuslp
Erandil
Gingganz
Glassware
Gnarker
Godwinson
Jrin
MTB
Night
pbluekan
pheonix89
Random Member
Simon_Jester
SynchronizedWritersBlock
Theunderbolt
tryrar
UbeOne
[X][PRESIDENT] Need to hold off and investigate further
No. of Votes: 14
Ato
aeqnai
AlphaDelta
Chaos Blade
chriswriter90
ctulhuslp
Erandil
Gingganz
Godwinson
MTB
pbluekan
pheonix89
SynchronizedWritersBlock
Theunderbolt
[X][PRESIDENT] Need to focus on the Ked Paddah
No. of Votes: 13
Driven by Apathy
Aeondrac
chriswriter90
ClawClawBite
Crazy Tom
Gnarker
Jrin
Mr Tebbs
Nervos Belli
Night
Simon_Jester
tryrar
UbeOne
[X][PRESIDENT] Insufficient Exit Strategy
No. of Votes: 8
Goat
Ato
Briefvoice
ClawClawBite
Erandil
Glassware
Nervos Belli
Random Member
[X][PRESIDENT] Request Diplomatic Summit with all Major Licori Houses
No. of Votes: 3
Driven by Apathy
Crazy Tom
Mr Tebbs
[X][PRESIDENT] "Fire and replace the FDS top brass."
No. of Votes: 1
Leila Hann
[X][PRESIDENT] Chance for further diplomacy
No. of Votes: 1
Goat
-[X][PRESIDENT] Need to hold off and investigate further
-[X][PRESIDENT] Request Diplomatic Summit with all Major Licori Houses
-[X][PRESIDENT] Need to focus on the Ked Paddah
No. of Votes: 1
Nix
Total No. of Voters: 34

Night · Apr 7, 2017

Nervos Belli said:
Foreign policy is whatever the Licori think falls under the purview of foreign policy.

Foreign policy is the things your neighbors try to negotiate with you about or go to war over. Hint: Mentat policy is both these things.

Briefvoice said:
Those things take years to realize, not days.

People in this very thread actually intuited the likely problem with far less access and far less training over far less time. The FDS had specialists, access to the Licori themselves, and a year.

MTB · Apr 7, 2017

Briefvoice said:
You would have the work of a decade done in days, and then curse the FDS for taking mere years.

We've got experience with a dozen or more alien cultures, members have been doing this for hundreds of years, and in case of the Licori we had time since the first contact, which was not yesterday, and also an affiliate which neighbours them who had some negotiations. Although these failed, they happened, which means the Gaeni have information available on the Licori.

Briefvoice · Apr 7, 2017

SynchronizedWritersBlock said:
One house was willing to come to the table with the Gaeni, so it's demonstrated that they're willing to conduct individual negotiations, if the deals on the table are in their interests. Plus, if we can get one or two houses on board, we'll be much better off taking on the remainder, and we have the mechanisms to transition power afterwards without overthrowing the entire Empire's structure. The Emperor is the most powerful house after all, no more.

You're starting to repeat this "the noble houses negotiated alone with the Gaen" line so I went back and looked at the relevant Captain's Log.

Captain's Log, USS Atuin, Stardate 25572.4 - Captain Vol Chad

Facilitating a mission of peace for the Council, we have joined the Renaissance and Vigour at Agamedes. Bearing a number of Diplomatic Service representatives and the Councillor for Solitude, T'Prinit, we will host delegations from the Illuminated Technocracy of Gaen, and a noble delegation from the Arcadian Empire, and the House of Kortennon.

Just after our arrival, the Licori arrived as well, with a cruiser and frigate escort. On the Gaen side, Senior-Administrative Technocrat Dara-Gael Akatan has arrived on the IGS Hiddik-Daya.

May there be peace in these times.

What that looks like to me is that that an Imperial representative came to the table, and they brought along a delegation from House Kortennon since that was the House whose mentat caused the damage to the Courageous.

Nervos Belli · Apr 7, 2017

Night said:
Foreign policy is the things your neighbors try to negotiate with you about or go to war over. Hint: Mentat policy is both these things.

People in this very thread actually intuited the likely problem with far less access and far less training over far less time. The FDS had specialists, access to the Licori themselves, and a year.

We guessed. I'm sure the FDS had a half-dozen theories explaining Licori behavior. Actually determining which one it is takes time.

Night · Apr 7, 2017

Nervos Belli said:
We guessed. I'm sure the FDS had a half-dozen theories explaining Licori behavior. Actually determining which one it is takes time.

No it doesn't. They're actually watching real Licori politics in action. They're not forensically reconstructing them. They can see it working with their eyes. They don't have to guess and make theories; they have access to the hard data, right there.

Briefvoice · Apr 7, 2017

chriswriter90 said:
Not Days! We've had a diplomatic embassy on their capital world for at least a year!

You can't even negotiate trade terms on t-shirts in a year. A year is nothing, and you're talking about starting from complete scratch. I repeat, a year is nothing.

Goat · Apr 7, 2017

OneirosTheWriter said:
9 Freighters, 20 Cargo Ships assigned to networks
-5 Freighters, -8 Cargo Ships free for other tasks
Currently having to federalize a large number of cargo vessels

Well, now we know how much we are borrowing, at the moment. Now a lot of Members have the spare shipping, but that is still a LOT of shipping we've pulled off them.

Briefvoice · Apr 7, 2017

Gah, urge to write omake where thread arguments for "incompetence" of FDS are brought up and ruthlessly demolished as nonsense rising....

SynchronizedWritersBlock · Apr 7, 2017

Briefvoice said:
You're starting to repeat this "the noble houses negotiated alone with the Gaen" line so I went back and looked at the relevant Captain's Log.

What that looks like to me is that that an Imperial representative came to the table, and they brought along a delegation from House Kortennon since that was the House whose mentat caused the damage to the Courageous.

So I was right? We can negotiate with the individual houses. I mean, you're voting to get in contact with the individual houses.

Briefvoice said:
Gah, urge to write omake where thread arguments for "incompetence" of FDS are brought up and ruthlessly demolished as nonsense rising....

It seems a miscommunication to me, not incompetence, but it doesn't actually matter. What matters is that we take action now to resolve the potential conflict without resorting to warfare.

To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)

Herald of the Titans

Cabal Core Commander

Nerdy Homu

Widow Null

Don't think this means you've won!

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