UbeOne
Daydreaming CPU
- Location
- Philippines
- Pronouns
- She/Her
We're doomed!
To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)
- Thread starter OneirosTheWriter
- Start date
- Sci-Fi
-
- Tags
- star trek exploration fully automated luxury gay space communism top level canon (canon) #hashtagcontent all-encompassing space amoeba cardassian boy bands cardassian magical girls darkest bureaucracy debate makes the qm cackle like palpatine hoh is an empire quest it has to be foreign infiltrators more ships ship happens singers delenda est starfleet this is not an empire quest ur waifu is collective?
The objective is vauge and the plan is nonexistant because we dont have enough information.
And that is the entirity of the problem, which I will remind you I and several others pointed out at the beginning of this crisis.
We need to solve that before we go charging in to wreck things or we may find ourselves at the bottom of a very deep hole indeed.
Yes the threat is dire, and we cannot allow it to occur. I am not expecting that we have a comprehensive and exhaustively researched plan before we engage. But we should at least have an idea of what we want the Arcadian Empire to look like at the end of it, and and at least an outline plan of how to get it there.
To do that we need more information.
If we get this wrong it is highly likely we will be in for a long term occupation against a fanatical resistance that has possible access to star busters.
I for one am highly hesitant to drive people with starbusting technology to the point that they feel that they have to use it or face cultural extinction.
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I feel like your attacks are unfair. Transport and communications speeds are slow, and they're trying to decode an entirely different political structure in what is really a very short amount of time. It takes years to understand this stuff.
Why aren't we conducting diplomacy with the Great Houses? Maybe because we don't have any points of contact for most of them. Because the Emperor is deliberately trying to control access and make himself the single point of contact. Because they Licori present themselves as a united polity, whatever the de facto political situation, and ignoring that to presume we can make treaties with individual houses is a very serious step that will make the imperial house (and possibly others) incredibly angry. This shit is hard, yo, and I think they've done a good job at figuring it out in as little a time as they've had.
- Location
- USA
Honestly I am wondering if we may find ourselves in another anti syndicate operation. If you have one or two houses that run stellar collapse and other dangerous experiments while the rest of the houses are responsible in their actions we may be able to limit the war to those two houses.
Also for teams I think we need a second external diplo team and a heavy industry, maybe combine with the iron lady
Also for teams I think we need a second external diplo team and a heavy industry, maybe combine with the iron lady
lbmaian
a thirsty squirrel
- Location
- USA
There is no way we're going to call so many ships that we're not going to have room for the auxiliaries, if we need them. The member fleets don't even have that many high science ships that we can draw from!
edit: oops left this empty
And why do you think we need more auxiliaries to build such stations, outposts, or bases? We haven't been given the costs, so is this is just your speculation? Do you understand the logistics?
edit: Remember, we already have 8 cargo ships and 3 freighters!
From what I can tell, this is premature until we see the costs in action, in the options, or in historical precedent.
Yeah, instead of:
-[] Federalise Auxiliary Units from Tellar: Two Cargo Ships (4 Cost from Tellar)
-[] Vulcan Survey Corps - Recon team (3 cost for Vulcan, gain +1 to outpost and starbase atttempts to detect incoming ships, gain 1 Civilian Research Cruiser)
-[] Andorian Orbital Guard Runabouts (3 cost for Andorian Guard, gain +1 to outpost and starbase atttempts to detect incoming ships)
I'd rather get something I know we want. I'd rather get:
-[] North America Productivity Commission - Heavy Industry (5 Cost to Earth, gain Heavy Industry asset)
-[] Vulcan Survey Corps - Recon team (3 cost for Vulcan, gain +1 to outpost and starbase atttempts to detect incoming ships, gain 1 Civilian Research Cruiser)
-[] Federalise Fleet Units from <Vulcan> (5 cost for explorer, 2 cost for cruiser, 1 cost for frigate, paid against member world you are calling up fleet units from): Oberth (1 cost)
-[] Federalise Fleet Units from <Rigel> (5 cost for explorer, 2 cost for cruiser, 1 cost for frigate, paid against member world you are calling up fleet units from): Oda-Gach (1 cost)
Or if two heavy industry teams is too much too soon, I'm sympathetic to the need to revise our doctrines in the face of the T'Mir exercise disaster:
-[] Retired Vice Admiral Heidi Eriksson - Doctrine Specialist (5pt Cost to Starfleet, gain Doctrine Specialist)
-[] Vulcan Survey Corps - Recon team (3 cost for Vulcan, gain +1 to outpost and starbase atttempts to detect incoming ships, gain 1 Civilian Research Cruiser)
-[] Federalise Fleet Units from <Vulcan> (5 cost for explorer, 2 cost for cruiser, 1 cost for frigate, paid against member world you are calling up fleet units from): Oberth (1 cost)
-[] Federalise Fleet Units from <Rigel> (5 cost for explorer, 2 cost for cruiser, 1 cost for frigate, paid against member world you are calling up fleet units from): Oda-Gach (1 cost)
edit: formatting
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You think it is a plot by the Cardassian affiliate whose name I cannot think of right now?
- Location
- Canada
...the thought occurs that the Lecarre have previously suborned high-ranking FDS personnel, and we didn't find out for years. Given that Stesk is involved, and that as a Pacifist, he hangs out with Betazoids too much to be a spy, regardless of the use any theoretical mind-shielding tech, I don't think we need to worry about the councillors themselves... but it's probably worth looking a little harder at the FDS, with an eye to a purge. Hanlon's Razor suggests that it's probably not a hostile action... but since it's either that or incompetence, we may as well check for spies while we're looking for reasons to sack the responsible parties.
- Location
- Germany
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Lecarre
When did we have the first contact? Because that's the latest point in time we start getting info, the first point in time we get info first hand.
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lbmaian
a thirsty squirrel
- Location
- USA
Well, I'm still undecided on the PRESIDENT actions to take, and I'm also unsure if we need another diplomacy team ASAP, but I will suggest a version of the Iron Lady plan that replaces the speculative auxiliary federalization with something we know will be useful:
Naming it after another name for Kahurangi from an omake:
[X] Plan Grey Lady
-[X] Retired Admiral Vitalia Yukiko Kahurangi - Personal Diplomatic Consultant (5pt cost for Starfleet, gain Special Asset)
-[X] Retired Vice Admiral Heidi Eriksson - Doctrine Specialist (5pt Cost to Starfleet, gain Doctrine Specialist)
-[X] Dhara Heavy Industry Park - Heavy Industry (5 Cost to Andoria, gain Heavy Industry asset)
-[X] UESPA Deep Space Engineering - Engineering Team (10 Cost from United Earth, gain Engineering Team with 2 Engineering Ships, 3 Cargo Ships, 1 Freighter)
-[X] Vulcan Survey Corps - Recon team (3 cost for Vulcan, gain +1 to outpost and starbase atttempts to detect incoming ships, gain 1 Civilian Research Cruiser)
-[X] Federalise Fleet Units from <Vulcan> (5 cost for explorer, 2 cost for cruiser, 1 cost for frigate, paid against member world you are calling up fleet units from): Oberth (1 cost)
-[X] Federalise Fleet Units from <Rigel> (5 cost for explorer, 2 cost for cruiser, 1 cost for frigate, paid against member world you are calling up fleet units from): Oda-Gach (1 cost)
edit: Changed from Tellar heavy industry team to Andor one, since Andor is less likely to attrit war support despite lower initial value; keeping Earth engineering team and Vulcan recon team, since they're slightly superior to the Andorian ones.
Naming it after another name for Kahurangi from an omake:
[X] Plan Grey Lady
-[X] Retired Admiral Vitalia Yukiko Kahurangi - Personal Diplomatic Consultant (5pt cost for Starfleet, gain Special Asset)
-[X] Retired Vice Admiral Heidi Eriksson - Doctrine Specialist (5pt Cost to Starfleet, gain Doctrine Specialist)
-[X] Dhara Heavy Industry Park - Heavy Industry (5 Cost to Andoria, gain Heavy Industry asset)
-[X] UESPA Deep Space Engineering - Engineering Team (10 Cost from United Earth, gain Engineering Team with 2 Engineering Ships, 3 Cargo Ships, 1 Freighter)
-[X] Vulcan Survey Corps - Recon team (3 cost for Vulcan, gain +1 to outpost and starbase atttempts to detect incoming ships, gain 1 Civilian Research Cruiser)
-[X] Federalise Fleet Units from <Vulcan> (5 cost for explorer, 2 cost for cruiser, 1 cost for frigate, paid against member world you are calling up fleet units from): Oberth (1 cost)
-[X] Federalise Fleet Units from <Rigel> (5 cost for explorer, 2 cost for cruiser, 1 cost for frigate, paid against member world you are calling up fleet units from): Oda-Gach (1 cost)
edit: Changed from Tellar heavy industry team to Andor one, since Andor is less likely to attrit war support despite lower initial value; keeping Earth engineering team and Vulcan recon team, since they're slightly superior to the Andorian ones.
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[X][PRESIDENT] Addressing Council Division
[X][PRESIDENT] Insufficient Exit Strategy
[X][PRESIDENT] Need to focus on the Ked Paddah
EDIT: Changed to Plan Grey Lady since it's close enough to what I wanted.
[X] Plan Grey Lady
-[X] Retired Admiral Vitalia Yukiko Kahurangi - Personal Diplomatic Consultant (5pt cost for Starfleet, gain Special Asset)
-[X] Retired Vice Admiral Heidi Eriksson - Doctrine Specialist (5pt Cost to Starfleet, gain Doctrine Specialist)
-[X] Dhara Heavy Industry Park - Heavy Industry (5 Cost to Andoria, gain Heavy Industry asset)
-[X] UESPA Deep Space Engineering - Engineering Team (10 Cost from United Earth, gain Engineering Team with 2 Engineering Ships, 3 Cargo Ships, 1 Freighter)
-[X] Vulcan Survey Corps - Recon team (3 cost for Vulcan, gain +1 to outpost and starbase atttempts to detect incoming ships, gain 1 Civilian Research Cruiser)
-[X] Federalise Fleet Units from <Vulcan> (5 cost for explorer, 2 cost for cruiser, 1 cost for frigate, paid against member world you are calling up fleet units from): Oberth (1 cost)
-[X] Federalise Fleet Units from <Rigel> (5 cost for explorer, 2 cost for cruiser, 1 cost for frigate, paid against member world you are calling up fleet units from): Oda-Gach (1 cost)
[] Mobilization Plan Andorians and Specialists and Industry
-[X] Andorian Orbital Guard Runabouts (3 cost for Andorian Guard, gain +1 to outpost and starbase atttempts to detect incoming ships)
-[X] Andorian Imperial Star Engineers - Engineering Team (10 Cost from Andor, gain Engineering Team with 2 Engineering Ships, 2 Cargo Ships, 1 Freighter)
-[X] Retired Vice Admiral Heidi Eriksson - Doctrine Specialist (5pt Cost to Starfleet, gain Doctrine Specialist)
-[X] Retired Admiral Vitalia Yukiko Kahurangi - Personal Diplomatic Consultant (5pt cost for Starfleet, gain Special Asset)
-[X] North America Productivity Commission - Heavy Industry (5 Cost to Earth, gain Heavy Industry asset)
-[X] Federalise Fleet Units from Vulcan - Vulcan Oberth (1 pt cost to Vulcan)
-[X] Federalise Fleet Units from <Rigel> (5 cost for explorer, 2 cost for cruiser, 1 cost for frigate, paid against member world you are calling up fleet units from): Oda-Gach (1 cost)
My rationale as follows:
1. Andorians have no ships in the attack fleet, so they won't take war weariness from casualties. Therefore more inclined to draw on them.
2. We need a Heavy Industry team to rush completion of the Betazed Starbase. Reading descriptions again, Engineering teams operate remotely in unsettled areas while a Betazoid starbase is home system work, requiring a heavy industry team.
3. Engineering team can be put to work building a forward operating outpost at that mine site we have near the Licori.
4. Go ahead and grab our two specialists.
5. Grab the Vulcan Oberth like we promised outselves we would.
6. I think a third internal diplomatic team is not necessary, as we will likely reassign the two we already have to other tasks one the war heats up and we don't want to be pulling assets at such a high rate.
As for the President vote, I'm mostly soured on write-ins.
[X][PRESIDENT] Insufficient Exit Strategy
[X][PRESIDENT] Need to focus on the Ked Paddah
EDIT: Changed to Plan Grey Lady since it's close enough to what I wanted.
[X] Plan Grey Lady
-[X] Retired Admiral Vitalia Yukiko Kahurangi - Personal Diplomatic Consultant (5pt cost for Starfleet, gain Special Asset)
-[X] Retired Vice Admiral Heidi Eriksson - Doctrine Specialist (5pt Cost to Starfleet, gain Doctrine Specialist)
-[X] Dhara Heavy Industry Park - Heavy Industry (5 Cost to Andoria, gain Heavy Industry asset)
-[X] UESPA Deep Space Engineering - Engineering Team (10 Cost from United Earth, gain Engineering Team with 2 Engineering Ships, 3 Cargo Ships, 1 Freighter)
-[X] Vulcan Survey Corps - Recon team (3 cost for Vulcan, gain +1 to outpost and starbase atttempts to detect incoming ships, gain 1 Civilian Research Cruiser)
-[X] Federalise Fleet Units from <Vulcan> (5 cost for explorer, 2 cost for cruiser, 1 cost for frigate, paid against member world you are calling up fleet units from): Oberth (1 cost)
-[X] Federalise Fleet Units from <Rigel> (5 cost for explorer, 2 cost for cruiser, 1 cost for frigate, paid against member world you are calling up fleet units from): Oda-Gach (1 cost)
-[X] Andorian Orbital Guard Runabouts (3 cost for Andorian Guard, gain +1 to outpost and starbase atttempts to detect incoming ships)
-[X] Andorian Imperial Star Engineers - Engineering Team (10 Cost from Andor, gain Engineering Team with 2 Engineering Ships, 2 Cargo Ships, 1 Freighter)
-[X] Retired Vice Admiral Heidi Eriksson - Doctrine Specialist (5pt Cost to Starfleet, gain Doctrine Specialist)
-[X] Retired Admiral Vitalia Yukiko Kahurangi - Personal Diplomatic Consultant (5pt cost for Starfleet, gain Special Asset)
-[X] North America Productivity Commission - Heavy Industry (5 Cost to Earth, gain Heavy Industry asset)
-[X] Federalise Fleet Units from Vulcan - Vulcan Oberth (1 pt cost to Vulcan)
-[X] Federalise Fleet Units from <Rigel> (5 cost for explorer, 2 cost for cruiser, 1 cost for frigate, paid against member world you are calling up fleet units from): Oda-Gach (1 cost)
My rationale as follows:
1. Andorians have no ships in the attack fleet, so they won't take war weariness from casualties. Therefore more inclined to draw on them.
2. We need a Heavy Industry team to rush completion of the Betazed Starbase. Reading descriptions again, Engineering teams operate remotely in unsettled areas while a Betazoid starbase is home system work, requiring a heavy industry team.
3. Engineering team can be put to work building a forward operating outpost at that mine site we have near the Licori.
4. Go ahead and grab our two specialists.
5. Grab the Vulcan Oberth like we promised outselves we would.
6. I think a third internal diplomatic team is not necessary, as we will likely reassign the two we already have to other tasks one the war heats up and we don't want to be pulling assets at such a high rate.
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Chaos Blade
Procrastinating Writer
- Location
- Buenos Aires, Argentina
That was my first impulse, the precedent is there and it is worrisome. as you reasoned Stesk is unlikely to be compromised, or if so to remain covert for long, but logicality of Vulcans aside, there is always the possibility that the data he (thru the FDS, for instance) is getting has been tampered with (garbage in, garbage out), but we can't discard some other form of insidious attack (I still remember those worm things from early TNG) or some other form of subornment (a logical trap?) without Stesk there I'd be more quicker to go for the infiltration option, but we can't wholly discard it either, the council has acted weirdly as of late, I am pointing out to the Vulcan thing and then this? (and, again, vulcan councilors are involved here as well, so, that is two, one more and..)
I mean, I can buy the current president being less... so than needed, but this reaction (and, like mentioned the Vulcan issue) aren't good replies either, or well timed.
An infiltration would be the best case scenario here, because the alternatives go all the way to councilors doing empire building and some other issues that could make current affairs a non issue
Don't even joke about that!
lbmaian
a thirsty squirrel
- Location
- USA
The reason I didn't go for the Andorians yet is because:
1) Their options are a bit weaker than the comparative ones: Vulcan recon has 1 additional research cruiser, Earth/Tellar engineering has 1 additional cargo ship
2) They currently have lower war support, and we have options to "balance" war support
3) I plan on getting those Andorian assets later
That said, getting the Andor heavy industry team instead of an Earth or Tellar one would be prudent, so I'll change to that.
Okay, that's reasonable. I've edited my vote to Plan Grey Lady.
Nervos Belli
Don't think this means you've won!
- Location
- Murica
[X][PRESIDENT] Addressing Council Division
[X][PRESIDENT] Insufficient Exit Strategy
[X][PRESIDENT] Need to focus on the Ked Paddah
[X] Plan Grey Lady
[X][PRESIDENT] Insufficient Exit Strategy
[X][PRESIDENT] Need to focus on the Ked Paddah
[X] Plan Grey Lady
@Erandil, what would a viable exit strategy look like?
The Licori are a bunch of aliens the Federation still barely understands, as proven by the bare fact that their leadership is having the conversation we just read.
If we're talking about Space Iraq, the problem with the historical second Iraq War isn't that Bush didn't have an exit strategy. It's that he had a bad exit strategy, one that was based on grave misunderstandings about the facts on the ground in Iraq. No exit strategy formulated on that same knowledge base could have been a good strategy, because the underlying problem wasn't failure to plan, it was willful ignorance of the realities about what would happen when the US and its allies occupied the country.
Here, we have a different but related problem: there are too many unknown unknowns. We don't know which if any of the Houses will back our goals rather than risk our wrath. We don't know if they'll actually back us or just pretend to. We don't know how much the Licori truly need mentats versus merely thinking they do versus knowing they don't need them but wanting to keep them.
We have no hope of formally composing a detailed exit strategy, and if we did, it would not survive contact with the enemy. The best case scenario would be N'Gir making an "exit plan" that we end up throwing out the window in a matter of months. The worst case scenario is that we end up committed to pursuing a non-viable, nonsensical strategy based on an inflexible plan we'd have been better off without.
Having an exit strategy for winning a war against an enemy you don't know isn't going to make the war more winnable, or more likely to end in a favorable manner.
@DarknessSmiles, @Night ...
My plans have us talking to all the houses, and calling up 2/3 of the available runabout forces within the next month or so, with an option on calling up the other third if we decide it's worth risking those cadets next month. What do you think?
EDIT: By the way, my main reason for NOT calling up more external diplomats is that it seems likely we'll be holding a diplomatic summit that includes the Licori and/or the Ked Paddah soon whether Starfleet does anything with the teams it's mobilized or not. That means we may well not NEED diplomatic teams so badly this turn. If we don't, then that means we can concentrate on getting some more defenses set up out near Betazed. Which along with the runabouts, helps address DarknessSmiles' concern about securing our space against mentats with star-busting bombs.
If we don't have enough information to even start formulating an exit plan we have no business starting this war in the first place...
If the lack of information is as dire as it seems it would have made far more sense to, for example, simply declare the border of Licori space a special borderzone with an increased focus on sensor stations and interdiction of any possible Mentat ship.
I frankly never thought that the Federation would declare such a massive and aggressive war while possessing so little information about the conflict and foe.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
To all those suggesting "Insufficient Exit Strategy" as a Council vote, precisely what do you think this exit strategy should look like? Do you feel that the Federation, its president, or its other senior leadership have enough information to make a coherent plan as to how to end this conflict in a way that gives us the security we require?
Do you feel that this is a higher priority than, for example, making actual contact with the Licori Houses so that we find out what is going on and can determine which of them are likely to be our allies or enemies in this struggle?
If you do not think that having a plan is a higher priority than talking to the Licori houses, then this is a poor time to focus on "we don't have enough exit strategy." Not when we'd be doing so at the expense of simply taking the obvious lesson from our discussion with Langford and Stesk, which is that we need to negotiate with the Licori Houses, not just with the Emperor and his chosen envoy(s). This is why I voted:
[][PRESIDENT] Request Diplomatic Summit with all Major Licori Houses
[][PRESIDENT] Need to focus on the Ked Paddah
[][PRESIDENT] Addressing Council Division
[] Plan Iron Lady
-[] Retired Admiral Vitalia Yukiko Kahurangi - Personal Diplomatic Consultant (5pt cost for Starfleet, gain Special Asset)
-[] Federalise Auxiliary Units from Tellar: Two Cargo Ships (4 Cost from Tellar)
-[] Shorc Xurth Resource Combine - Heavy Industry (5 Cost to Tellar, gain Heavy Industry asset)
-[] UESPA Deep Space Engineering - Engineering Team (10 Cost from United Earth, gain Engineering Team with 2 Engineering Ships, 3 Cargo Ships, 1 Freighter)
-[] Vulcan Survey Corps - Recon team (3 cost for Vulcan, gain +1 to outpost and starbase atttempts to detect incoming ships, gain 1 Civilian Research Cruiser)
-[] Andorian Orbital Guard Runabouts (3 cost for Andorian Guard, gain +1 to outpost and starbase atttempts to detect incoming ships)
EDIT: (X's removed for conservation)
War has not been declared. Even if war had been declared, we could at any time declare a cease-fire or simply unilaterally halt offensive operations if at any moment we get even a hint of the Licori being willing to talk to us and compromise on this issue. Which they did not give us hints of doing, until the literal last hour before the ultimatum ran out.
And the only reason the Federation has even threatened to declare war is because the information we do already have. Namely, information that indicates that the potential for Federation loss of life if this threat goes unchecked is only one step down from the Borg or the Biophage. Two threats the Federation did "declare war on" when it had only minimal information about their nature.
Because sometimes, if you encounter a large animal with big teeth and it roars and leaps at you, you can't spend time going "what a nice kitty, I wonder what it eats" before dodging the roaring leap. Otherwise, the answer to the question may be "you."
We have a state of emergency. The emergency ends when the goal is fulfilled. If the goal CAN be fulfilled without violence (that is, if the Licori are prepared to allow it), then we can do that. If not, then we end up having to use violence. Continuing to investigate the situation is within our remit as part of the state of emergency; nothing stops us from having political and xenopsych analysis teams specifically digging through information on the Licori in an attempt to find a way to stabilize things without war, or with only very limited war.
[Well, except for Oneiros not having thought of that as an option yet.
]
If we refrain from acting as though anything significantly frightening is going on (as in, if we had not called a state of emergency) until such time as we are sure know how to proceed, we may not get the chance. Remember that against the Biophage, a state of emergency was declared several months before we even located the Biophage 'homeworld', before we had a clear understanding of how to stop the Biophage from infecting new hosts, before we were sure the Romulans would make solid allies or shaky ones.
There was no possible way we could have constructed a "road map to victory" for the Biophage, before resolving to fight the Biophage with every means at our disposal, without taking on a grave risk of ending up losing to the Biophage and being eaten.
Almost by definition, a state of emergency is a situation too dire for us to sit around and wait for events to unfold and for more information to become clear step by step. Existential threats to homeworld populations qualify. We may not know how to end this yet, but we can't defer deciding that the situation is an important crisis until after we already know how to make it go away. The fire has already started; we cannot wait to sound the alarm until after we find the extinguisher.
My choice to pick auxiliaries now is, quite simply, because I am SURE that at some point during the campaign we will need them, and that RIGHT NOW we have a few extra points of Cost that in my plan would otherwise go unused, simply because I can get two runabout squadrons for 6 cost and am reluctant to buy the third for 10 cost total.
Calling up a bunch of warships for patrol would be a viable alternative- but we can equally well turn things around and call up the warships next turn now that we have the freighters. It is not a question of "warships or freighters," it is a question of which we get first. And we've gained a lot more warships in the Licori Border Zone lately than we have freighters, so it seems likely to me that we will be constrained more by freighter shortages in the immediate future than by warship shortages.
This is basic common sense and historical precedent. No, I obviously do not know in advance literally every aspect of Oneiros's logistics system and rules including the ones that he just made up and some of which he hasn't shared with us. What I do know is that lack of supply transport capability is one of the biggest limiting factors on military and infrastructural buildups for all nations throughout history, and that we've already had cases where deliberately going out of our way to liberally supply a border zone commander with extra freighters resulted in her being able to do good things that would otherwise not have been possible.
If there were other options to spend that four cost on besides Red Squad, or "even more warships," I might pick those instead. But I do not for a moment feel as though I'm somehow being foolish or ignorant by saying "gee, let's lay in a couple of extra freighters." I would bet a considerable sum of money on us needing those freighters eventually.
Do you feel that this is a higher priority than, for example, making actual contact with the Licori Houses so that we find out what is going on and can determine which of them are likely to be our allies or enemies in this struggle?
If you do not think that having a plan is a higher priority than talking to the Licori houses, then this is a poor time to focus on "we don't have enough exit strategy." Not when we'd be doing so at the expense of simply taking the obvious lesson from our discussion with Langford and Stesk, which is that we need to negotiate with the Licori Houses, not just with the Emperor and his chosen envoy(s). This is why I voted:
[][PRESIDENT] Request Diplomatic Summit with all Major Licori Houses
[][PRESIDENT] Need to focus on the Ked Paddah
[][PRESIDENT] Addressing Council Division
[] Plan Iron Lady
-[] Retired Admiral Vitalia Yukiko Kahurangi - Personal Diplomatic Consultant (5pt cost for Starfleet, gain Special Asset)
-[] Federalise Auxiliary Units from Tellar: Two Cargo Ships (4 Cost from Tellar)
-[] Shorc Xurth Resource Combine - Heavy Industry (5 Cost to Tellar, gain Heavy Industry asset)
-[] UESPA Deep Space Engineering - Engineering Team (10 Cost from United Earth, gain Engineering Team with 2 Engineering Ships, 3 Cargo Ships, 1 Freighter)
-[] Vulcan Survey Corps - Recon team (3 cost for Vulcan, gain +1 to outpost and starbase atttempts to detect incoming ships, gain 1 Civilian Research Cruiser)
-[] Andorian Orbital Guard Runabouts (3 cost for Andorian Guard, gain +1 to outpost and starbase atttempts to detect incoming ships)
EDIT: (X's removed for conservation)
Which is exactly what we did. We created that border zone, we sent a massive fleet there, and as soon as we get around to using the state of emergency for anything other than calling up more internal diplomacy teams so we can call up teams faster, we'll start building up other kinds of defenses and interdiction facilities in that border zone.
War has not been declared. Even if war had been declared, we could at any time declare a cease-fire or simply unilaterally halt offensive operations if at any moment we get even a hint of the Licori being willing to talk to us and compromise on this issue. Which they did not give us hints of doing, until the literal last hour before the ultimatum ran out.
You were right to never think so. The Federation has not declared war. The Federation has threatened to declare war if the Licori continue to refuse to negotiate. The Licori have, apparently, decided they would prefer to negotiate. The results of this negotiation remain to be seen.
And the only reason the Federation has even threatened to declare war is because the information we do already have. Namely, information that indicates that the potential for Federation loss of life if this threat goes unchecked is only one step down from the Borg or the Biophage. Two threats the Federation did "declare war on" when it had only minimal information about their nature.
Because sometimes, if you encounter a large animal with big teeth and it roars and leaps at you, you can't spend time going "what a nice kitty, I wonder what it eats" before dodging the roaring leap. Otherwise, the answer to the question may be "you."
This is one of the advantages of the distinction between a state of emergency and a declaration of war.
We have a state of emergency. The emergency ends when the goal is fulfilled. If the goal CAN be fulfilled without violence (that is, if the Licori are prepared to allow it), then we can do that. If not, then we end up having to use violence. Continuing to investigate the situation is within our remit as part of the state of emergency; nothing stops us from having political and xenopsych analysis teams specifically digging through information on the Licori in an attempt to find a way to stabilize things without war, or with only very limited war.
[Well, except for Oneiros not having thought of that as an option yet.
]If we refrain from acting as though anything significantly frightening is going on (as in, if we had not called a state of emergency) until such time as we are sure know how to proceed, we may not get the chance. Remember that against the Biophage, a state of emergency was declared several months before we even located the Biophage 'homeworld', before we had a clear understanding of how to stop the Biophage from infecting new hosts, before we were sure the Romulans would make solid allies or shaky ones.
There was no possible way we could have constructed a "road map to victory" for the Biophage, before resolving to fight the Biophage with every means at our disposal, without taking on a grave risk of ending up losing to the Biophage and being eaten.
Almost by definition, a state of emergency is a situation too dire for us to sit around and wait for events to unfold and for more information to become clear step by step. Existential threats to homeworld populations qualify. We may not know how to end this yet, but we can't defer deciding that the situation is an important crisis until after we already know how to make it go away. The fire has already started; we cannot wait to sound the alarm until after we find the extinguisher.
The assets we call may not be ships; they may well be other things instead. We may need science teams, or something else, we may not even be able to predict now what we'll urgently require later.
My choice to pick auxiliaries now is, quite simply, because I am SURE that at some point during the campaign we will need them, and that RIGHT NOW we have a few extra points of Cost that in my plan would otherwise go unused, simply because I can get two runabout squadrons for 6 cost and am reluctant to buy the third for 10 cost total.
Calling up a bunch of warships for patrol would be a viable alternative- but we can equally well turn things around and call up the warships next turn now that we have the freighters. It is not a question of "warships or freighters," it is a question of which we get first. And we've gained a lot more warships in the Licori Border Zone lately than we have freighters, so it seems likely to me that we will be constrained more by freighter shortages in the immediate future than by warship shortages.
This is basic common sense and historical precedent. No, I obviously do not know in advance literally every aspect of Oneiros's logistics system and rules including the ones that he just made up and some of which he hasn't shared with us. What I do know is that lack of supply transport capability is one of the biggest limiting factors on military and infrastructural buildups for all nations throughout history, and that we've already had cases where deliberately going out of our way to liberally supply a border zone commander with extra freighters resulted in her being able to do good things that would otherwise not have been possible.
If there were other options to spend that four cost on besides Red Squad, or "even more warships," I might pick those instead. But I do not for a moment feel as though I'm somehow being foolish or ignorant by saying "gee, let's lay in a couple of extra freighters." I would bet a considerable sum of money on us needing those freighters eventually.
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KnightDisciple
Love God. Do Right. Fear No Man.
- Location
- Midwest, USA
Yeah I'm just gonna skim until we hit a threadmark again. Just can't get myself into the mentality to reliably vote on this one way or another.
- Pronouns
- She/Her
*snip old plan*
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Godwinson
"Well, I've got nothing."
You know, @Simon_Jester, you've convinced me.
[X][PRESIDENT] Request Diplomatic Summit with all Major Licori Houses
[X][PRESIDENT] Need to focus on the Ked Paddah
[X][PRESIDENT] Addressing Council Division
[X] Plan Iron Lady
-[X] Retired Admiral Vitalia Yukiko Kahurangi - Personal Diplomatic Consultant (5pt cost for Starfleet, gain Special Asset)
-[X] Federalise Auxiliary Units from Tellar: Two Cargo Ships (4 Cost from Tellar)
-[X] Shorc Xurth Resource Combine - Heavy Industry (5 Cost to Tellar, gain Heavy Industry asset)
-[X] UESPA Deep Space Engineering - Engineering Team (10 Cost from United Earth, gain Engineering Team with 2 Engineering Ships, 3 Cargo Ships, 1 Freighter)
-[X] Vulcan Survey Corps - Recon team (3 cost for Vulcan, gain +1 to outpost and starbase atttempts to detect incoming ships, gain 1 Civilian Research Cruiser)
-[X] Andorian Orbital Guard Runabouts (3 cost for Andorian Guard, gain +1 to outpost and starbase atttempts to detect incoming ships)
[X][PRESIDENT] Request Diplomatic Summit with all Major Licori Houses
[X][PRESIDENT] Need to focus on the Ked Paddah
[X][PRESIDENT] Addressing Council Division
[X] Plan Iron Lady
-[X] Retired Admiral Vitalia Yukiko Kahurangi - Personal Diplomatic Consultant (5pt cost for Starfleet, gain Special Asset)
-[X] Federalise Auxiliary Units from Tellar: Two Cargo Ships (4 Cost from Tellar)
-[X] Shorc Xurth Resource Combine - Heavy Industry (5 Cost to Tellar, gain Heavy Industry asset)
-[X] UESPA Deep Space Engineering - Engineering Team (10 Cost from United Earth, gain Engineering Team with 2 Engineering Ships, 3 Cargo Ships, 1 Freighter)
-[X] Vulcan Survey Corps - Recon team (3 cost for Vulcan, gain +1 to outpost and starbase atttempts to detect incoming ships, gain 1 Civilian Research Cruiser)
-[X] Andorian Orbital Guard Runabouts (3 cost for Andorian Guard, gain +1 to outpost and starbase atttempts to detect incoming ships)
See argument below for why I think requesting a summit of Licori Major Houses is impossible without further groundwork. Please consider carefully before voting for that good-sounding write-in and consider if the foundation is there for it to be a success.
Must I know the solution to a problem before pointing out that it is in fact a problem?
I don't expect that we'll say "no good exit strategy" and next turn there'll be an exit strategy. What I want is for the President to keep "Exit Strategy" at the top of her mind when making decisions, and start pushing her advisors and the other involved parties (Ked Peddah and Gaeni) for ideas and thoughts on what they want out of this. It's a statement of a problem, not a promise we have a great solution right this instant.
Yes I do, at least in the way that people are currently phrasing it in their write-in. We don't have direct diplomatic contact with the Major Houses right now. More, bypassing the Emperor to appeal to them directly is a strategy that could easily backfire. While the Emperor doesn't have control over them for things like restricting mentat production, I am sure that they have an agreement among themselves to stand united on foreign policy versus aliens. There is a reason that they present themselves to outsiders as the Arcadian Empire, not a collection of houses.
I might be willing to vote for a write-in that was more modest in ambition. "Push to establish individual diplomatic contact with Licori Houses." Calling a diplomatic summit of Houses at this point is too premature.
Well obviously I disagree with that logic. I think that an exit strategy will help us understand what we want from the houses and how we hope to maneuver to achieve it.
Must I know the solution to a problem before pointing out that it is in fact a problem?
I don't expect that we'll say "no good exit strategy" and next turn there'll be an exit strategy. What I want is for the President to keep "Exit Strategy" at the top of her mind when making decisions, and start pushing her advisors and the other involved parties (Ked Peddah and Gaeni) for ideas and thoughts on what they want out of this. It's a statement of a problem, not a promise we have a great solution right this instant.
Yes I do, at least in the way that people are currently phrasing it in their write-in. We don't have direct diplomatic contact with the Major Houses right now. More, bypassing the Emperor to appeal to them directly is a strategy that could easily backfire. While the Emperor doesn't have control over them for things like restricting mentat production, I am sure that they have an agreement among themselves to stand united on foreign policy versus aliens. There is a reason that they present themselves to outsiders as the Arcadian Empire, not a collection of houses.
I might be willing to vote for a write-in that was more modest in ambition. "Push to establish individual diplomatic contact with Licori Houses." Calling a diplomatic summit of Houses at this point is too premature.
Well obviously I disagree with that logic. I think that an exit strategy will help us understand what we want from the houses and how we hope to maneuver to achieve it.
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