Kepler's viable in a kind of second-line explorer role - poking things in space secure enough that combat is unlikely. The planned designs are in S7 P5 range.

An explorer does have to be prepared for combat though - they're facing the unknown. I'd expect an explorer to have around the same capability of an Excelsior today for at least the next several decades. In the coming decades, we'll be able to miniaturize and improve efficiency of parts enough to produce an Intrepid that's about as a capable as a base Excelsior yet at sub-megaton sizes.
 
An explorer does have to be prepared for combat though - they're facing the unknown. I'd expect an explorer to have around the same capability of an Excelsior today for at least the next several decades. In the coming decades, we'll be able to miniaturize and improve efficiency of parts enough to produce an Intrepid that's about as a capable as a base Excelsior yet at sub-megaton sizes.
Hence, secondary. The difference between running around in unknown space and running around poking things in border zone.
 
If it wouldn't cause the many, many problems that it would, I would be terribly tempted by an opportunity to buy a large stack of surplus (cloak free) ships from both the Klingons and the Romulans and throw those into Gabriel.

I really do feel like the D7 was the Trek version of the AK-47. Simple, rugged, easy to use, cheap to build and employable in outrageous numbers.

The Council and Starfleet both would never go for it, but the looks on the Cardassians faces as we flooded the whole area would be a thing of joy.

Our bottleneck is trained crew, officers specifically.

I'd offer our new best friends, the Romulans, the opportunity to start a colony in the GBZ and join us in the fight if I thought they'd go for it.

Edit: Besides, the Federation already has a D7 equivalent (in mass-producibility not stats) in the Miranda-A.

Task: SHIP

[][SHIP] Adopt the new Frigate/Cruiser/Capital system
No. of Votes: 34

[][SHIP] Keep to the existing Escort/Cruiser/Explorer system
No. of Votes: 21

Total No. of Voters: 59

Disappointment.jpg
 
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Hence, secondary. The difference between running around in unknown space and running around poking things in border zone.
Poking things in border zones can still result in poking an archaeology site that turns out to have active Surface-to-orbit weapons. Like, these aren't bad ships, but when it comes to being quick and durable, they come up a bit short.
 
It's actually kind of hard to believe the Romulans sailed out for a Non-Aggression Pact on their own accord. I guess this is maybe the result of us managing to de-escalate to a limited war with the Cardies instead of kicking off Quadrant War 3. They aren't 100% certain that we wouldn't stick our nose in their business, but they're certain enough that they feel that negotiations would favor them.




e: Now that Oneiros is here and the argument is over, I'll just say I'm amazed that we managed to have a literal semantics argument over a literal semantics vote for like a good 5 or 6 pages.
 
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e: Now that Oneiros is here and the argument is over, I'll just say I'm amazed that we managed to have a literal semantics argument over a literal semantics vote for like a good 5 or 6 pages.

You act as if this doesn't happen all the time on SB/SV.

Terrible morning all!

What in the hell has been going on here o_O?

A Cat-5 shitstorm, that's what.

PS. Isn't it 9:50 PM?

PSS. You're Avatar is perfect for this situation.
 
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I must say, after the incredible stress we were under early in the year, it felt like the rest of 2313 just flew by. Now that Ainsworth is not pushing quite so hard in the GBZ, I'm even hopeful we might get our reinforcements to her before any more major fighting.

It's actually kind of hard to believe the Romulans sailed out for a Non-Aggression Pact on their own accord. I guess this is maybe the result of us managing to de-escalate to a limited war with the Cardies instead of kicking off Quadrant War 3. They aren't 100% certain that we wouldn't stick our nose in their business, but they're certain enough that they feel that negotiations would favor them.

This really is a huge win for the Federation, though. The Romulans actually have to make promises of their own for this non-aggression pact. Their original plan was to just count on us being busy with the Cardassians.
 
Is using the Kaldun as an Explorer going badly for the Cardassians? I mean sure they can't take on a Excelsior (especially the Enterprise) one on one, but they are finding resources, intimidating future tributaries, assisting potential affiliates, and poking negative space wedgies. IS there any indication that they're failing those events at unprecedented rates?

I'm not saying we should follow that doctrine, but whose to say that when we eventually get the tech to build Intrepids, that we don't send them on range range exploration missions, like to the Gamma Quadrant or whatever? They're capable, but are probably faster and use less fuel, are better hiding and being unobtrusive , and possibly most importantly have smaller crews, so fewer people are away from their families for 10 plus years.
 
Meh. All a non-aggression pact with the Romulans will do is get us completely out of the way so that them and the Klingons can have at it.
 
Meh. All a non-aggression pact with the Romulans will do is get us completely out of the way so that them and the Klingons can have at it.

Yeah, but like, it stays around after they're finished having at it. In the longest term, having a non-aggression pact with both of the principal empires on our flank sets the stage for further cooperation, and the opening of formal diplomatic relations with the Romulans, relaxing of the neutral zone, start of trade, or exchange of ambassadors should be all be things that could be part of or follow from the upcoming agreement.

I would rather they didn't war, but I want to be pulled into their war even less.
 
Is using the Kaldun as an Explorer going badly for the Cardassians? I mean sure they can't take on a Excelsior (especially the Enterprise) one on one, but they are finding resources, intimidating future tributaries, assisting potential affiliates, and poking negative space wedgies. IS there any indication that they're failing those events at unprecedented rates?

There actually is evidence! See this post.

Supplementary Report: Cardassia, Konen, Dylaaria, and Goshawnar

Our understanding is that there is both a certain amount of, if not tribute than certainly favourable trade terms, flowing towards Cardassia. However, the biggest problem is that with the accumulation of three significant client states, the Cardassians are experiencing the same bonus that we are. With multiple types of resources produced by each group, trade is allowing them to remove the weakest links in their supply chains, improving their ability to produce ships even if they haven't found new resource deposits.

Se bolded bit indicating that they haven't been having a great time with finding new resource deposits.
 
Meh. All a non-aggression pact with the Romulans will do is get us completely out of the way so that them and the Klingons can have at it.
Very true. On the other hand, the alternative is probably that the Romulans think we're signalling that we'd back the Klingons in the event of a war, and take the refusal to make a historic step towards Federation-Romulan positive relations even worse than they already would. The war would still likely go ahead, since it would send the Klingons the same signal. So instead of there being a war between two powers that we're uninvolved in, now there's a war where one of the powers thinks that we're an enemy and will presumably treat us as such, and the other side will prosecute more strongly, believing their position to be much stronger than it really is.

Besides, it's FDS's department, not ours.
 
There actually is evidence! See this post.



Se bolded bit indicating that they haven't been having a great time with finding new resource deposits.

In addition, after Whispers and Ghosts, we commented on how thinly explored it seemed Cardassian space was.

That said, they have science vessels, so they should be okay?


What in the hell has been going on here o_O?

Semantics vote sets off semantics argument because people have feelings about words.
 
I'd rather have worse relations with the Romulans if it means better relations with the Klingons. I don't really like either of them, but the Klingons at least give some lip service to honor and reciprocity. The Romulans on the other hand, have absolutely no redeeming qualities :p
 
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Yeah part of the problem in cozying up to the Romulans is conflict with the Klingons is perhaps more likely without action on their end too. We are no longer likely to follow the canon path to the alliance with the Klingons, so it's something of a worry, plus I feel the Klingon fleet is a greater threat than the Romulan one given that hordes of small ships have advantages in fights.
 
I'd rather have worse relations with the romans if it means better relations with the Klingons. I don't really like either of them, but the Klingons at least give some lip service to honor and reciprocity. The Romulans on the other hand, have absolutely no redeeming qualities :p

I feel the opposite. The Romulans are the more stable option and, as seen in TNG/DS9, it only takes a few lunatics (or Changelings) in power to plunge the Klingon Empire into a Game of Thrones style civil war or to withdraw from the Khitomer Accords and start a border war with the Federation.
 
Yeah, but like, it stays around after they're finished having at it. In the longest term, having a non-aggression pact with both of the principal empires on our flank sets the stage for further cooperation, and the opening of formal diplomatic relations with the Romulans, relaxing of the neutral zone, start of trade, or exchange of ambassadors should be all be things that could be part of or follow from the upcoming agreement.

I would rather they didn't war, but I want to be pulled into their war even less.

Very true. On the other hand, the alternative is probably that the Romulans think we're signalling that we'd back the Klingons in the event of a war, and take the refusal to make a historic step towards Federation-Romulan positive relations even worse than they already would. The war would still likely go ahead, since it would send the Klingons the same signal. So instead of there being a war between two powers that we're uninvolved in, now there's a war where one of the powers thinks that we're an enemy and will presumably treat us as such, and the other side will prosecute more strongly, believing their position to be much stronger than it really is.

Besides, it's FDS's department, not ours.

The longer they waited to do so, the better for us. After all, one of the many, many reasons they intend to have this conflict is so they can absorb the other one in order to have enough strength to take on us. Which is why I'm unenthusiastic about this.

They must not be looking hard enough, we've been practically tripping over them.

They only have a single design with a science rating of 5, with everything else having 3 or less.
 
I feel the opposite. The Romulans are the more stable option and, as seen in TNG/DS9, it only takes a few lunatics (or Changelings) in power to plunge the Klingon Empire into a Game of Thrones style civil war or to withdraw from the Khitomer Accords and start a border war with the Federation.
But when those lunatics aren't in power, the Klingon Empire actually goes to bat for the Federation. It would take incredibly contrived circumstances (and tons of deception, which I doubt this thread would go for) to get the Romulans to do the same.
 
[sighs]

I'm calling them 'explorers' no matter what anyone says. I liked that name, and I never saw anyone confused or bothered by it until now.

We would have called them explorer-weight hospital ships to distinguish from our previous Ranger-based hospital ships because we wouldn't have built enough of the new ones to retire the old ones and yes, that actually does have a risk to it.
So we'd call them "big new hospital ships" or "the new hospital ships" or "hospital Excelsiors" or some made-up class name. And that's in the hypothetical case of lots of voter support for Excelsior-sized hospital ships... which as I recall only got limited support.

The point is, none of this is hard. No one has suffered ambiguity or confusion as a result of people calling big ships 'explorers' and not some generic term like 'capital ships.'

And you're accusing people of arguing in bad faith willy-nilly now.
The only people I'm accusing of arguing in bad faith are the ones who literally made up a nomenclature scheme so that they could come up with a silly designation for the existing Excelsior class, and then claim that everyone 'has to' use it. When in reality, literally no one uses it.

I'm really not sure that's true. We have inertial dampners/artificial gravity and gravity nullification and the like which remove most of the obvious sources of stress on the spaceframe, regular maintenance to fix those parts of the external hull or internal fittings that are exposed to sources of damage, and navigational deflectors that protect against radiation altering the structure of the materials over time. The only real bar on our ships soldiering on to a century or more of age is an inability of the hull's available space limitations to support a useful mission.
I don't think we can assume that our force field technology (used in the generic sense to include SIF, inertial damping, artificial gravity, deflectors, etc.) lets us assume that ships don't experience structural wear and tear during active service.

Certainly, nothing from canon gives us a reason to assume that ships can be operated continuously for long periods without structural wear and tear.

It's actually kind of hard to believe the Romulans sailed out for a Non-Aggression Pact on their own accord. I guess this is maybe the result of us managing to de-escalate to a limited war with the Cardies instead of kicking off Quadrant War 3. They aren't 100% certain that we wouldn't stick our nose in their business, but they're certain enough that they feel that negotiations would favor them.
This may be the Romulans trying to set up their equivalent of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact: the treaty they sign to secure their flank against us right before the war with the Klingons. Which would actually make a great deal of strategic sense for them.

Terrible morning all!

What in the hell has been going on here o_O?
You bundled the "escorts renamed frigates" vote with an "explorers renamed capital ships" vote. The former seemed relatively noncontroversial even if some people opposed it. But the latter option was controversial enough to spark a very heated argument that wound up dragging in all sorts of miscellaneous issues related to explorer design and construction.

A Cat-5 shitstorm, that's what.

PS. Isn't it 9:50 PM?

PSS. You're Avatar is perfect for this situation.
OneirosTheWriter comes from the land down under. As an Australian, his early morning is an American's evening, and vice versa. It imposes interesting dynamics on the quest and post timing thanks to his ludicrous godlike update frequency.

They must not be looking hard enough, we've been practically tripping over them.
We have Explorer Corps ships with science stats of like eight looking for them. Doing literally nothing but looking for resources and saying "hi there!" to anyone who looks interesting. Plus we have people like "Rock Whisperer" Straak, "reroll all your mapping failures" Eaton, and "literally cannot fail a sensor check to save his life" Zaardmani on those explorers.

They have Jalduns and such with science stats of like... three looking for them, with Glinn Whozit operating the sensors. And a handful of science vessels. But they've got such a fixation on building big nasty cruisers and heavily gunned escorts that it's costing them a lot of resources, and they don't build very many of the science vessels.

As a result of this combination of factors... we find a LOT more resources than they do, it would seem.
 
The longer they waited to do so, the better for us. After all, one of the many, many reasons they intend to have this conflict is so they can absorb the other one in order to have enough strength to take on us. Which is why I'm unenthusiastic about this.

So basically the worst possible outcome for us is that the war ends with the Romulans as the Soviets after WWII. Their population is devastated and their infrastructure ravaged, but in order to win the war they've developed a huge army armada of ships and now hold sway over the entire former Klingon Empire.
 
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