So it's like explaining color to someone who never had sight?
It's like explaining democracy to someone from 250 years ago. Around the time of the American Revolution not everyone was saying "oh, yeah, that makes sense, why didn't we think of that". There was plenty of "Nope. Not gonna work. Peasants don't work that way. Y'all are gonna fail any moment now. Aaaany moment now." The Romulans, at least, have been putting up with us for long enough that they know we're sticking around, but there's still probably a few Cardassians who've had stopwatches running since First Contact so they can see exactly how much time it takes for us to collapse into anarchy.
 
Looking at the Romulan Republic as per STO... the Romulan Kuznetsova is about as prophetic as the Earthling one is about the alien shapeshifters from the Gamma Quadrant.

The thing about the STO Romulan Republic is that it wasn't really a bottom up thing. It was that the legitimacy of the old order and most of the old establishment just died in one swift blow.

The Romulan Republic is still sorta the Rump state of Romulan space. Tal Shiar emergency government and Sela's loyalists still exsist.

The old ways were never discredited. The STO Romulan Republic pretty much exsists entirely at the suffered certain of the Klingons and The Federation balancing the Republic between them.

The Republic is by all logic weak partner in the new arraignment. The plot and narrative after the initial missions the Romulans get mostly seems to have forgotten this though based off of "Player Faction, therefore must be powerful"

The Republic should be going "We would really like to help but we'really trapped in a mosaic of civil war and we've only recently managed to get the upper hand.
 
It's like explaining democracy to someone from 250 years ago. Around the time of the American Revolution not everyone was saying "oh, yeah, that makes sense, why didn't we think of that". There was plenty of "Nope. Not gonna work. Peasants don't work that way. Y'all are gonna fail any moment now. Aaaany moment now."
It's arguably worse than that. There were successful examples of constitutional monarchy, both recent and ancient, in Europe at the time, and even of actual republics. The US wasn't a unique and unprecedented experiment, its governmental structure was a logical outgrowth of existing political theory and historical precedents for "how do you run a country with no king?"

Whereas the Romulans and Cardassians don't even have a reference frame for something as different as the Federation.

The thing about the STO Romulan Republic is that it wasn't really a bottom up thing. It was that the legitimacy of the old order and most of the old establishment just died in one swift blow.
Yeah, but what I'm getting at is that fifty years earlier in the timeline, if something similar had happened, the Romulan Republic wouldn't even have been a thing- there wouldn't have been enough support for it or something like it.

So the very acknowledgment that the legitimacy of the old order had died in a fireball and could be replaced by this tends to underline the point that any 2300-era Romulans making lunchy predictions about democratic values contaminating Romulan memespace were right.

The old ways were never discredited. The STO Romulan Republic pretty much exsists entirely at the suffered certain of the Klingons and The Federation balancing the Republic between them.

The Republic is by all logic weak partner in the new arraignment. The plot and narrative after the initial missions the Romulans get mostly seems to have forgotten this though based off of "Player Faction, therefore must be powerful"

The Republic should be going "We would really like to help but we'really trapped in a mosaic of civil war and we've only recently managed to get the upper hand.
Yeah, I honestly think that's a problem with Romulan participation in the endgame. It's the best in-story reason I can think of for why Romulan players get shunted into the Fed/Klingon campaigns. Because the independent Romulan Republic military itself consists of Tiaru Jarok's merry band and a miscellaneous ragtag and bobtail, not a full sized fleet on the scale of the KDF or Starfleet that can actually have a galaxy-wide presence and get involved in complicated affairs.
 
Last edited:
I always thought it weird how STO at times seems to treat the Romulan Republic as a strong power or major power.

So when the moratorium on Federation affiliates joining ends in late 2317, which affiliates will likely join the Federation not long after that?
 
I always thought it weird how STO at times seems to treat the Romulan Republic as a strong power or major power.
My headcanon is that the Federation and Klingon senior officials tend to bring the Republic in on their big meetings and deliberations as an excuse NOT to bring in the Romulan Star Empire, since that would entail an extremely awkward effort to figure out who's even in charge over there anymore.

Officially treating the Romulan Republic as "the Romulans" allows them to retain the traditional image of 'the Big Three' meeting to discuss Alpha Quadrant affairs, which would otherwise not be practical.

[EDIT: To be clear, this is obviously a bit goofy from a strategic standpoint, with the Republic being like a little girl dressing up in mommy's comically outsized clothes and pretending to be one of the adults. But it allows certain Appearances to be Maintained...]

Plus, it means that the conferences don't just break down into staring matches between the Federation and the Klingons, which would otherwise tend to prevent anything useful from getting done. Although really, if the Iconian gateways firing up hadn't taken place in the neighborhood of New Romulans, I imagine they'd have gotten frozen entirely out of the events of the mid/endgame (as in, everything from Season 8 on)
 
Last edited:
It's arguably worse than that. There were successful examples of constitutional monarchy, both recent and ancient, in Europe at the time, and even of actual republics. The US wasn't a unique and unprecedented experiment, its governmental structure was a logical outgrowth of existing political theory and historical precedents for "how do you run a country with no king?"

Whereas the Romulans and Cardassians don't even have a reference frame for something as different as the Federation.

Yeah, but what I'm getting at is that fifty years earlier in the timeline, if something similar had happened, the Romulan Republic wouldn't even have been a thing- there wouldn't have been enough support for it or something like it.

So the very acknowledgment that the legitimacy of the old order had died in a fireball and could be replaced by this tends to underline the point that any 2300-era Romulans making lunchy predictions about democratic values contaminating Romulan memespace were right.

If I had to peg the Romulan political consciousness somewhere in human history I'd probably go with early Parliamentary England during the first phase of the English Civil War.

-All power vested in a legislature made up of the Aristocracy and some elected oligarchs.

-Distrust of the executive and the desire to put it in a small legally defined box.

-Immense belief in a particular religion/xenophobic ideology with inevitable destiny on their side Puritanism on the one hand Romulan Honour (Mne'shae) on the other.

-Liberal democratic ideals are present in a few but laughed at by the rest. (The levelers don't even come around until the second war)

It's not perfect; but it's a good starting place.
 
The Federation phenomenon is worse than 'simply' democracy - look at the history of the members. Apiata, Amarkians, Vulcans and Risans being governed by the same body - and it's not a simple illusion, it works (biophage / Orion intervention / Klingons before Kithomer / Romulan war). And if that system/model/mind-worm conspiracy can work for those races, Cardassians and Romulans aren't immune, either.
 
@AKuz

Not that its probably all that relevant to their modern ideological landscape, but did the Vulcans have democracy before the Romulan Exodus?

I think they had a bit of everything like Humans. They just had a problem with constantly nuking themselves and a constant age of strife. Which is to say that Vulcan wasn't unified until the era where Surabaya got to work and the Romulans left.

Without Surak the Vulcans probably would have been stone age a couple centuries after that.

As for the Romulans they probably have a word for democracy from way back in their shared history with Vulcan. But it's as historical and odd to them as Athenian democracy was to an Early Modern monarchist.
 
Worse, in some ways. It sounds like the Romulans have been a political monoculture for many centuries- several generations at least, even given that 'centenarian' is possibly just Romulan for 'middle-aged.' In post-classical Europe, the political fragmentation was high enough that exotic forms of government (like merchant republics) existed somewhere most of the time.

For the Romulans, all competing social systems that don't work like the one they live under have been drained out of their reference pool a long time ago, and are known only through history and xenosociology texts.
 
Worse, in some ways. It sounds like the Romulans have been a political monoculture for many centuries- several generations at least, even given that 'centenarian' is possibly just Romulan for 'middle-aged.' In post-classical Europe, the political fragmentation was high enough that exotic forms of government (like merchant republics) existed somewhere most of the time.

For the Romulans, all competing social systems that don't work like the one they live under have been drained out of their reference pool a long time ago, and are known only through history and xenosociology texts.

Though thinking about it now... IIRC in the very early Romulus colony times they had a far more democratic version of what they have now under they watchful eye of the Romulan version of Surak. Then they had an Empress shortly afterwards (She's the reason the Senate floors are marble: so that blood from killed senators is easy to clean) who made them decide that rule by a single individual is a bad idea. Then they fairly quickly became the electoral oligarchy that we know and love after overthrowing her.
 
2313.Q2.M2 - Council Session
Council Chambers, Paris, Sol III, Sol Sector

You have a lot of work ahead of you today. Though by comparison to the last week, with the mayhem, and you have no other word for it, of attempting to form and generate support for new legislation and deal with the arrival of six new Councillors, this is actually rather peaceful.

You start off by working with your new friends from Rigellian space, the Mercantile faction. Rather an odd duck in the post-currency and post-scarcity halls of Earth, you have to say. Of course, some people just enjoy the cut and thrust of competitive business, much as you enjoy the politics around you. Therefore, you shouldn't judge, as long as they don't start doing it at other people's expense, like happened on this world a couple centuries ago. Or as is currently happening in Orion space.

They provide much needed insight into what makes the Orion hypercorps tick. And what can make them stop ticking. It's all Klingon Opera to you, though. It's not the sort of straight-forward, transparent budgeting as practiced in most of the Federation. Councillors Rangyad and Meiyama speak to you of junk bonds, derivative financial products, Alukk Market Indices, and stuff that makes you understand how an iron-age inhabitant would feel getting a lecture in advanced subspace field theory. The observers and delegates from the Orion Union government understand, though, and nod thoughtfully. Apparently they have a few ways to break the power of the hypercorps, and allow the Union government to start attacking the parent holding companies that hold the reins of power across the Union.

When you get the layman's summary, it provides a way to designate entire hypercorps as supporters of the Syndicate and embargo them in a way that can correctly navigate both Federation and Union laws. You didn't think this would be an issue, but apparently the ownership structure of those hypercorps is explicitly designed to defeat this kind of effort normally.

The other big part of the suggested legislation from the Rigellians is an aid package that will allow the Orion Union government to keep their economy afloat while they go about the business of destroying the putative anchors of their wealth.

---

Councillor for Rigel Rangyad has put forward legislation, co-sponsored by Councillor for Ollasa IV Arsharra N'Gir, to undercut the financial underpinning of the Syndicate and enable the Orion Union to persist in their efforts to defang their powerful corporations.

[No vote on this one - although you helped get the ball rolling by getting the right people talking, no one is going to come to Starfleet for analysis of economic pro's and cons]

[Gain +5 Resilience, much harder for Hypercorps to recruit mercenaries. Ability of Orion Union to pass upcoming Constitutional changes increased]

---

The following options are for modifying the Anti-Slavery Act of 2309. Options that are already in play are noted, with their costs and effects. These can be left in place, altered, or added to.

STRICTLY PLAN VOTING

Available Additional Influence Pts: 5

---

Originally suggested by Councillor for Betazed Jime Okaar, the use of the Caitian Frontier Police as replacement police units that have some combat capability has been highly successful. They have kept the minor colony worlds, potentially a source of tremendous unrest, from distracting the Union government from their efforts on the core worlds. It is now time to decide if they should be left as is, replaced, reinforced, or even if it is time to remove all ground forces.

Currently: Draw on the Caitian Frontier Police force. These people keep order on the Caitian border worlds and even saw some action against the Dawiar. Full-size phaser pistols and light armour for protection are carried standard. (1 Influence, +1 Militarisation, reduce Syndicate event rate, more resilient to casualties)
Additionally: The Amarkian Gendarmes have two significant formations working with the Aerocommandos, and are currently regrouping after the bloody assault on Celos. However, more Gendarmes can be made available for normal police work.
(May select multiple options)
[ ][COPS] Draw on Andorian Guard's Peacekeepers. Police first, combat is a much lower priority. Despite this, an Andorian is always dangerous in a scrap. (1 Influence, reduces Syndicate event rate, vulnerable to be disabled by casualties from Syndicate)
[ ][COPS] Draw on the Amarkian Gendarmes. Deploying with full scale phaser rifles and body armour, these Amarki can move smoothly between investigating a break-in to storming a bunker. (2 Influence, +2 Militarisation, reduce Syndicate event rate, far greater resilience to casualties)
[ ][COPS] Draw on Apiatan Comb Staves. Whole colonies who dedicate themselves to protection of the larger hives, who take on the bulk of dealing with rebellious colonies. They use shock batons, full pistols, and backup squads with heavy wepaons. (2 Influence, +2 Militarisation, reduce Syndicate event rate, strong resilience to casualties).
[ ][COPS] Draw on the Tellarite Bobbies. Tellarite Bobbies are used to keeping law on the argumentative Tellarite core worlds and the rough-and-tumble Tellarite mining colonies, they are not particularly heavily armed but sheer stubbornness makes them difficult targets for subversion. (1 Influence, reduces Syndicate event rate, more vulnerable to being disabled by casualties from Syndicate, resistant to infiltration)
[ ][COPS] Remove the Caitian Frontier Police (Regain 1 Influence from CFP)
[ ][COPS] No changes (may not be taken with any other COPS options).

Councillor Hamith of Delta Vega is very pleased with how the Rixx Scrutineers have been able to impact the fight against the Syndicate, but wonders if more can be done?
Currently: Rixx Scrutineers from Betazed could be called upon. It is impossible to pass a direct deception by one. (1 Influence, +3 Impact, apply penalty to Syndicate infiltration operations)
[ ][DETECTIVES] Vulcan Central Inspectorate could be called on. Capable of working through vast conspiracies and webs of deduction. (1 Influence, +3 Impact, apply penalty to Syndicate financial/shipbuilding operations)
[ ][DETECTIVES] Detectives from the Indorian Argyle Bench, the center of their serious crimes investigations group can come into play, their natural instinct for pattern matching and recognition could unknot conspiracies. (1 Influence, +2 Impact, bonus to tracking down perpetrators of attacks)
[ ][DETECTIVES] Remove the Rixx Scrutineers
[ ][DETECTIVES] No additional investigators

Councillor Xom bim Cherr of Sar Alpha's idea of seeding tachyon detectors through Orion Syndicate space has taken away the ability of the Syndicate space forces to properly impact the struggle.
Currently: Seed the most likely vectors. (1 Influence, +2 Impact)
[ ][DEVICES] Build in bulk, blanket Union Space. (1 Influence, +2 Impact)
[ ][DEVICES] Leave as is

Rear Admiral Scott Linderley of Starfleet Intelligence has some ideas for hampering Orion activities outside of Union space via signal interception.
Currently: Form Office 36 dedicated to Orion Syndicate Decryption under Signals Division. [1 Influence, -5pp/yr, +5 Impact]
[ ][SIG] Remove permission
[ ][SIG] Leave as is
[ ][SIG] Form Office 36 and funnel all subspace traffic routed through Orion Space to it. [1 Influence, -5pp/yr, +2 Impact, Gain +4 Resilience, +1 Militarisation]

A few of the member worlds are offering ships to aid the task force in Orion Union space, either bolstering numbers or freeing assets to head to the Gabriel Expanse. A few of the worlds are unwilling to contribute, either a little exposed to the Cardassians, or looking to get involved in the Gabriel Expanse soon.
[ ][SHIP] A Betazoid Contingent, with a Patrol Cruiser and two Escorts. (1 Influence, +4 Impact)
[ ][SHIP] A Rigellian Contingent, with a Turtleship and a Cutter (1 Influence, +4 Impact)
[ ][SHIP] A Tellarite Contingent, with a Constitution-B, a Centaur, and an Oberth (1 Influence, +4 Impact)
[ ][SHIP] None

The Councillor Ciimad, the Rigellian Councillor for Laudon, is putting forward the idea that researchers could develop new software for mapping the Syndicate. Amash Hagan, themselves one of the greatest brands in Rigel space as well as one of your SDB research teams, could dedicate one of their civilian supercomputing teams to the task.
[ ][COMP] Allow Amash Hagan to proceed. (2 Influence, -2 Syndicate Resilience, +4 Impact)
[ ][COMP] Decline

Councillor Hiand Benat, the new representative from Indoria, is suggesting that engineering teams to help fortify police stations and outposts could keep casualties down if the Syndicate manage to regroup.
[ ][ENG] Send out Indorian Engineers. (1 Influence, improve survival rolls)
[ ][ENG] Send out Tellarite Engineers (1 Influence, improve bomb resistance to bombs)
[ ][ENG] No thanks
 
Last edited:
Overwhelmed ...
priorities - finishing the operations asap in Orion space, or dedicate resources to stop the syndicates from disappearing and, later on, resurging?
 
Councillor Hamith of Delta Vega is very pleased with how the Rixx Scrutineers have been able to impact the fight against the Syndicate, but wonders if more can be done?
Currently: Rixx Scrutineers from Betazed could be called upon. It is impossible to pass a direct deception by one. (1 Influence, +3 Impact, apply penalty to Syndicate infiltration operations)
[ ][DETECTIVES] Vulcan Central Inspectorate could be called on. Capable of working through vast conspiracies and webs of deduction. (1 Influence, +3 Impact, apply penalty to Syndicate financial/shipbuilding operations)
[ ][DETECTIVES] Detectives from the Indorian Argyle Bench, the center of their serious crimes investigations group can come into play, their natural instinct for pattern matching and recognition could unknot conspiracies. (1 Influence, +2 Impact, bonus to tracking down perpetrators of attacks)
[ ][DETECTIVES] Remove the Rixx Scrutineers
[ ][DETECTIVES] No additional investigators

Do we still get the option to get BOTH the Rixx Scrutineers and Vulcan Central Inspectorate? IIRC, you allowed that at the cost of 3 2 influence.

Let me see if I can I find your quote...

Councillor Xom bim Cherr of Sar Alpha's idea of seeding tachyon detectors through Orion Syndicate space has taken away the ability of the Syndicate space forces to properly impact the struggle.
Currently: Seed the most likely vectors. (1 Influence, +2 Impact)
[ ][DEVICES] Build in bulk, blanket Union Space. (1 Influence, +2 Impact)
[ ][DEVICES] Leave as is

This is one of those things that I suspect has additional effect besides the impact. But there are more attractive options, and it looks like we're mostly past the pirating and other ship-based conflict phase of the Syndicate campaign.
 
Last edited:
[X] Plan Rigellians
[X][COPS] No changes (may not be taken with any other COPS options).
[X][DETECTIVES] Vulcan Central Inspectorate could be called on. Capable of working through vast conspiracies and webs of deduction. (1 Influence, +3 Impact, apply penalty to Syndicate financial/shipbuilding operations)
[X][DEVICES] Leave as is
[X][SIG] Leave as is
[X][SHIP] A Rigellian Contingent, with a Turtleship and a Cutter (1 Influence, +4 Impact)
[X][COMP] Allow Amash Hagan to proceed. (2 Influence, -2 Syndicate Resilience, +4 Impact)
[X][ENG] Send out Tellarite Engineers (1 Influence, improve bomb resistance to bombs)

With how much the syndicate is currently on the backfoot I feel they will resort to bombs more than firefights so resistance to that is good, more special forces not really needed either. We also need to track them down to their hiding holes, which the Vulcans and Amash Hagan help with. Finally the Rigellians have robust ships unlikely to be destroyed in Syndicate plots and reasonably good insight into how Orion society works.
 
Last edited:
[X] Plan: Open force is broken, concentrate on burning the roots.
[X][COPS] No changes (may not be taken with any other COPS options).
[X][DETECTIVES] Vulcan Central Inspectorate could be called on. Capable of working through vast conspiracies and webs of deduction. (1 Influence, +3 Impact, apply penalty to Syndicate financial/shipbuilding operations)
[X][DETECTIVES] Detectives from the Indorian Argyle Bench, the center of their serious crimes investigations group can come into play, their natural instinct for pattern matching and recognition could unknot conspiracies. (1 Influence, +2 Impact, bonus to tracking down perpetrators of attacks)
[X][DEVICES] Leave as is
[X][SIG] Leave as is
[X][SHIP] None
[X][COMP] Allow Amash Hagan to proceed. (2 Influence, -2 Syndicate Resilience, +4 Impact)
[X][ENG] Send out Tellarite Engineers (1 Influence, improve bomb resistance to bombs)

I think we have enough ships and troops there. Now we have to find the hidden assets and stop the open ones from reforming after the lost battles.
 
I think we keep the CFP, get as many detectives as we can, and try to rack up as much impact as possible.


[X] Plan Maximum Detectives, Maximum Impact
[X][COPS] No changes (may not be taken with any other COPS options).
[X][DETECTIVES] Vulcan Central Inspectorate could be called on. Capable of working through vast conspiracies and webs of deduction. (1 Influence, +3 Impact, apply penalty to Syndicate financial/shipbuilding operations)
[X][DETECTIVES] Detectives from the Indorian Argyle Bench, the center of their serious crimes investigations group can come into play, their natural instinct for pattern matching and recognition could unknot conspiracies. (1 Influence, +2 Impact, bonus to tracking down perpetrators of attacks)
[X][DEVICES] Leave as is
[X][SIG] Leave as is
[X][COMP] Allow Amash Hagan to proceed. (2 Influence, -2 Syndicate Resilience, +4 Impact)
[x][SHIP] A Rigellian Contingent, with a Turtleship and a Cutter (1 Influence, +4 Impact)
[X][ENG] No thanks

The ships is the best way to get impact and I like the composition of the Tellarite fleet. Vulcan Central Inspectorate is useful now that we're going after financials, and the Indorian detectives are insurance in case of any other big shitstorms. They also give as much influence as the devices for the same price. Avoided all militarization options as that is a hidden cost in PP.
 
Last edited:
Do we still get the option to get BOTH the Rixx Scrutineers and Vulcan Central Inspectorate? IIRC, you allowed that at the cost of 3 influence.

Let me see if I can I found your quote...

Found it!

@sebsmith:

I made a Tellarite cop option for you.

[ ][COPS] Draw on the Tellarite Bobbies. Tellarite Bobbies are used to keeping law on the argumentative Tellarite core worlds and the rough-and-tumble Tellarite mining colonies, they are not particularly heavily armed but sheer stubbornness makes them difficult targets for subversion. (1 Influence, reduces Syndicate event rate, more vulnerable to being disabled by casualties from Syndicate, resistant to infiltration)

@OneirosTheWriter: Is this one OK?

fasquardon
Yes, that would be okay

The combined Vulcan and Betazoid option would need to be 2 Influence, 4 Impact.

@OneirosTheWriter, are these still valid options?


Also, Perth Wildcats just took Game 1 of the NBL Grand Final series, so if people are looking to ask me for favours, now is the time :V

Well you could answer my ship design spreadsheet systemic questions (in PM) :V
 
[] Plan Maximum Detectives, Maximum Impact
I like this plan.


On second thought, the Tellarite engineers are effectively giving us a bit of extra resilience (by reducing cost incurred from bombing attacks).
[] Plan Rigellians
 
Last edited:
Back
Top