To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)

[Deathbybunnies]

The trouble is, they're neighbors. So by the standards the Ked Peddah are using it's all "near Ked Paddah space".

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That's currently true, but we could try and convince them that a Mentat-less "border zone" would be an acceptable compromise? Even a supernova only reaches so far.

The fact that we still haven't gotten a single word of anything that sounds like primary-source, first-hand information on exactly why the Ked Paddah issued the ultimatum worries me.

To me, it sounds a lot like the way it would sound if the Licori are in the process of fast-talking the FDS into pulling the Federation in on their side of the war, and the FDS is playing along.

[I'm not ruling out that the Licori may be just as innocent as they present themselves, but I'm also not ruling that in]

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That's a pretty good point. We could try pushing for opening a dialogue with both races?

Alternatively, we could ask that all Mentat experiments be vetted internally, rather than just letting them try to blow up stars?

 

[Briefvoice]

I would have thought Politics covered stuff for Federation members anyways, so it's not like I can really be "I told you so." A valuable learning lesson. I guess politics is like, selling stuff to the council or avoiding PP loss?

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Consider that a commander with Low Politics might have us losing political will every time a ship gets damaged in one of these battles.

 

[Erandil]

this is an excellent question, that lots of sci fi writers should think long and hard .

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The sheer size of an galaxy spanning "empire" and the difficulties this causes for galactic wafare (especially in regards to larger entities) can relatively easily be used as a justification for a authoritorian style regime. There is actially quite cool argument for that somewhere on the web but I can'think remember where.

I was always of the opinion that an Explorer and her captain should stay together until death parts them, but that won't fly here so I'm hoping for 10-15 years as norm.

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And I and many others finds anything above 5 excessive... and certainly will oppose three tours.

 

[random_npc]

The sheer size of an galaxy spanning "empire" and the difficulties this causes for galactic wafare (especially in regards to larger entities) can relatively easily be used as a justification for a authoritorian style regime. There is actially quite cool argument for that somewhere on the web but I can'think remember where.

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yeah, but there is a reason birth based succession is terrible. It results in lots of people with a decent claim to the throne, and no way to advance but to claim it, and life long terms of service encourages assassination, especially when long lifespans mean a monarch could live for centuries. authoritarian sure, but there is a reason monarchies are not around anymore.

 

[Erandil]

"Attempted to blow up a star. Attempted! What, do they give scientific prizes for 'attempted physics' now?" -Licori Mentat



You keep saying that. Do you not consider an attempt to deliberately destroy a star for purposes of scientific experimentation to be cause enough?

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Not really, it is not like stars are that rare/valuable though I admit that in ST their destruction offen seems to lead to very strange/widereaching space "weather".

 

[Simon_Jester]

Two is a good minimum for competent captains.

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Two is a good maximum for really excellent and amazing captains who rock.

While ordinarily that would be a pretty good reward, Saavik is in the last year of her 5YM, with only one more Event next quarter to actually use that bonus. Ah well.

(And no, thread at large, let's not turn this into another excuse to keep giving captains two 5YM in a row.)

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We have some really strong Explorer Corps captain candidates at the moment. Saavik's bonuses are good enough to make her genuinely tempting, but she's far from the only one we might want to call on, so pushing her has an opportunity cost. Plus, we can certainly use more talented commodores to shoot at troubles, and Saavik qualifies as 'probably talented.'

Well, the price we paid for a high aggression I guess. (I checked, and our other two choices had Medium diplomacy.) At least they will be there and doing some good. And it looks like the Avandar made TF1 look scary enough that the Cardassians retreated without a fight. Winning without a battle... the best kind of winning!

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Uuuunless the enemy sizes up your force and just decides to come back next quarter with more muscle.

I was always of the opinion that an Explorer and her captain should stay together until death parts them, but that won't fly here so I'm hoping for 10-15 years as norm.

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If we kept explorers and their captains together forever, Uhura would still be captain of the Courageous. We wouldn't have Eaton or McAdams, they'd be no-account officers from the regular fleet. We wouldn't have T'Lorel as a commodore or Straak as a captain. Or if we did, it'd be at the expense of other officers we'd come to love, like Thuir and and Saavik.

Worst of all, we'd never have gotten the adventures of Captain Nash, we'd have gotten the adventures of Captain Harriman instead.

Personally I favor sticking to five years with an extension to ten in really unusual circumstances.

"Attempted to blow up a star. Attempted! What, do they give scientific prizes for 'attempted physics' now?" -Licori Mentat

You keep saying that. Do you not consider an attempt to deliberately destroy a star for purposes of scientific experimentation to be cause enough?

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Honestly yes, yes I do, that's kind of my point...

See, while I consider "the Licori nearly blew up a star near Ked Paddah space" to be good grounds for the Ked Paddah to issue an ultimatum, the Federation Diplomatic Service apparently does not. And has not even mentioned it in their reports. This suggests one of the following:

1) They are being fast-talked by the Licori.
2) They are somehow entirely ignorant of the 'almost had a Hobus incident' event that led the Ked Paddah to issue the ultimatum in the first place. Which means they really are not doing anything like due diligence in getting the Ked Paddah side of the story.
3) They are somehow being mind-controlled by the Licori, a troubling prospect we can't rule out; I can think of ways to do it that would be very much in keeping with the Dune flavor of the Licori state.

Basically, even if we conclude the Licori are not at fault, then unless the information we already had before the FDS went to Morshedd is entirely wrong... The diplomatic reports we're getting suggest that something may be going badly wrong with our diplomatic operations in their space. It's almost certainly not the fault of the FDS as a whole, but it's something we may need to address.

Not really, it is not like stars are that rare/valuable though I admit that in ST their destruction offen seems to lead to very strange/widereaching space "weather".

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Exploding stars can create problematic radiation and the like even in real life physics; under Star Trek physics where there are a lot of FTL exotic phenomena that can propagate from an exploding star it's worse.

Furthermore, a starbreaking technology is an extremely provocative device when viewed as a weapon, much like the Genesis Device is/was.

 

[ClawClawBite]

While I expect I will support Saavik if she wants another 5 year (and want her at Starfleet Academy teaching so she can be the one who does Kabashi Maru debriefs if she does not), getting to +1P means she is likely to be high diplomacy when she transitions to the leadership style stats (and likely high nerve too). Still a nice bonus there.

 

[Briefvoice]

See, while I consider "the Licori nearly blew up a star near Ked Paddah space" to be good grounds for the Ked Paddah to issue an ultimatum, the Federation Diplomatic Service apparently does not. And has not even mentioned it in their reports. This suggests one of the following:

1) They are being fast-talked by the Licori.
2) They are somehow entirely ignorant of the 'almost had a Hobus incident' event that led the Ked Paddah to issue the ultimatum in the first place. Which means they really are not doing anything like due diligence in getting the Ked Paddah side of the story.
3) They are somehow being mind-controlled by the Licori, a troubling prospect we can't rule out; I can think of ways to do it that would be very much in keeping with the Dune flavor of the Licori state.

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4) It's not mentioned because these snippets are far briefer than they would "really" be and @OneirosTheWriter doesn't bother repeating information we already have.

You and I are very much reading these diplomatic updates differently. I do not see anything by the FDS indicating they consider the ultimatum unjustified.

 

[Katsuragi]

Are we on 3 month turns until the boarder war burns out?

 

[NullVoid]

I borrowed a procedure I knew had been employed to great effect by Commodore T'Lorel.

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I thought for sure she was going to use the T'Lorel Maneuver and fix the problem by having someone else become the new station chief...

 

[Iron Wolf]

Consider that a commander with Low Politics might have us losing political will every time a ship gets damaged in one of these battles.

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On the whole I'm okay with AInsworth so far. With the Sydraxians and Cardassians pinning us in so close an agressive approach right from the start probably is an optimal choice, assuming she doesn't lose us the entire GBTF blowing up Deva IX.

Depending on how many losses we take there, or maybe just in general, it might be worthwhile to replace her with someone with higher diplomacy afterwards. That way they can consolidate with the member world fleets and make more gradual gains from a superior position.

 

[Erandil]

yeah, but there is a reason birth based succession is terrible. It results in lots of people with a decent claim to the throne, and no way to advance but to claim it, and life long terms of service encourages assassination, especially when long lifespans mean a monarch could live for centuries. authoritarian sure, but there is a reason monarchies are not around anymore.

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I tend to agree with you though I still feel obliged to point put that authoritorian regimes/dicactors tend to try to establish monarchy like sucession in many cases.

(There also other, mostly narrative related, reasons why authors tend to go with monarchies)

 

[Nervos Belli]

With regards to Saavik let's remember that the S'Harien was her first command almost immediately after she made captain. She's only been at captain rank for 5-6 years. Even if we decide not to give her another 5YM, I'm not sure she's ready to be promoted to Commodore. She might take a shore billet for a few years.

 

[random_npc]

One of the Mentats blew up a star.

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wait, what? when did we learn that?

 

[pbluekan]

(And no, thread at large, let's not turn this into another excuse to keep giving captains two 5YM in a row.)

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Two is a good minimum for competent captains.

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Why shouldn't we do two 5ym for the truly good captains. The payoff is certainly worth it. I certainly understand pulling them after ten years, but pulling them after five feels like neutering the basic uses of the explorer corps.

They spend extra time and resources to train these people into the best field officers we have, and yet we punt them to a desk the first chance we get, no matter their performance.

 

[Voikirium]

this is an excellent question, that lots of sci fi writers should think long and hard about.

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It's almost like technological development and social progress aren't always particularly linked, or something...

 

[Simon_Jester]

While I expect I will support Saavik if she wants another 5 year (and want her at Starfleet Academy teaching so she can be the one who does Kabashi Maru debriefs if she does not), getting to +1P means she is likely to be high diplomacy when she transitions to the leadership style stats (and likely high nerve too). Still a nice bonus there.

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If Saavik doesn't have high Nerve after everything that's happened on her five year mission, nobody should have high Nerve.

Except possibly Michel Thuir.

I just want to announce that while I approve of Saavik very much, I promised Briefvoice that I would vote T'Rinta in all subsequent captain votes until such time as she gets an Explorer Corps captaincy; this probably means I will not get to vote for Saavik 2314.

4) It's not mentioned because these snippets are far briefer than they would "really" be and @OneirosTheWriter doesn't bother repeating information we already have.

You and I are very much reading these diplomatic updates differently. I do not see anything by the FDS indicating they consider the ultimatum unjustified.

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The wording of Ambassador Bairn's 2313Q2 report is what I'd expect from someone trying to do a fast-talk on the Licori's behalf. We already knew that Licori experiments nearly blew up a star (possibly among other things), and that the Ked Paddah attacked to put a stop to such things.

Now, the Licori know we know that, but have every reason to portray their case as sympathetically as possible. They'd be fools not to. And given that this is what they're trying to accomplish, the Licori would presumably not dispute that 'certain rogue experimenters' caused the Ked Paddah to fear them. We already know that, so they can't just pretend they were attacked totally without provocation. They can, however, try to gloss over just how dangerous and threatening those experiments were, and emphasize how the Ked Paddah attack was totally an act of aggression (while their earlier experiments that directly or indirectly threatened Ked Paddah space weren't).

I guess what I really want to do is make sure that everyone bears in mind that while we have ambassadorial reports from the Licori capital, we do NOT have similar reports from the Ked Paddah capital. There is NO evidence that our team has been in significant direct contact with the Ked Paddah government. And even with the best investigative will in the world, it is very unlikely that they can get the entire 'true story' from the capital of one of the belligerent powers, especially in an autocratic society like that of the Licori.

So we're getting relevant details from our woman in Morshadd, and they're things we didn't already know because you're right, Oneiros doesn't bother repeating what we already know. But there may be other relevant details we should have to make a fair decision and don't have, simply because the Licori are one side in an intense conflict and are likely to present their side as favorably as possible.

We should at least make allowances for possibilities that if we'd instead sent our ambassador to the Ked Paddah capital, we'd be learning things much less favorable to the Licori. And honestly, I think we need to make sure we have ambassadors do investigations on both sides before we even think about intervening in the war, except possibly to negotiate some kind of 'cease fire in place.'

 

[Briefvoice]

Why shouldn't we do two 5ym for the truly good captains. The payoff is certainly worth it. I certainly understand pulling them after ten years, but pulling them after five feels like neutering the basic uses of the explorer corps.

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Okay, which of our current 5YM captains are "truly good captains" and which are not? I'm interested in your take.

If they're all good captains, then you're basically suggesting a no questions asked policy of two 5YM in a row of the officer in question puts their hand up for it, right?

They spend extra time and resources to train these people into the best field officers we have, and yet we punt them to a desk the first chance we get, no matter their performance.

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If they only do one 5YM each, then we get twice as many officers who have 5YM command experience.

The wording of Ambassador Bairn's 2313Q2 report is what I'd expect from someone trying to do a fast-talk on the Licori's behalf. We already knew that Licori experiments nearly blew up a star (possibly among other things), and that the Ked Paddah attacked to put a stop to such things.

Now, the Licori know we know that, but have every reason to portray their case as sympathetically as possible. They'd be fools not to. And given that this is what they're trying to accomplish, the Licori would presumably not dispute that 'certain rogue experimenters' caused the Ked Paddah to fear them. We already know that, so they can't just pretend they were attacked totally without provocation. They can, however, try to gloss over just how dangerous and threatening those experiments were, and emphasize how the Ked Paddah attack was totally an act of aggression (while their earlier experiments that directly or indirectly threatened Ked Paddah space weren't).

I guess what I really want to do is make sure that everyone bears in mind that while we have ambassadorial reports from the Licori capital, we do NOT have similar reports from the Ked Paddah capital. There is NO evidence that our team has been in significant direct contact with the Ked Paddah government. And even with the best investigative will in the world, it is very unlikely that they can get the entire 'true story' from the capital of one of the belligerent powers, especially in an autocratic society like that of the Licori.

So we're getting relevant details from our woman in Morshadd, and they're things we didn't already know because you're right, Oneiros doesn't bother repeating what we already know. But there may be other relevant details we should have to make a fair decision and don't have, simply because the Licori are one side in an intense conflict and are likely to present their side as favorably as possible.

We should at least make allowances for possibilities that if we'd instead sent our ambassador to the Ked Paddah capital, we'd be learning things much less favorable to the Licori. And honestly, I think we need to make sure we have ambassadors do investigations on both sides before we even think about intervening in the war, except possibly to negotiate some kind of 'cease fire in place.'

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You know when some people say you go overboard in trying to make your point? If you had typed "I agree Briefvoice, we're reading these updates differently" then I would get exactly the same meaning as I did from all that text I just quoted.

 

[Iron Wolf]

If Saavik doesn't have high Nerve after everything that's happened on her five year mission, nobody should have high Nerve.

Except possibly Michel Thuir.

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Speaking of, how close is he to being a Rear Admiral?

Because with high Politics, Medium Diplomacy, and high Aggression and no need to worry about the Sydraxians getting too mad [b/c destroying Deva IX is pretty provocative], he's the perfect replacement for Ainsworth. @Briefvoice we can finally shove him into the action!

 

[random_npc]

It's almost like technological development and social progress aren't always particularly linked, or something...

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yeah, but technological delvopment can make certain social models nonviable. There is a reason all the monarchies in Europe lost power around the same time.

 

[pbluekan]

To play Devil's Advocate for a moment, ships could be shuffled to adjacent sectors; no ship has to move across the UFP, and ships at the other end get freed up for action.

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This would still take the same amount of time. Look at it this way, we can't let a ship leave a command until its replacement arrives, or close enough to not matter. So, sure, a ship or two could be sent from the GBZ, but the ships they take over for in some sector command can't leave till they arrive and so forth on down to wherever we draw ships to send to the Licori and Ked Peddah. Still takes six months ish, and is infinitely more annoyingly complicated.

If we could or should draw down anywhere it would be the Vulcan or Tellar sectors.

 

[Briefvoice]

Speaking of, how close is he to being a Rear Admiral?

Because with high Politics, Medium Diplomacy, and high Aggression and no need to worry about the Sydraxians getting too mad [b/c destroying Deva IX is pretty provocative], he's the perfect replacement for Ainsworth. @Briefvoice we can finally shove him into the action!

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Hmmmm.

[ ][FLEET] Rear Admiral Rachel Ainsworth
Current Posting: Commander, Starbase 7 [Ferasa]
Rule-Abiding: Medium
Aggression: High
Nerve: Medium
Diplomacy: Low
Politics: Medium

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[ ][TF2] Commodore Michel Thuir
Current Posting: Operations Officer, Starfleet Tactical Field Command
Rule-Abiding: Medium
Aggression: High
Nerve: Medium
Diplomacy: Medium
Politics: High

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Thuir is basically just like Ainsworth, except with better Diplomacy and Politics.

 

[Simon_Jester]

With regards to Saavik let's remember that the S'Harien was her first command almost immediately after she made captain. She's only been at captain rank for 5-6 years. Even if we decide not to give her another 5YM, I'm not sure she's ready to be promoted to Commodore. She might take a shore billet for a few years.

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That is actually an extremely good point. In the normal course of events Saavik would not be promoted unless she was very much being fast-tracked.

I guess my main thing is that if Spock, who's possibly the smartest guy in the Federation, thinks it's worth cultivating her career... I would like to do the same myself.

And unlike just about every other canon character we have, she's still fairly young. Saavik was a fresh Academy graduate in 2284 or so; when the Biophage hit she was only about forty, and she's about fifty now. Contrast with T'Lorel, who had an explorer captaincy less than a decade before her... but is only three years younger than Spock.

On the whole I'm okay with AInsworth so far. With the Sydraxians and Cardassians pinning us in so close an agressive approach right from the start probably is an optimal choice, assuming she doesn't lose us the entire GBTF blowing up Deva IX.

Depending on how many losses we take there, or maybe just in general, it might be worthwhile to replace her with someone with higher diplomacy afterwards. That way they can consolidate with the member world fleets and make more gradual gains from a superior position.

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I can see the logic, although I'd like us to make sure the opposition is suitably hammered down first, if possible. Plus, I don't want it to seem like we're sacking Ainsworth for doing exactly what we wanted, namely launching strong military pushes to knock the enemy off balance. That might well bury her career, and it would be a very ungrateful act on our part.

Why shouldn't we do two 5ym for the truly good captains. The payoff is certainly worth it. I certainly understand pulling them after ten years, but pulling them after five feels like neutering the basic uses of the explorer corps.

They spend extra time and resources to train these people into the best field officers we have, and yet we punt them to a desk the first chance we get, no matter their performance.

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Firstly, the desks we punt them to are very important desks. Real militaries need great people at certain desks as much or more than they need great people on their ships. Uhura, T'Lorel, and Eaton are all former Explorer Corps captains and I am very, very glad to have them commanding the 'desks' that are fighting the Orion Syndicate. Having Nash come in for a cameo was a very welcome development too.

Another point is that we've got a constant stream of great bonuses coming up for us. If we had each Explorer Corps captaincy last for ten years, we'd have to actively pass up a LOT of promising talented individuals who would do just as great a job as the long-service captains we were keeping in the Corps.

You know when some people say you go overboard in trying to make your point? If you had typed "I agree Briefvoice, we're reading these updates differently" then I would get exactly the same meaning as I did from all that text I just quoted.

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I understand.

At the same time, I think it's important to explain and clarify exactly how I disagree, and why.

 

[Iron Wolf]

Thuir is basically just like Ainsworth, except with better Diplomacy and Politics.

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Thuir: Like Ainsworth But BetterTM​

I can see the logic, although I'd like us to make sure the opposition is suitably hammered down first, if possible. Plus, I don't want it to seem like we're sacking Ainsworth for doing exactly what we wanted, namely launching strong military pushes to knock the enemy off balance. That might well bury her career, and it would be a very ungrateful act on our part.

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Obviously we'd have to nail down the timing to not seem shitty, and/or promote her to somwhere else. Also, we're not sure we can do it with Thiur. Damn it, if only we had more control over personnel!

I understand.

At the same time, I think it's important to explain and clarify exactly how I disagree, and why.

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You need to achieve a level of lazy/chill-ness that makes writing out huge explainers feel like too much effort.

 

[Simon_Jester]

@Iron Wolf :

The problem is that I am already at a state of High Chill (as the Risans would put it) most of the time, and I still write huge explainers.

Because writing huge explainers is how I relax.

"...But doctor, I am Pagliacci..."

_______________________

More generally, I would really, really rather keep Thuir away from the Sydraxians.

We want them to feel like we're defeating them and that they should therefore give up and make peace.

We do not want them to feel like we're defeating them because we have evil heretic defilers of temples in charge, and therefore decide to redouble their efforts.

I would much prefer to put Thuir in a position of high responsibility and importance elsewhere in our space. For example, with Uhura being promoted to the head of Operations as I recall, we're going to need a new leader for the Anti-Syndicate Task Force. Promoting T'Lorel or Eaton into that role sounds appealing (first fleshed-out OC to make rear admiral YAAAY), and both of them have nearly ten years' seniority in grade.

But then who do we replace them with? If (for instance) Eaton is running the campaign, who commands Anti-Syndicate Task Force 1 now? The obvious answer: Michel Thuir, who is highly talented and ideally suited to any job we could give him in a Cardassian-free zone.