Let me put it this way. The last time I see SR being a big concern is 2315, as I anticipate we will be trying to start the Ambassador prototype then while also starting some Renaissances and Excelsiors. After that crew shortages become a much more significant issue. Mind you, that's not taking into account what Orion membership might do for us.

Out of curiosity, would retiring some of the constellations help much?

That's a bit bloodthirsty. those ships have a lot of people on them, most of whom are just soldiers who happen to be loyal to a power we are at odds with.

Which is after all the tragedy of war.

Meh, not trying to be blood thirsty, just practical. A destroyed ship is one less ship they can use in the event of war. My intent was more along the lines of making sure our ships fight as if they are trying to destroy the enemy, not just give them a bloody nose. If a ship escapes, no problem.

That makes sense in the event of war. In this context, not so much. We want a few Cardassian ships running home with their tails between their legs, telling stories of how Federation vessels came after them and beat the dilithium out of them. Furthermore, if there's any chance of avoiding a "no prisoners no survivors" mindset on the Cardassian front, I'd like to avoid that outcome, if reasonably possible.

Remember, we're not doing this just to get a greater numerical advantage in the event of war by destroying a couple of Cardassian ships. The objective is not purely a tactical one like that.

We're doing it in pursuit of a strategic objective: force the Cardassians to refrain from risky, provocative raiding against the Federation and its affiliates, and to convince the key decision-makers of the Cardassian state that the Federation is indeed prepared to go to war with the Cardassian Union.

We aren't much more likely to succeed in those goals by blowing up Cardassian ships than we are to succeed by metaphorically carving our initials into their hulls and sending them scampering away at Warp Factor Lots.

True, though I wonder if they will react the way we are all hoping. It occurs to me that news our ships are acting like that could be used as a diplomatic weapon by playing up how hostile we're being with some of the neutrals.
 
The concern is not the context, but the mechanics. There will be times when we do want to send them to escape pods. We're just making sure the mechanics support that too.

We reach a point of "our reserves run low" as soon as early 2314, during which time we have to crew four Excelsiors within the space of less than six months- one slated for the Explorer Corps coming out of Vulcan, one coming out of Andor, and two at Utopia Planitia, all of which come out of the yard in early 2315.

We start really feeling the bite in late 2315, when crew deducts for the first wave of mass-produced Renaissances (due to complete at the end of 2316Q2).
Let me put it this way. The last time I see SR being a big concern is 2315, as I anticipate we will be trying to start the Ambassador prototype then while also starting some Renaissances and Excelsiors. After that crew shortages become a much more significant issue. Mind you, that's not taking into account what Orion membership might do for us.

Yet when Snakepit comes up we fail to order the crew expansions we need. Yes, they get more expensive. That doesn't stop them from being needed.

e: For context, we voted for expansions in 2309 and 2312.
 
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Out of curiosity, would retiring some of the constellations help much?

It would help some. Refitting them instead of doing new construction would also help some, especially if the players can create a better refit than what's on offer right now.

Yet when Snakepit comes up we fail to order the crew expansions we need. Yes, they get more expensive. That doesn't stop them from being needed.

I just went back and checked the past four years.
2309 - Academy Expansion
2310 - No Expansion, but did request EC recruitment drive
2311 - No Expansion, but did request Betazoid Counselors that help EC crewing
2312 - Academy Expansion and EC recruitment drive

I think we've been doing a reasonable amount towards crew expansions, really.
 
It would help some. Refitting them instead of doing new construction would also help some, especially if the players can create a better refit than what's on offer right now.



I just went back and checked the past four years.
2309 - Academy Expansion
2310 - No Expansion, but did request EC recruitment drive
2311 - No Expansion, but did request Betazoid Counselors that help EC crewing
2312 - Academy Expansion and EC recruitment drive

I think we've been doing a reasonable amount towards crew expansions, really.
I disagree. The first time I reviewed the crew crisis, I came to the conclusion that we would need 3 in next 4 or 3 in next 5 academy expansions to have a decent buffer.
 
Also, one of the best possible outcomes to these skirmish encounters from our point of view would be to force a surrender or a scuttling; as a humiliation it carries plenty of weight, but we didn't kill the ship either. That requires inflicting significant hull damage, enough to prevent easy escape.
 
It would help some. Refitting them instead of doing new construction would also help some, especially if the players can create a better refit than what's on offer right now.

'sighs' Honestly, we should probably just bite the bullet and retire them. Creating another refit will cost PP?, RP?, resources, and yard time. Better to just scrap or mothball them when we need to crew a Renaissance. That would make the first 7 of them only need 1 new crew unit of each type. Scraping would also give us some resources if we went with that.

Oddly, the best reason to bother with keeping them around, and thus creating a refit, would be because the member world fleets have 11 of them and they are, sadly, their main cruiser/heavy ship. (if you can call them that)
 
'sighs' Honestly, we should probably just bite the bullet and retire them. Creating another refit will cost PP?, RP?, resources, and yard time. Better to just scrap or mothball them when we need to crew a Renaissance. That would make the first 7 of them only need 1 new crew unit of each type. Scraping would also give us some resources if we went with that

Just pp. We don't have to build prototypes like we do with new models. But, eh, maybe you're right.
 
Out of curiosity, would retiring some of the constellations help much?
It'd mainly help with enlisted. Each Constellation takes four units of redshirts but only two each of blue- and goldshirts. Trouble is, we're suffering from a serious goldshirt crunch in addition to our redshirt crunch. Even the blueshirt supply isn't that impressive.

So retiring one Constellation might mean we can afford to, say, crew one Renaissance a year or two earlier than would otherwise be possible. But that's about all it would accomplish. To address the problem in the long run we're going to need recruitment, not just robbing Peter to pay Paul.

Meh, not trying to be blood thirsty, just practical. A destroyed ship is one less ship they can use in the event of war. My intent was more along the lines of making sure our ships fight as if they are trying to destroy the enemy, not just give them a bloody nose. If a ship escapes, no problem.
There isn't a lot of difference between trying to blow a ship up and trying to bloody its nose, at least until the shields fail. Kumari acted EXACTLY as it should have done in order to destroy that Jaldun, right up to the point where it 'let them get away,' and letting them get away serves our purposes just fine under the circumstances.

As I said in my last response to you, this skirmishing is not about the purely tactical objective of depriving the Cardassians of a single starship. They have dozens of such ships; them having 39 instead of 40 or whatever isn't going to make a decisive difference. This is about a strategic objective. Namely, serving notice to the Cardassians that yes, we are prepared to fight them, and we think we can win that fight.

The strategic benefit we gain by having a Cardassian ship flee to report just how badly outclassed it was and the fact that we openly attacked them after they did whatever the heck they did to bring this on... That benefit is greater than the tactical benefit we gain by reducing the (already outnumbered) Cardassian fleet by a single ship. Besides, if war blows up in the next few months due to this particular crisis, that ship is out of action anyway, because it'll probably be in the hospital for at least three months.

True, though I wonder if they will react the way we are all hoping. It occurs to me that news our ships are acting like that could be used as a diplomatic weapon by playing up how hostile we're being with some of the neutrals.
At which point we start posting pictures of all the Apiata foragers with holes in them from Cardassian spiral-wave weapons.

Our best xenopsych people, in Oneiros-posts, have told us the Cardassians aren't even going to bother seriously negotiating with us until they're convinced we're willing and able to fight back against them. And canon evidence supports the same conclusion. So I believe that.

'sighs' Honestly, we should probably just bite the bullet and retire them.
No, we really shouldn't. The Constellations provide 21 Defense towards our requirements, they pass event checks far more often than not. They're ships we're comfortable leaving behind when the rest of the fleet goes to red alert and dashes off towards the Cardassian border. All these are important and valuable things.

If we could replace them with a comparable number of Rennies, it would make sense to retire them. But we can't. Not soon. All that would happen if we retired them right now is that our Defense total would go down by about twenty points and we'd suddenly have considerably more trouble covering everything.

And it's that increase to our Defense totals that's even given us the flexibility to have an anti-Syndicate task force and reasonably strong squadrons covering our threatened border zones.

Creating another refit will cost PP?, RP?, resources, and yard time.
The refit will cost a modest amount of PP and resources up front, and a modest amount of yard time. But it adds to our overall fleet strength in useful ways, as demonstrated by the Miranda refits.

Better to just scrap or mothball them when we need to crew a Renaissance. That would make the first 7 of them only need 1 new crew unit of each type. Scraping would also give us some resources if we went with that.
Yes, but the effect wouldn't be that different from upgrading the ship. We'd be removing a Defense 3 ship from play and replacing it with a Defense 5 ship, one that will take 2.25 years (at best) to build. Realistically, we'll end up stuck keeping the Rennies filling the same posts that are now filled by Constellations, instead of having them on the front lines where they belong.

A decent Constellation refit would give us ships that can hold down our internal sectors quite effectively. This enables us to concentrate our modern cruisers (the Renaissances and ConnieBees) on the frontiers, taking advantage of their "can beat a Jaldun" combat stats.

While I'm not fundamentally opposed to mothballing a Constellation or two if we have to, we really should model their crews as serving a necessary function, not just as a big pinata we can hit to knock loose crew for new construction.
 
We should consider mothballing Constellations IF and ONLY IF that mothballing lets us field an additional Rennie.

However, we should absolutely acquire the refit, for member fleets, to keep Challorn's blooded crew in play a bit longer, and for yard efficiency.
I wonder if Cardassia is ready for the battle fleet?
The force from Sacrifice of Angels? There's no point in even engaging the combat engine for that. 8 Galaxies, 7+ Akiras, 3+ Steamrunners, 10+ Miranda-A+, 5+ Excelsior-A+ and the Defiant? They can throw their entire fleet at it and achieve nothing.
 
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Yes, but the effect wouldn't be that different from upgrading the ship. We'd be removing a Defense 3 ship from play and replacing it with a Defense 5 ship, one that will take 2.25 years (at best) to build.
No we can just scrap Constalletion when we are ready to crew Rennie which is 1 year before its lunch. Not 2.25 years or whatever.

Also We have no gurentee we will be able to afford keep the both, especially if a war starts soon. Time after all our biggest problem now. If it means getting a Rennie 1 year earlier then I am willing to make that trade. That year might be the year the wars starts after all.

A better idea would be mothballing the Constellation for Rennie and come back to it when we have more crew rather than delaying the Rennie for Constellation. Which you seem to suggest despite that being sub par choice in this context.
I wonder if Cardassia is ready for the battle fleet?
Where is that from?
 
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No we can just scrap Constalletion when we are ready to crew Rennie which is 1 year before its lunch. Not 2.25 years or whatever.
The catch is, we're still spending 2.25 years of yard time to build a ship that serves only to replace an existing Constellation with a bigger, badder ship. The effect on our deployments will be very similar to what we'd get from refitting a Constellation (Defense 3 to 5 instead of 3 to 4, Science/Presence of 2/2 to 3/4 instead of 3/2).

Only it'd cost a lot more (65/60 resources, 1 crew each category, 2.25 years berth time, as opposed to 10/5 resources, no crew, 1 year berth time). Note that I say 65/60 because I'm assuming the Constellation in question actually gets scrapped, not just retired.

We get major benefits from a new Rennie if and only if that ship is free to operate on the front lines or to be sent to crisis spots where we perceive the maximum need. Knocking holes in our deployment structure by retiring Constellations compromises our ability to do that.

Also We have no gurentee we will be able to afford keep the both, especially if a war starts soon. Time after all our biggest problem now. If it means getting a Rennie 1 year earlier then I am willing to make that trade. That year might be the year the wars starts after all.
That logic supports the idea of retiring Constellations, but not quite the way you have in mind. See my footnote.

A better idea would be mothballing the Constellation for Rennie and come back to it when we have more crew rather than delaying the Rennie for Constellation. Which you seem to suggest despite that being sub par choice in this context.
As I thought I said, I'm not opposed to doing this once or twice. I'm not opposed to doing it if we're that hard up for redshirts, and if there aren't other more profitable uses of our resources.* What I don't want to do is jump all the way to "bite the bullet and retire the Constellations," because that really is not a good idea at this time, especially compared to the alternative of refitting them. Especially if we can get a refit that turns them into Science/Presence/Defense utility ships, as opposed to being in this weird bastardized state of having high combat but low durability.

If a Constellation-A can be given a statline more like the one the Centaur-A got, then the refits suddenly become very appealing as a short term action to make sure our rear area is well covered so that our new build ships can go off into battle safely.
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*Like mothballing one Constellation to put the crew into two Miranda-As, that outperform a Rennie in battle and take exactly the same crew as a Constellation, not "the whole crew +1 in each category")
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EDIT: To be clear, the refit statline Oneiros made up for the Constellation-A takes a ship with stats 3/2/2/2/2/3 and turns it into 4/3/2/2/2/4. It would be nice if we could get something more like 3/3/2/2/3/4, which would give the refit Constellations equal or performance to a Centaur-A for event response purposes, and fill Defense requirements better.

Optimization tweaks that improve beyond that baseline would be even better, of course, but I'm not sure how much is actually possible even with 2310s parts.
 
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I think it would make more sense to send the constells to the member worlds rather than scrapping them. Gives us more ships for SoE moments and gives the member worlds more ships to use for what ever purpose they want.
 
The force from Sacrifice of Angels? There's no point in even engaging the combat engine for that. 8 Galaxies, 7+ Akiras, 3+ Steamrunners, 10+ Miranda-A+, 5+ Excelsior-A+ and the Defiant? They can throw their entire fleet at it and achieve nothing.

If we had that fleet right now we could reduce the Cardassian fleet to wreckage and not even break a sweat. but then That force is over a hundred years in the future from where we are right now. Sorry I am not good with timelines so be patient with me.
No we can just scrap Constalletion when we are ready to crew Rennie which is 1 year before its lunch. Not 2.25 years or whatever.

Also We have no gurentee we will be able to afford keep the both, especially if a war starts soon. Time after all our biggest problem now. If it means getting a Rennie 1 year earlier then I am willing to make that trade. That year might be the year the wars starts after all.

A better idea would be mothballing the Constellation for Rennie and come back to it when we have more crew rather than delaying the Rennie for Constellation. Which you seem to suggest despite that being sub par choice in this context.

Where is that from?
That's from the Star Trek Deep Space Nine episode Sacrifice of Angels.
 
I think it would make more sense to send the constells to the member worlds rather than scrapping them. Gives us more ships for SoE moments and gives the member worlds more ships to use for what ever purpose they want.
That only works if the member worlds can easily drum up the crews for the new ships. The big weakness of the Constellations is their extremely punishing crew requirements, after all. Most of the member worlds would probably rather just build their own Centaur-As or Renaissances, assuming they actually have the resources to pay for it. And if they haven't got the resources, they probably don't have the crew, either.

Now, the Indorions or Apiata might be so desperate for more ships of ANY kind that they're willing to accept the 'gifted' hulls and somehow drum up extra recruits to stuff into them (especially the Apiata, who probably view crew as semi-expendable). But that's a special case.

[Constellations don't really work with Apiata doctrine, but they could at least be used for things like convoy escorts and making sure lone Foragers aren't hopelessly easy prey for Cardassian escorts]
 

Going point by point.

-The Cardassians, Bloodthirstiness and Goals.
We will see what happens. And the whole thing regarding going for the kill was started over talk about the retreat mechanic, something that has since been answered. Finally, if the war happens in the next few months skirmishing with the Cardassians during "peacetime" becomes academic anyway.

-The Constellation.
My entire post was made with regards to the crew crunch we were just talking about. A Constellation-A would be a bad idea from that perspective, IF we can't get a refit that reduces crew cost. Something we hopefully can given it's just a glorified escort no matter how you look at it.

Also, at no point in my post did I say to retire them all right this moment. With regards to ship postings, there's no reason we don't just post the Renaissance's to the borders while shifting Centaur-A's back to the core sectors.

Finally, I wish we could just do both but as I understand it we are bottle-necking shipyard berths.
 
I wonder if we can specifically try for a "Automation" refit with the Consties?
 
That only works if the member worlds can easily drum up the crews for the new ships. The big weakness of the Constellations is their extremely punishing crew requirements, after all. Most of the member worlds would probably rather just build their own Centaur-As or Renaissances, assuming they actually have the resources to pay for it. And if they haven't got the resources, they probably don't have the crew, either.

Now, the Indorions or Apiata might be so desperate for more ships of ANY kind that they're willing to accept the 'gifted' hulls and somehow drum up extra recruits to stuff into them (especially the Apiata, who probably view crew as semi-expendable). But that's a special case.

[Constellations don't really work with Apiata doctrine, but they could at least be used for things like convoy escorts and making sure lone Foragers aren't hopelessly easy prey for Cardassian escorts]

Somehow I can't see the Apiata, they of the crystal meth powered doom armada, being grateful for constellations.
 
They're fast. The Apiata like fast. Constie "interceptor" mobs to respond to incursions into their space.
 
Going point by point.

-The Cardassians, Bloodthirstiness and Goals.
We will see what happens. And the whole thing regarding going for the kill was started over talk about the retreat mechanic, something that has since been answered. Finally, if the war happens in the next few months skirmishing with the Cardassians during "peacetime" becomes academic anyway.
Okay, but my point is a serious one- we shouldn't lose sight of a strategic goal just because of a tactical goal like "make the enemy have one less ship." Virtually every decision we've ever made in this game was made with political implications and not just military ones; that's one of the things I like about it.

-The Constellation.
My entire post was made with regards to the crew crunch we were just talking about. A Constellation-A would be a bad idea from that perspective, IF we can't get a refit that reduces crew cost. Something we hopefully can given it's just a glorified escort no matter how you look at it.
The Constellation-A refits do us no harm from a crew standpoint because they cost us nothing we haven't already spent.

The point I'm trying to make is that retiring a Constellation to free up crew for a Renaissance is, in effect, a very very expensive way of refitting a Constellation. Instead of spending a tiny amount of resources and one year of berth time to replace a mediocre ship with a slightly better one, we spend a large sum of resources, some crew, and 2.25 to 3 years of berth time to replace a mediocre ship with a good ship. That's not necessarily a bad idea, mind you- but isn't a case of "we give up something of little or no value, and get back a good ship in return." The hole opened up in our deployments still has to be filled. Even if we play musical chairs as you suggest (sending a Centaur-A to do the Constellation's job and the new Rennie to do the Centaur-A's job), we haven't really increased our total fleet strength by very much.

Finally, I wish we could just do both but as I understand it we are bottle-necking shipyard berths.
Our real bottleneck right now is crew- the number of ships we can have in 2320 is more sharply limited by crew capacity than it is by berth capacity. Furthermore, we have cheap options for expanding our berthing infrastructure that would bear fruit in a fairly short time, whereas we have very few ways to rapidly increase crew numbers, and the ones we do have tend to take a very long time to make themselves felt.

Now sure, ALL of our resources become 'bottlenecks' in the sense that if we resolved all our other problems that would become the limiting factor... but it's meaningless to talk about something as a 'bottleneck' when it isn't actually a limiting factor on your expansion under present conditions.

I wonder if we can specifically try for a "Automation" refit with the Consties?
That would be a very nice thing.

Somehow I can't see the Apiata, they of the crystal meth powered doom armada, being grateful for constellations.
It depends. I suspect the Apiata are building their native designs literally as fast as possible; they have two explorer berths and eight (!) escort berths, so they can probably manage a queenship every other year and about four Stingers a year.*

The question is, how does that compare to their crew requirements? The Apiata have a willingness to sacrifice 'worker bees' in combat that gives them casualty-insensitivity that probably lies somewhere between, oh, the Klingons and the Jem'Hadar.

I strongly suspect that, like the Cardassians they're fighting, the Apiata can reasonably plan to crew all the ships they're capable of building and then some- they're shipyard or resource-limited, not crew-limited like us. Therefore, offering them ANY free ship is beneficial to them, because they can put crew aboard that ship and operate it for SOMETHING. Even if it can't keep up with their core force of Stingers and Queenships, it can still carry out escort, picket, and patrol duties.

So for them it's like "Hey, free ships! They're not best ships, but they help alleviate your number one worry, which is literally not being able to build new ships fast enough to defend yourself against the sheer bulk of the Cardassian fleet!"
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*[Honestly, the biggest argument against them accepting Constellations, or any Federation starship, is that they're too large to fit in a Stinger berth. So repairing them would be difficult unless they can ship them back to a Starfleet yard for repairs]
 
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IMO, when we get to the point that we have surplus resources and our bottleneck is crew, that will be the time to phase out Consties for Rennies. Until then, welp, at least they're the ship we have.
 
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