To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)
- Thread starter OneirosTheWriter
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I'm sorry if I'm getting too irritated here.
I feel as though a some of us our letting real life political issues (particularly the belief that the second Iraq War was a bad idea) color our reactions a bit too much. In particular, to color our reaction to a situation that is in many ways very different from the situation that those real life political issues were about.
Don't get me wrong, I think the invasion of Iraq was a bad idea too. But that is in large part because Saddam Hussein didn't have a nuclear program headed up by a guy who thought it was a great idea to randomly smuggle his prototype nukes into other people's territory to test-fire them. If that had been the case, I would feel rather differently about the whole thing.
...
I also feel as though I'm being scolded for wanting to invest some mobilization points in logistical assets as a way of 'banking' them against future need. This strikes me as unfair because it is exactly the sort of thing real life military commanders would be doing in this situation, and Oneiros has spent the last couple of months very unsubtly hinting that we need to pay more attention to logistics.
Also the ability to quietly threaten Rob Langford with a primary election defeat if he makes too much trouble, because I'm pretty sure if Vitalia Kahurangi ran against Langford for the Council seat from Earth, she'd win, or at least give him one hell of a run for his money.
Because the prevailing argument appears to be "we can't declare war if we don't know how to win yet" or even "we can't threaten to declare war if we don't know how to win yet."
Firstly, I would argue that this is false prima facie when we look at precedents like the Biophage and the Borg.
Secondly, this really does generalize to something like "don't treat a problem as severe enough to merit special action until you know how to solve it."
Our "war aim" is "end the threat of mentat astrophysical experiments to the Federation." That is a very simple goal.
Our "exit strategy" would be a complete plan outlining each step in the war from the opening shots through the last battle, the signing of the instrument of surrender, the postwar occupation and the transition to a newer, less obnoxious government. This is not, to put it mildly, a simple thing.
Our "exit strategy" involves a tremendous number of variables. How much help can we get from the Ked Paddah and Gaeni? Which, if any, of the Licori Houses will compromise? Which ones will make a heroic stand and fight to the death? Which ones will pretend to surrender but secretly keep up dangerous programs of resistance? We will not know for years whether any given exit strategy is viable. Especially if we put off obtaining more information longer than necessary. Or decide to fight the war prematurely, because the emperor remains obstinate, despite not knowing how the Houses stand on the issue.
I feel as though a some of us our letting real life political issues (particularly the belief that the second Iraq War was a bad idea) color our reactions a bit too much. In particular, to color our reaction to a situation that is in many ways very different from the situation that those real life political issues were about.
Don't get me wrong, I think the invasion of Iraq was a bad idea too. But that is in large part because Saddam Hussein didn't have a nuclear program headed up by a guy who thought it was a great idea to randomly smuggle his prototype nukes into other people's territory to test-fire them. If that had been the case, I would feel rather differently about the whole thing.
...
I also feel as though I'm being scolded for wanting to invest some mobilization points in logistical assets as a way of 'banking' them against future need. This strikes me as unfair because it is exactly the sort of thing real life military commanders would be doing in this situation, and Oneiros has spent the last couple of months very unsubtly hinting that we need to pay more attention to logistics.
I'm looking forward to finding out. My best bet is that she's well placed to serve as an envoy for purposes of internal diplomacy because she has a very, very great reputation.
Also the ability to quietly threaten Rob Langford with a primary election defeat if he makes too much trouble, because I'm pretty sure if Vitalia Kahurangi ran against Langford for the Council seat from Earth, she'd win, or at least give him one hell of a run for his money.
According to some of the people pushing "Exit Strategy" as a vote... it would appear that yes, yes we must.
Because the prevailing argument appears to be "we can't declare war if we don't know how to win yet" or even "we can't threaten to declare war if we don't know how to win yet."
Firstly, I would argue that this is false prima facie when we look at precedents like the Biophage and the Borg.
Secondly, this really does generalize to something like "don't treat a problem as severe enough to merit special action until you know how to solve it."
And just to be clear, this is something you consider more important than seeking contact with the major houses...? [reads further]
Ah. That clarifies matters. As written that would be an invalid write-in vote, but only because it's nine words long. I can work on that. Just a minute.
I'm not sure you're properly distinguishing between knowing what we want, and having a strategy to get there. "Exit strategy" is not the same as "war aim."
Our "war aim" is "end the threat of mentat astrophysical experiments to the Federation." That is a very simple goal.
Our "exit strategy" would be a complete plan outlining each step in the war from the opening shots through the last battle, the signing of the instrument of surrender, the postwar occupation and the transition to a newer, less obnoxious government. This is not, to put it mildly, a simple thing.
Our "exit strategy" involves a tremendous number of variables. How much help can we get from the Ked Paddah and Gaeni? Which, if any, of the Licori Houses will compromise? Which ones will make a heroic stand and fight to the death? Which ones will pretend to surrender but secretly keep up dangerous programs of resistance? We will not know for years whether any given exit strategy is viable. Especially if we put off obtaining more information longer than necessary. Or decide to fight the war prematurely, because the emperor remains obstinate, despite not knowing how the Houses stand on the issue.
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It's easy to miss in the thread, so please consider @lbmaian's plan "Grey Lady" as an alternative to "Iron Lady". Notable differences from "Iron Lady":
1. We get a Doctrine specialist so we can figure out how to fight effectively. As a reminder, this is what it says abotu doctrine specialists:
2. We go the Andorians for Heavy Industry instead of the Tellarites, as the Andorians are less vulnerable to war weariness.
3. We get that Vulcan Oberth we promised ourselves we were going to make them give up as a token contribution to show they have 'skin in the game'. Wasn't everyone on board with that?
4. In return, we only get one runabout team instead of two... but there's plenty of time to grab the second one next month.
1. We get a Doctrine specialist so we can figure out how to fight effectively. As a reminder, this is what it says abotu doctrine specialists:
2. We go the Andorians for Heavy Industry instead of the Tellarites, as the Andorians are less vulnerable to war weariness.
3. We get that Vulcan Oberth we promised ourselves we were going to make them give up as a token contribution to show they have 'skin in the game'. Wasn't everyone on board with that?
4. In return, we only get one runabout team instead of two... but there's plenty of time to grab the second one next month.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
@Briefvoice has convinced me to revise the write-in PRESIDENT vote. I didn't originally invent that particular write-in, but I'm happy to amend it to something he thinks is more practical.
I am considering some minor revisions to Plan Iron Lady, in particular sacrificing one of the cargo ships in favor of the Vulcan Oberth and a Rigellian science frigate. But as of this time, my vote stands as below. I will contact everyone who voted for my suggestions as soon as I've thought through the plan revision.
[][PRESIDENT] Seek Individual Diplomatic Contact with Major Licori Houses
[][PRESIDENT] Need to focus on the Ked Paddah
[][PRESIDENT] Addressing Council Division
[] Plan Iron Lady
-[] Retired Admiral Vitalia Yukiko Kahurangi - Personal Diplomatic Consultant (5pt cost for Starfleet, gain Special Asset)
-[] Federalise Auxiliary Units from Tellar: Two Cargo Ships (4 Cost from Tellar)
-[] Shorc Xurth Resource Combine - Heavy Industry (5 Cost to Tellar, gain Heavy Industry asset)
-[] UESPA Deep Space Engineering - Engineering Team (10 Cost from United Earth, gain Engineering Team with 2 Engineering Ships, 3 Cargo Ships, 1 Freighter)
-[] Vulcan Survey Corps - Recon team (3 cost for Vulcan, gain +1 to outpost and starbase atttempts to detect incoming ships, gain 1 Civilian Research Cruiser)
-[] Andorian Orbital Guard Runabouts (3 cost for Andorian Guard, gain +1 to outpost and starbase atttempts to detect incoming ships)
EDIT: (X's removed for conservation)
I am considering some minor revisions to Plan Iron Lady, in particular sacrificing one of the cargo ships in favor of the Vulcan Oberth and a Rigellian science frigate. But as of this time, my vote stands as below. I will contact everyone who voted for my suggestions as soon as I've thought through the plan revision.
[][PRESIDENT] Seek Individual Diplomatic Contact with Major Licori Houses
[][PRESIDENT] Need to focus on the Ked Paddah
[][PRESIDENT] Addressing Council Division
[] Plan Iron Lady
-[] Retired Admiral Vitalia Yukiko Kahurangi - Personal Diplomatic Consultant (5pt cost for Starfleet, gain Special Asset)
-[] Federalise Auxiliary Units from Tellar: Two Cargo Ships (4 Cost from Tellar)
-[] Shorc Xurth Resource Combine - Heavy Industry (5 Cost to Tellar, gain Heavy Industry asset)
-[] UESPA Deep Space Engineering - Engineering Team (10 Cost from United Earth, gain Engineering Team with 2 Engineering Ships, 3 Cargo Ships, 1 Freighter)
-[] Vulcan Survey Corps - Recon team (3 cost for Vulcan, gain +1 to outpost and starbase atttempts to detect incoming ships, gain 1 Civilian Research Cruiser)
-[] Andorian Orbital Guard Runabouts (3 cost for Andorian Guard, gain +1 to outpost and starbase atttempts to detect incoming ships)
EDIT: (X's removed for conservation)
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ClawClawBite
Mad Engineering!
- Location
- Seattle, WA
[X][PRESIDENT] Seek Individual Diplomatic Contact with Major Licori Houses
[X][PRESIDENT] Insufficient Exit Strategy
[X][PRESIDENT] Need to focus on the Ked Paddah
[X] Plan Grey Lady
[X][PRESIDENT] Insufficient Exit Strategy
[X][PRESIDENT] Need to focus on the Ked Paddah
[X] Plan Grey Lady
To all those suggesting "Insufficient Exit Strategy" as a Council vote, precisely what do you think this exit strategy should look like? Do you feel that the Federation, its president, or its other senior leadership have enough information to make a coherent plan as to how to end this conflict in a way that gives us the security we require?
Do you feel that this is a higher priority than, for example, making actual contact with the Licori Houses so that we find out what is going on and can determine which of them are likely to be our allies or enemies in this struggle?
If you do not think that having a plan is a higher priority than talking to the Licori houses, then this is a poor time to focus on "we don't have enough exit strategy." Not when we'd be doing so at the expense of simply taking the obvious lesson from our discussion with Langford and Stesk, which is that we need to negotiate with the Licori Houses, not just with the Emperor and his chosen envoy(s). This is why I voted:
[X][PRESIDENT] Request Diplomatic Summit with all Major Licori Houses
[X][PRESIDENT] Need to focus on the Ked Paddah
[X][PRESIDENT] Addressing Council Division
[X] Plan Iron Lady
-[X] Retired Admiral Vitalia Yukiko Kahurangi - Personal Diplomatic Consultant (5pt cost for Starfleet, gain Special Asset)
-[X] Federalise Auxiliary Units from Tellar: Two Cargo Ships (4 Cost from Tellar)
-[X] Shorc Xurth Resource Combine - Heavy Industry (5 Cost to Tellar, gain Heavy Industry asset)
-[X] UESPA Deep Space Engineering - Engineering Team (10 Cost from United Earth, gain Engineering Team with 2 Engineering Ships, 3 Cargo Ships, 1 Freighter)
-[X] Vulcan Survey Corps - Recon team (3 cost for Vulcan, gain +1 to outpost and starbase atttempts to detect incoming ships, gain 1 Civilian Research Cruiser)
-[X] Andorian Orbital Guard Runabouts (3 cost for Andorian Guard, gain +1 to outpost and starbase atttempts to detect incoming ships)
Which is exactly what we did. We created that border zone, we sent a massive fleet there, and as soon as we get around to using the state of emergency for anything other than calling up more internal diplomacy teams so we can call up teams faster, we'll start building up other kinds of defenses and interdiction facilities in that border zone.
War has not been declared. Even if war had been declared, we could at any time declare a cease-fire or simply unilaterally halt offensive operations if at any moment we get even a hint of the Licori being willing to talk to us and compromise on this issue. Which they did not give us hints of doing, until the literal last hour before the ultimatum ran out.
You were right to never think so. The Federation has not declared war. The Federation has threatened to declare war if the Licori continue to refuse to negotiate. The Licori have, apparently, decided they would prefer to negotiate. The results of this negotiation remain to be seen.
And the only reason the Federation has even threatened to declare war is because the information we do already have. Namely, information that indicates that the potential for Federation loss of life if this threat goes unchecked is only one step down from the Borg or the Biophage. Two threats the Federation did "declare war on" when it had only minimal information about their nature.
Because sometimes, if you encounter a large animal with big teeth and it roars and leaps at you, you can't spend time going "what a nice kitty, I wonder what it eats" before dodging the roaring leap. Otherwise, the answer to the question may be "you."
This is one of the advantages of the distinction between a state of emergency and a declaration of war.
We have a state of emergency. The emergency ends when the goal is fulfilled. If the goal CAN be fulfilled without violence (that is, if the Licori are prepared to allow it), then we can do that. If not, then we end up having to use violence. Continuing to investigate the situation is within our remit as part of the state of emergency; nothing stops us from having political and xenopsych analysis teams specifically digging through information on the Licori in an attempt to find a way to stabilize things without war, or with only very limited war.
[Well, except for Oneiros not having thought of that as an option yet.
If we refrain from acting as though anything significantly frightening is going on (as in, if we had not called a state of emergency) until such time as we are sure know how to proceed, we may not get the chance. Remember that against the Biophage, a state of emergency was declared several months before we even located the Biophage 'homeworld', before we had a clear understanding of how to stop the Biophage from infecting new hosts, before we were sure the Romulans would make solid allies or shaky ones.
Trying to make out that we have to choose between getting the president to contemplate some concrete end goals, and talking to the Licori houses is a false dilemma.
We can do both, and in fact I did vote for both, along with encouraging a redress of internal council divisions.
I think you are misconstruing my position on this issue, I was never against declaring a state of emergency, and I do believe that the Mentat threat is a clear and present danger.
However I do feel that if we go in with the current plan of blast the Licori fleet to pieces and then dictate terms at phaser point, we risk making the situation a whole lot worse.
We have no plan about what to do with the Licori after that point, and what is worse we don't have the information to formulate such a plan. This is a highly dangerous position to be in.
I don't want to dictate to the president what the goals should be or in what form the post war Arcadian situation should take. What I want is some reassurance that these issues have been considered at all. Because so far there is no evidence that they have, and significant evidence to suggest that this area has been entirely overlooked.
I have no issue with what has been done so far, but I strongly disagree with how some of it has been done, and am very sceptical of the President's ability to address these concerns if we do not at least push her gently in that direction.
Ideally I would like an outline plan of how to control the mentats and if necessary what we need to do to restructure the Licori state. It is highly likely that to produce such a plan we need to talk to the Licori houses first.
I think you have fallen into the kind of hard man making hard choices, lifeboat logic that the Federation is explicitly supposed to be avoiding. And have become fixated on the idea that this threat must be ended as son as possible, no matter how much blood is spilled to achieve that aim.
I'm sorry if I'm getting too irritated here.
I feel as though a some of us our letting real life political issues (particularly the belief that the second Iraq War was a bad idea) color our reactions a bit too much. In particular, to color our reaction to a situation that is in many ways very different from the situation that those real life political issues were about.
Don't get me wrong, I think the invasion of Iraq was a bad idea too. But that is in large part because Saddam Hussein didn't have a nuclear program headed up by a guy who thought it was a great idea to randomly smuggle his prototype nukes into other people's territory to test-fire them. If that had been the case, I would feel rather differently about the whole thing.
...
I also feel as though I'm being scolded for wanting to invest some mobilization points in logistical assets as a way of 'banking' them against future need. This strikes me as unfair because it is exactly the sort of thing real life military commanders would be doing in this situation, and Oneiros has spent the last couple of months very unsubtly hinting that we need to pay more attention to logistics.
I'm looking forward to finding out. My best bet is that she's well placed to serve as an envoy for purposes of internal diplomacy because she has a very, very great reputation.
Also the ability to quietly threaten Rob Langford with a primary election defeat if he makes too much trouble, because I'm pretty sure if Vitalia Kahurangi ran against Langford for the Council seat from Earth, she'd win, or at least give him one hell of a run for his money.
According to some of the people pushing "Exit Strategy" as a vote... it would appear that yes, yes we must.
Because the prevailing argument appears to be "we can't declare war if we don't know how to win yet" or even "we can't threaten to declare war if we don't know how to win yet."
Firstly, I would argue that this is false prima facie when we look at precedents like the Biophage and the Borg.
Secondly, this really does generalize to something like "don't treat a problem as severe enough to merit special action until you know how to solve it."
And just to be clear, this is something you consider more important than seeking contact with the major houses...? [reads further]
Ah. That clarifies matters. As written that would be an invalid write-in vote, but only because it's nine words long. I can work on that. Just a minute.
I'm not sure you're properly distinguishing between knowing what we want, and having a strategy to get there. "Exit strategy" is not the same as "war aim."
Our "war aim" is "end the threat of mentat astrophysical experiments to the Federation." That is a very simple goal.
Our "exit strategy" would be a complete plan outlining each step in the war from the opening shots through the last battle, the signing of the instrument of surrender, the postwar occupation and the transition to a newer, less obnoxious government. This is not, to put it mildly, a simple thing.
Our "exit strategy" involves a tremendous number of variables. How much help can we get from the Ked Paddah and Gaeni? Which, if any, of the Licori Houses will compromise? Which ones will make a heroic stand and fight to the death? Which ones will pretend to surrender but secretly keep up dangerous programs of resistance? We will not know for years whether any given exit strategy is viable. Especially if we put off obtaining more information longer than necessary. Or decide to fight the war prematurely, because the emperor remains obstinate, despite not knowing how the Houses stand on the issue.
The focus on the whole "we need an exit plan" argument does not originate from the Iraq war (though it is a great example of what happens if you lack one) but is one of the basic tenants of internal relations that almost all scientists in the field agree with...
I will amend my president vote, but I am going to drop the focus on the Ked Peddah over dropping the exit strategy.
lbmaian
a thirsty squirrel
- Location
- USA
I am equally NOT SURE that we need those extra
Everything we plan to purchase, we are much surer would be useful.
We're getting more patrol ships and recon ships and a doctrine specialist because we're scared of what the T'Mir's success indicates.
We want heavy industry and engineering teams because we know we want to build starbases, outposts, sensors, and repair ships.
This is basic common sense and historical precedent. No, I obviously do not know in advance literally every aspect of Oneiros's logistics system and rules including the ones that he just made up and some of which he hasn't shared with us. What I do know is that lack of supply transport capability is one of the biggest limiting factors on military and infrastructural buildups for all nations throughout history, and that we've already had cases where deliberately going out of our way to liberally supply a border zone commander with extra freighters resulted in her being able to do good things that would otherwise not have been possible.
If there were other options to spend that four cost on besides Red Squad, or "even more warships," I might pick those instead. But I do not for a moment feel as though I'm somehow being foolish or ignorant by saying "gee, let's lay in a couple of extra freighters." I would bet a considerable sum of money on us needing those freighters eventually.
*sigh*
You're missing the point.
I'd rather get something I know will be useful, over something we are NOT SURE will be useful now. We do not have historical examples in TBG canon where we've lacked cargo ships and freighters and could not procure more upon request. The closest is the GBZ request last year, and there's no indication that the lack of those ships right then impacted current operations then, and instead would only influence future operations. Future being the key word there.
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- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
@Briefvoice, I understand and respect your decision to do things that way on your PRESIDENT vote. I don't think I agree, but I seriously considered doing it that way myself, and I may yet change my mind along the same lines you did, albeit from the opposite direction as it were.
EDIT: Among other things, I'm worried that if we don't emphasize the Ked Paddah to the president, they may wind up entirely ignored in our rush to reach a negotiated settlement with the Licori. That isn't a thing that will certainly happen, but it's a possibility, and one that alarms me. Because it could result in a situation where we're happy and leave things alone, only for the Ked Paddah to continue fighting, forcing the Licori to resume superweapon development and put us through this whole cycle all over again.
______________________
On a general note:
More than once, I have emphasized that even during a state of emergency we can pursue negotiation and investigation at every opportunity. I have further emphasized that this is an important distinction between saying "we are at war" and saying "this is a state of emergency."
Given the Licori's willingness to negotiate, something we were not in a good position to take for granted until recently, we can negotiate and focus on securing our own space.
My point is, quite simply, that the urgency of the danger does not allow us to defer ALL action until such time as we have a detailed plan for how to accomplish our long-term goals. We are not in any position to plan out our issues with the Licori out to that happy future time at which we coexist with them peacefully and free of danger or conflict. We cannot see the entire road ahead from here. We don't have a map, and we don't have time to stop and find one before we set out on the road.
Therefore, I maintain that it was not a mistake to declare a state of emergency, before we knew how to end that state of emergency (as opposed to knowing when it would be over).
I further maintain that it was not a mistake, though it was at least a move reasonable people could disagree over, to send an ultimatum to the Licori government.
And I maintain that it would be a mistake to emphasize our need for an exit strategy to the point where it crowds out our efforts to gather the information we need to create a good exit strategy.
______________________________
Now, my time is a bit pressed, and I would REALLY LIKE to finish revising my plan to compromise a bit towards @lbmaian's position on a few issues before I am forced to go do something else. So if people could just hang on about this for a little while please?
EDIT: Among other things, I'm worried that if we don't emphasize the Ked Paddah to the president, they may wind up entirely ignored in our rush to reach a negotiated settlement with the Licori. That isn't a thing that will certainly happen, but it's a possibility, and one that alarms me. Because it could result in a situation where we're happy and leave things alone, only for the Ked Paddah to continue fighting, forcing the Licori to resume superweapon development and put us through this whole cycle all over again.
______________________
On a general note:
More than once, I have emphasized that even during a state of emergency we can pursue negotiation and investigation at every opportunity. I have further emphasized that this is an important distinction between saying "we are at war" and saying "this is a state of emergency."
Given the Licori's willingness to negotiate, something we were not in a good position to take for granted until recently, we can negotiate and focus on securing our own space.
My point is, quite simply, that the urgency of the danger does not allow us to defer ALL action until such time as we have a detailed plan for how to accomplish our long-term goals. We are not in any position to plan out our issues with the Licori out to that happy future time at which we coexist with them peacefully and free of danger or conflict. We cannot see the entire road ahead from here. We don't have a map, and we don't have time to stop and find one before we set out on the road.
Therefore, I maintain that it was not a mistake to declare a state of emergency, before we knew how to end that state of emergency (as opposed to knowing when it would be over).
I further maintain that it was not a mistake, though it was at least a move reasonable people could disagree over, to send an ultimatum to the Licori government.
And I maintain that it would be a mistake to emphasize our need for an exit strategy to the point where it crowds out our efforts to gather the information we need to create a good exit strategy.
______________________________
Now, my time is a bit pressed, and I would REALLY LIKE to finish revising my plan to compromise a bit towards @lbmaian's position on a few issues before I am forced to go do something else. So if people could just hang on about this for a little while please?
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Night
Widow Null
- Location
- Hoff
These are political specialists and the fact is that we needed basic information about the limits of the Arcadian Emperor's actual power, which they've had at least a year to gather. We're not asking for the name of his grandmother's maid. They didn't need deep sources. A couple of history books probably would have sufficed to give them an idea of the powers and privileges of the people involved assuming they're not more clearly enumerated in some governmental document.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
@Chaos Blade , @Mr Tebbs , @Aeondrac , @Crazy Tom , @Godwinson , @Jrin :
Since you have all been kind enough to vote for my previous version of "Plan Iron Lady," I wanted to tag you to let you know there have been some slight changes to the plan. They are discussed below. I have also amended the wording of my write-in vote for "PRESIDENT," as you see below.
@Forgothrax : For the record, I liked your write-in idea at the bottom of Page 1681 so much I adopted it, but people persuaded me to modify it a bit, as you see below.
@lbmaian , @Briefvoice : I am convinced of the wisdom of getting our industrial assets from Andor rather than Tellar under present circumstances. Since this seems to me like a strictly superior course of action assuming nothing unexpected happens, I'm switching to it. I have also swapped out one of the Tellarite cargo ships in order to mobilize two science-heavy frigates, as per your "Grey Lady" plan.
[][PRESIDENT] Seek Individual Diplomatic Contact with Major Licori Houses
[][PRESIDENT] Need to focus on the Ked Paddah
[][PRESIDENT] Addressing Council Division
[] Plan Iron Lady
-[] Retired Admiral Vitalia Yukiko Kahurangi - Personal Diplomatic Consultant (5pt cost for Starfleet, gain Special Asset)
-[] Federalise Auxiliary Units from Tellar: One Cargo Ship (2 Cost from Tellar)
-[] Federalise Fleet Units from Vulcan: 1 Oberth (1 cost from Vulcan)
-[] Federalise Fleet Units from Rigel: 1 Oda-Gach (1 cost from Rigel)
-[] Dhara Heavy Industry Park - Heavy Industry (5 Cost to Andoria, gain Heavy Industry asset)
-[] UESPA Deep Space Engineering - Engineering Team (10 Cost from United Earth, gain Engineering Team with 2 Engineering Ships, 3 Cargo Ships, 1 Freighter)
-[] Vulcan Survey Corps - Recon team (3 cost for Vulcan, gain +1 to outpost and starbase atttempts to detect incoming ships, gain 1 Civilian Research Cruiser)
-[] Andorian Orbital Guard Runabouts (3 cost for Andorian Guard, gain +1 to outpost and starbase atttempts to detect incoming ships)
(contents transferred to vote on Page 1682)
Since you have all been kind enough to vote for my previous version of "Plan Iron Lady," I wanted to tag you to let you know there have been some slight changes to the plan. They are discussed below. I have also amended the wording of my write-in vote for "PRESIDENT," as you see below.
@Forgothrax : For the record, I liked your write-in idea at the bottom of Page 1681 so much I adopted it, but people persuaded me to modify it a bit, as you see below.
@lbmaian , @Briefvoice : I am convinced of the wisdom of getting our industrial assets from Andor rather than Tellar under present circumstances. Since this seems to me like a strictly superior course of action assuming nothing unexpected happens, I'm switching to it. I have also swapped out one of the Tellarite cargo ships in order to mobilize two science-heavy frigates, as per your "Grey Lady" plan.
[][PRESIDENT] Seek Individual Diplomatic Contact with Major Licori Houses
[][PRESIDENT] Need to focus on the Ked Paddah
[][PRESIDENT] Addressing Council Division
[] Plan Iron Lady
-[] Retired Admiral Vitalia Yukiko Kahurangi - Personal Diplomatic Consultant (5pt cost for Starfleet, gain Special Asset)
-[] Federalise Auxiliary Units from Tellar: One Cargo Ship (2 Cost from Tellar)
-[] Federalise Fleet Units from Vulcan: 1 Oberth (1 cost from Vulcan)
-[] Federalise Fleet Units from Rigel: 1 Oda-Gach (1 cost from Rigel)
-[] Dhara Heavy Industry Park - Heavy Industry (5 Cost to Andoria, gain Heavy Industry asset)
-[] UESPA Deep Space Engineering - Engineering Team (10 Cost from United Earth, gain Engineering Team with 2 Engineering Ships, 3 Cargo Ships, 1 Freighter)
-[] Vulcan Survey Corps - Recon team (3 cost for Vulcan, gain +1 to outpost and starbase atttempts to detect incoming ships, gain 1 Civilian Research Cruiser)
-[] Andorian Orbital Guard Runabouts (3 cost for Andorian Guard, gain +1 to outpost and starbase atttempts to detect incoming ships)
(contents transferred to vote on Page 1682)
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lbmaian
a thirsty squirrel
- Location
- USA
Anyway, I'll probably be busy for the rest of the day, so I may not be able to amend or lobby for my vote further.
Please delegate to Briefvoice or someone else rather than me if a better plan comes up.
I will say that I still think it's premature to get more logistics when it's yet unclear we need more. Not that I'm sure we absolutely won't need them; just that we don't know enough yet, and likely won't know until we see the engineering and heavy industry options in action. And that we'll be told explicitly or be able to deduce that we need more logistics in time, and that we'll still be able to procure them then - all of which has been the case before in the GBZ. I'd just rather get stuff I'm sure will be useful now, over stuff I'm not sure will be useful yet (if ever).
edit: And I'm not touching the PRESIDENT vote with a ten foot pole.
Please delegate to Briefvoice or someone else rather than me if a better plan comes up.
I will say that I still think it's premature to get more logistics when it's yet unclear we need more. Not that I'm sure we absolutely won't need them; just that we don't know enough yet, and likely won't know until we see the engineering and heavy industry options in action. And that we'll be told explicitly or be able to deduce that we need more logistics in time, and that we'll still be able to procure them then - all of which has been the case before in the GBZ. I'd just rather get stuff I'm sure will be useful now, over stuff I'm not sure will be useful yet (if ever).
edit: And I'm not touching the PRESIDENT vote with a ten foot pole.
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- Location
- Germany
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Thought: First clean up our own house (exit strategy), then talk to the Ked Paddah to get them on our boat (all participants into one direction). Talking to the KP about what to do with the Licori requires that we know how we want to proceed, not vice versa.
[x] Briefvoice
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Random Member
Gardener of Human Happiness
- Location
- Behind You
[X][PRESIDENT] Addressing Council Division
[X][PRESIDENT] Insufficient Exit Strategy
[X][PRESIDENT] Seek Individual Diplomatic Contact with Major Licori Houses
[X] Plan Grey Lady
[X][PRESIDENT] Insufficient Exit Strategy
[X][PRESIDENT] Seek Individual Diplomatic Contact with Major Licori Houses
[X] Plan Grey Lady
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
EDIT:
If anyone wants to try to convince me to find better uses for the two points that "Plan Iron Lady" now spends on a lone Tellarite cargo ship, or on anything else, they are welcome to do so. I am open to compromise. I can understand that some people think laying in extra logistics ships is a waste of resources at this time, and prefer to focus on building up the maximum possible force of warships.
I disagree for reasons I've already outlined, but I understand.
And they appear to have a rather alien mindset in some ways, as shown by the fact that they turned down free help from one of our explorers because it wouldn't be "prudent" to work with that ship at that time. We need to understand them.
Furthermore, the Ked Paddah have never told us their own side of this story in full detail, as far as I can remember. We can't plan a viable exit strategy without knowing how they're going to react to whatever we do, any more than we can plan it without knowing how the Licori themselves will react. The Ked Paddah are therefore a critical piece of this puzzle in my opinion. The more we neglect them, the more likely they are to be a serious complication.
If anyone wants to try to convince me to find better uses for the two points that "Plan Iron Lady" now spends on a lone Tellarite cargo ship, or on anything else, they are welcome to do so. I am open to compromise. I can understand that some people think laying in extra logistics ships is a waste of resources at this time, and prefer to focus on building up the maximum possible force of warships.
I disagree for reasons I've already outlined, but I understand.
The thing is, they're potentially a source of information. They've known the Licori longer than us, and have physically occupied at least one Licori world which gives them a LOT more information on Licori society than we have, potentially at least. The Ked Paddah may tell us things that we need to know in order to make a good plan.
And they appear to have a rather alien mindset in some ways, as shown by the fact that they turned down free help from one of our explorers because it wouldn't be "prudent" to work with that ship at that time. We need to understand them.
Furthermore, the Ked Paddah have never told us their own side of this story in full detail, as far as I can remember. We can't plan a viable exit strategy without knowing how they're going to react to whatever we do, any more than we can plan it without knowing how the Licori themselves will react. The Ked Paddah are therefore a critical piece of this puzzle in my opinion. The more we neglect them, the more likely they are to be a serious complication.
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- Location
- Germany
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Good points. You know what? Best we'd do that in parallel. Start formulating a plan (and getting the info) and also talking to the KP and the Gaeni. LIke Jalta - "Asap prepare a summit of all concerned (Federation, Gaeni, Ked Paddah), perhaps invite a Romulan observer and develop a plan for the war and how to conclude it without a genocide or generations of guerilla war".
Chaos Blade
Procrastinating Writer
- Location
- Buenos Aires, Argentina
Going to hold off voting till I see if the modifications end; Your current mod seems better (the move of industry mobilization from Tellar to Andor is very reasonable, given that we took a hit to the Tellar pool thanks to the Vulcans, so we want to spread the expenditure around.
Do we know the effects from having federalized cargo ships? I know we will need them if we want to move the Fed engineers (I am going to assume the cargo ships represent more the support infrastructure than organic transport elements, if otherwise, we might want to fix that for the next time)
Chaos Blade
Procrastinating Writer
- Location
- Buenos Aires, Argentina
Got a suggestion (which is why I am double posting and not editing)
Instead of this:
[][PRESIDENT] Chance for further diplomacy with all Licori Houses
why not this
[][PRESIDENT] Chance for further diplomacy with *all* Belligerents
this way we can get in talks will all of them, including the Licori houses and could serve as a chance to meet and coordinate with the Ked Paddah
Instead of this:
[][PRESIDENT] Chance for further diplomacy with all Licori Houses
why not this
[][PRESIDENT] Chance for further diplomacy with *all* Belligerents
this way we can get in talks will all of them, including the Licori houses and could serve as a chance to meet and coordinate with the Ked Paddah
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
My plan comes about as close to that as possible, given that:
1) We need more information on the internal structure of the Licori before we can do anything useful in terms of planning.*
2) We need to talk to the Ked Paddah.
3) We need to keep the Council from disintegrating into internal political squabbles before we get a chance to resolve this crisis.
I don't think N'Gir is going to simply forget to plan for a successful end to the conflict just because it isn't one of the three big things that we emphasize to her in this one meeting. I have no doubt opposition political leaders will continue to pressure her, and we should realistically have other chances to advise her. But we can't make a good plan until we gather the necessary information. My "talk to the Houses" and "talk to the Ked Paddah" votes are intended as the minimum necessary to gather the needed information. If I had a fourth vote I might seriously consider spending it on the "exit strategy" talking point, but I don't.
Since I can only pick so many talking points at once, I have to prioritize.
__________________________________________
*I can't help but wonder if any of this might have played out differently if we'd spent an intel report or two on things like "Licori Diplomatic Posture." Or did we do that and I forgot?
I don't know how long voting will be open or at what times I may make future modifications. If you consider this version of the plan superior to the last one you may want to switch now. Dunno.
The biggest issue that concerns me is that rush-building outposts and space stations and whatnot may require extra servings of cargo ships compared to the slower tempo of operations in the Gabriel Expanse. Or that the significantly larger fleet deployment we've committed may start 'gulping' a lot more supplies once it's actually engaged in continuous combat operations. Or that we will at some point want to deploy SOME teams to the border zone that don't have their own ships (including but not limited to Starfleet Engineering Corps).
All of those are speculative, but hedging against them seems reasonable to me- and again, this all originated because I was trying to figure out what to do with the small amount of 'loose change' left over after I'd budgeted 26/30 of our original mobilization capacity.
I don't think I want to do that because it sounds like an attempt to replace one of the given vote options ("talk to Ked Paddah") with a strictly superior and broader option ("talk to everyone.")
That seems to be the kind of write-in that makes Oneiros do the Picardpalm, because it's effectively us refusing to accept the vote options given and demanding ones that are better for us.
I'd rather stick to write-in options that address options Oneiros simply didn't discuss, rather than trying to craft cunningly worded write-ins that try to make Oneiros give us all the benefits of the 'canned' options, plus free extra benefits.
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@Simon_Jester at this point the two "Lady" plans seem to have converged to a single point of disagreement.
Tellar Cargo Ship + Andorian 2nd Recon Squad vs. Retired Vice Admiral Heidi Eriksson - Doctrine Specialist
Bottom line, I feel like Doctrine is one of those things you want to get rolling the sooner the better. I share lbmaian's belief that we can pull the cargo ship when we need it, but you have to set doctrine well in advance of needing it.
Tellar Cargo Ship + Andorian 2nd Recon Squad vs. Retired Vice Admiral Heidi Eriksson - Doctrine Specialist
Bottom line, I feel like Doctrine is one of those things you want to get rolling the sooner the better. I share lbmaian's belief that we can pull the cargo ship when we need it, but you have to set doctrine well in advance of needing it.
Forgothrax
Not Going Gently
- Pronouns
- He/Him
@Simon_Jester You are quite alright I'm making those modifications, good sir!