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To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)

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To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest) Starfleet Ship Design Bureau, Refit ("To Boldly Go...")
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[X] [WG] A Fleet "Battle". The Gale, Harmony, Astute, and Assist vs the T'Mir and runabouts to simulate civilian traffic. The Svai and Calypso are available as a reserve. The objective is to prevent the "mentat" on the T'Mir from penetrating the patrol area and destructively completing their thesis, which would result in the annihilation of Betazed. A second Oberth [Torbriel] is secretly participating as a decoy. Cost: 4pp.
 
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Simon_Jester said:
Well, in a realistic fleet wargame they'd actually try this multiple times, sometimes with Thirishar participating, sometimes not.

At the same time, though, remember that Task Force Four IS our goalie force here. And Task Force Four consists of, well... Thirishar, leading Gale, Harmony, Astute, and Assist, the exact same four ships that make up the bulk of the main guard force in the 4pp vote.

The difference between the 4pp and 6pp votes is that the 6pp vote basically says "Okay, TF4, try to defend Betazed without the T'Mir, but with all your other ships of force." While the 4pp vote says "Okay, TF4, try to defend Betazed with the T'Mir part of the opposing force, and with your explorer tied behind your back."

The latter option might be interesting to see done, but if we're trying to make sure our "don't let stars get blown up" defense plan actually works... we need to test it at least once with the explorer as part of the task force. Otherwise, if the plan doesn't work and T'Mir manages to get past the guard ships, we won't know if it's because of a weakness in our strategy that will be a problem even if we include Thirishar, or if it's a weakness that would have been avoided by having the explorer present, which in the real deal we would.
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I think the better test would be the one that minimizes our available forces. Assume the worst, that way we'll be more than prepared for the not-as-bad. As such:


[X] [WG] A Fleet "Battle". The Gale, Harmony, Astute, and Assist vs the T'Mir and runabouts to simulate civilian traffic. The Svai and Calypso are available as a reserve. The objective is to prevent the "mentat" on the T'Mir from penetrating the patrol area and destructively completing their thesis, which would result in the annihilation of Betazed. A second Oberth [Torbriel] is secretly participating as a decoy. Cost: 4pp.


Its too bad we can't also have a mock battle against the Gaeni to practice our anti tech doctrine.
 
[X] [WG] A Fleet "Battle". The Gale, Harmony, Astute, and Assist vs the T'Mir and runabouts to simulate civilian traffic. The Svai and Calypso are available as a reserve. The objective is to prevent the "mentat" on the T'Mir from penetrating the patrol area and destructively completing their thesis, which would result in the annihilation of Betazed. A second Oberth [Torbriel] is secretly participating as a decoy. Cost: 4pp
 
Do mentats usually work alone, or do they have teams and allies with them?
 
[X] [WG] A Fleet "Battle". The Thirishar, Gale, Harmony, Astute, and Assist vs the T'Mir and runabouts to simulate civilian traffic. The Svai and Calypso are available as a reserve. The objective is to prevent the "mentat" on the T'Mir from penetrating the patrol area and destructively completing their thesis, which would result in the annihilation of Betazed. A second Oberth [Torbriel] is secretly participating as a decoy. [Please caucus this vote with the similar plan that does not use Thirishar, if it does not win] Cost: 6pp.
 
[X][WG] A 2v2 with any Ships, including member world ships - Gaeni Tech-Frigate and Tech-Cruiser versus an Excelsior [Excelsior] and a Miranda [Svai] with the explicit purpose of learning to counter a Tech-Ship doctrine.
 
And we're back to a tie again. Nearly three-way again too.

[X] [WG] A Fleet "Battle". The Gale, Harmony, Astute, and Assist vs the T'Mir and runabouts to simulate civilian traffic. The Svai and Calypso are available as a reserve. The objective is to prevent the "mentat" on the T'Mir from penetrating the patrol area and destructively completing their thesis, which would result in the annihilation of Betazed. A second Oberth [Torbriel] is secretly participating as a decoy. Cost: 4pp.
No. of Votes: 10
tryrar
Aeondrac
AKuz
Blackshard
Forgothrax
Godwinson
Joshrand1982
Leila Hann
Theunderbolt
UbeOne

[X] [WG] A Fleet "Battle". The Thirishar, Gale, Harmony, Astute, and Assist vs the T'Mir and runabouts to simulate civilian traffic. The Svai and Calypso are available as a reserve. The objective is to prevent the "mentat" on the T'Mir from penetrating the patrol area and destructively completing their thesis, which would result in the annihilation of Betazed. A second Oberth [Torbriel] is secretly participating as a decoy. [Please caucus this vote with the similar plan that does not use Thirishar, if it does not win] Cost: 6pp.
No. of Votes: 10
Mr Tebbs
aeqnai
aledeth
AlphaDelta
JesseJ
KnightDisciple
lbmaian
MTB
Simon_Jester
SynchronizedWritersBlock

[X][WG] A 2v2 with any Ships, including member world ships - Gaeni Tech-Frigate and Tech-Cruiser versus an Excelsior [Excelsior] and a Miranda [Svai] with the explicit purpose of learning to counter a Tech-Ship doctrine.
No. of Votes: 9
Briefvoice
Chaos Blade
chriswriter90
Erandil
Kaze
Nervos Belli
Night_stalker
pbluekan
Void Stalker

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[X][ROLES] Do Nothing [2.0x Weighting on this vote]
[X][WG] A 2v2 with any Ships, including member world ships - Gaeni Tech-Frigate and Tech-Cruiser versus an Excelsior [Excelsior] and a Miranda [Svai] with the explicit purpose of learning to counter a Tech-Ship doctrine.
 
[X] [WG] A Fleet "Battle". The Thirishar, Gale, Harmony, Astute, and Assist vs the T'Mir and runabouts to simulate civilian traffic. The Svai and Calypso are available as a reserve. The objective is to prevent the "mentat" on the T'Mir from penetrating the patrol area and destructively completing their thesis, which would result in the annihilation of Betazed. A second Oberth [Torbriel] is secretly participating as a decoy. [Please caucus this vote with the similar plan that does not use Thirishar, if it does not win] Cost: 6pp.
 
[X] [WG] A Fleet "Battle". The Thirishar, Gale, Harmony, Astute, and Assist vs the T'Mir and runabouts to simulate civilian traffic. The Svai and Calypso are available as a reserve. The objective is to prevent the "mentat" on the T'Mir from penetrating the patrol area and destructively completing their thesis, which would result in the annihilation of Betazed. A second Oberth [Torbriel] is secretly participating as a decoy. [Please caucus this vote with the similar plan that does not use Thirishar, if it does not win] Cost: 6pp.
 
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Leila Hann said:
No homo though.
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The scouts are finally catching up in that regards thankfully.

And even before, it depended heavily on where you were and which church you were partnered with. My council voted unanimously to allow gay youth and adults nationwide because they had been allowing it in their region for years already.
 
[X] [WG] A Fleet "Battle". The Thirishar, Gale, Harmony, Astute, and Assist vs the T'Mir and runabouts to simulate civilian traffic. The Svai and Calypso are available as a reserve. The objective is to prevent the "mentat" on the T'Mir from penetrating the patrol area and destructively completing their thesis, which would result in the annihilation of Betazed. A second Oberth [Torbriel] is secretly participating as a decoy. [Please caucus this vote with the similar plan that does not use Thirishar, if it does not win] Cost: 6pp.
 
[X] [WG] A Fleet "Battle". The Thirishar, Gale, Harmony, Astute, and Assist vs the T'Mir and runabouts to simulate civilian traffic. The Svai and Calypso are available as a reserve. The objective is to prevent the "mentat" on the T'Mir from penetrating the patrol area and destructively completing their thesis, which would result in the annihilation of Betazed. A second Oberth [Torbriel] is secretly participating as a decoy. [Please caucus this vote with the similar plan that does not use Thirishar, if it does not win] Cost: 6pp.
 
[X] [WG] A Fleet "Battle". The Thirishar, Gale, Harmony, Astute, and Assist vs the T'Mir and runabouts to simulate civilian traffic. The Svai and Calypso are available as a reserve. The objective is to prevent the "mentat" on the T'Mir from penetrating the patrol area and destructively completing their thesis, which would result in the annihilation of Betazed. A second Oberth [Torbriel] is secretly participating as a decoy. [Please caucus this vote with the similar plan that does not use Thirishar, if it does not win] Cost: 6pp.
 
Briefvoice said:
It's possible all three will be declared null votes for not following the rules. I would rather enjoy that happening.
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Precisely what rules, and what is your grounds for such a... level of acrimony?

Leila Hann said:
I think the better test would be the one that minimizes our available forces. Assume the worst, that way we'll be more than prepared for the not-as-bad.
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The problem is that if you're going to practice doing something, and you practice doing it with one hand tied behind your back... You don't learn anything about how you'd perform or behave in the realistic "both hands available" scenario. And I don't know if you've ever done any kind of sport fighting (a bit of fencing, in my case) but you perform very very differently under an artificial handicap than you do without the artificial handicap. Leaving out a critical part of your defense scheme without first including that part in other practice exercises will result in an exercise that is unrealistic and unbalanced in ways that reduce the amount you can learn.

It's like... if you want to practice operating a spiderweb, you can't just leave out the spider. You won't learn anything useful from the practice other than "gee, it's very important to have a spider sitting on your spiderweb to tie up any bugs it catches, otherwise the bugs get loose." The whole point of the spiderweb is to support the spider, after all. Sure, someone could argue "well, it's a better test to see how the spiderweb performs in isolation." But even if you learn that, it doesn't tell you very much that you can use.

Likewise, you could force soldiers to practice fighting with no ammunition- but all you'd learn is "guns work a lot better when you remember to pack the bullets." You could force surgeons to practice operating on patients in bad lighting- but all you'd learn is "light helps people see better." You could set up a tactical exercise where one of your ships is obsolete and has its main reactor shut down, but you're going to be hella lucky to learn anything*.

Forcing people to fight under artificial circumstances that cripple some of the cornerstones of their fighting ability may sound like good training, but it's actually not. Not unless they're already experienced and practiced in fighting with those cornerstones in place and you're trying to give them some advanced courses on how to fight in unlikely bad-luck situations.
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*(In this case, they only learned anything because Riker and Worf are awesome and because Wesley has the most stupidly dangerous science fair projects in the galaxy, in this case including actual antimatter. And not "drunk Gaeni blows up the building" pittance quantities, either. GEEZ.)
 
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Simon_Jester said:
Precisely what rules, and what is your grounds for such a... level of acrimony?

The problem is that if you're going to practice doing something, and you practice doing it with one hand tied behind your back... You don't learn anything about how you'd perform or behave in the realistic "both hands available" scenario. And I don't know if you've ever done any kind of sport fighting (a bit of fencing, in my case) but you perform very very differently under an artificial handicap than you do without the artificial handicap. Leaving out a critical part of your defense scheme without first including that part in other practice exercises will result in an exercise that is unrealistic and unbalanced in ways that reduce the amount you can learn.

It's like... if you want to practice operating a spiderweb, you can't just leave out the spider. You won't learn anything useful from the practice other than "gee, it's very important to have a spider sitting on your spiderweb to tie up any bugs it catches, otherwise the bugs get loose." The whole point of the spiderweb is to support the spider, after all. Sure, someone could argue "well, it's a better test to see how the spiderweb performs in isolation." But even if you learn that, it doesn't tell you very much that you can use.

Likewise, you could force soldiers to practice fighting with no ammunition- but all you'd learn is "guns work a lot better when you remember to pack the bullets." You could force surgeons to practice operating on patients in bad lighting- but all you'd learn is "light helps people see better." You could set up a tactical exercise where one of your ships is obsolete and has its main reactor shut down, but you're going to be hella lucky to learn anything*.

Forcing people to fight under artificial circumstances that cripple some of the cornerstones of their fighting ability may sound like good training, but it's actually not. Not unless they're already experienced and practiced in fighting with those cornerstones in place and you're trying to give them some advanced courses on how to fight in unlikely bad-luck situations.
__________________________

*(In this case, they only learned anything because Riker and Worf are awesome and because Wesley has the most stupidly dangerous science fair projects in the galaxy, in this case including actual antimatter. And not "drunk Gaeni blows up the building" pittance quantities, either. GEEZ.)
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There's a very, very likely scenario where our task force flagship gets crippled or drawn away. And any tactics we use that don't require the flagship will probably work just the same, but better, with it, since an excelsior operates basically the same way as a smaller ship in battle.
 
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