I wonder if celos is any less attractive now that we've almost won? it's use as a way to claim the federation fired first is much reduced since the syndicate forces are already in the process of collapsing, at this point it might not be a big enough fig leaf for their client states to buy it.
 
That's all very positive, but the fact right now is that they are the ones making a move. They wouldn't be doing this 'diplomacy' if they didn't see a way to come out of it on top.

What worries me now is that they're going to propose a deal that the Federation Council can live with, but that leaves the player base apoplectic with rage.

They have an ultra-limited window to act; not only is Celos not a going concern for long, when Celos is liberated we will have successfully cleansed a major Orion world of Syndicate influence, with the Syndicate's connivance at their own destruction. That's going to really hurt them. Then the Duaba campaign ratchets back up again and Starfleet clears another colony and we've probably passed the halfway point.

The Cardassians are almost certainly going make a take-or-leave demand rather than offer a negotiable deal. The window of opportunity is closing.
 
That's all very positive, but the fact right now is that they are the ones making a move. They wouldn't be doing this 'diplomacy' if they didn't see a way to come out of it on top.

What worries me now is that they're going to propose a deal that the Federation Council can live with, but that leaves the player base apoplectic with rage.
They're on a very nasty time limit. All we have to do is stall and then go "Oh, that's funny, Celos doesn't want you."

Also they really, really don't get us. They're trying to play diplo mind games while working off of a bad model.
 
They're on a very nasty time limit. All we have to do is stall and then go "Oh, that's funny, Celos doesn't want you."

Also they really, really don't get us. They're trying to play diplo mind games while working off of a bad model.

Or they're the ones stalling for time until their new Breen friends can get into position on our coreward flank.

If they're doing something that appears totally stupid, then there's probably something we don't know.
 
Or they're the ones stalling for time until their new Breen friends can get into position on our coreward flank.

If they're doing something that appears totally stupid, then there's probably something we don't know.
Or there's something THEY don't know. Nobody has perfect information.

The Romulans played cloak and dagger back at the very beginning of the biophage crisis rather than contact us because they didn't realize that our response would be to drop everything and take it down.

The entire Dawair mess was over a miscommunication.

Grey October was mainly tricky because we didn't KNOW there was a defection.

Oh look, they probably don't know we're already rolling up Celos, and we know they don't understand our internal politics.
 
Or there's something THEY don't know. Nobody has perfect information.

The Romulans played cloak and dagger back at the very beginning of the biophage crisis rather than contact us because they didn't realize that our response would be to drop everything and take it down.

The entire Dawair mess was over a miscommunication.

Grey October was mainly tricky because we didn't KNOW there was a defection.

Oh look, they probably don't know we're already rolling up Celos, and we know they don't understand our internal politics.
I'm sure they don't understand our internal politics. But if there's one thing the Cardassians do know, it's "bust dissident heads." They have to have a rough estimate of the physical size of the populations and resources involved. So they can't realistically expect us to fail to retake Celos. Not unless they think that Federation support for the anti-Syndicate campaign is so weak that the campaign would have fallen apart under its own weight already.

They may be mistaken about various other key facts. But they're going to know Celos can't hold out for long. I'm pretty sure that when they were actually extending offers of Cardassian backing to Orions who wanted to oppose/resist the Union government, they were thinking in terms of someone actually overthrowing the government, of having the whole Orion Union turn against the Federation all at once. Or at least having 'half' the Union turn against us and in favor of Cardassia.

I doubt they were imagining one isolated colony planet doing the same thing and then somehow expecting the Cardies to bail them out.
 
They have an ultra-limited window to act; not only is Celos not a going concern for long, when Celos is liberated we will have successfully cleansed a major Orion world of Syndicate influence, with the Syndicate's connivance at their own destruction. That's going to really hurt them. Then the Duaba campaign ratchets back up again and Starfleet clears another colony and we've probably passed the halfway point.

The Cardassians are almost certainly going make a take-or-leave demand rather than offer a negotiable deal. The window of opportunity is closing.

There's also the advantage for us that after we liberate Celia we can go: "There. Cells is what Syndicate/Hypercorp controlled looks like. Mind controlled slaves made from the lower classes to fight and die at the command of people wanting to hand control over to /Cardassia/ and personally icky on top of that". And it's probably also energized the other side and pushed fence sitters away (Though it could end up being a double edged sword if things get too radicalized) if we don't go to full war, it'll end up helping us.
 
I am really hoping Linderly can pull a rabit out of his hat and get solid proof tying the Celos government to the people who ordered the bombing on Amarkia. That would be a major propo coup.
 
There's also the advantage for us that after we liberate Celia we can go: "There. Cells is what Syndicate/Hypercorp controlled looks like. Mind controlled slaves made from the lower classes to fight and die at the command of people wanting to hand control over to /Cardassia/ and personally icky on top of that". And it's probably also energized the other side and pushed fence sitters away (Though it could end up being a double edged sword if things get too radicalized) if we don't go to full war, it'll end up helping us.
True, although that calculation probably won't directly affect the Cardassians, if only because I don't think they're savvy enough to do that math. They don't know enough about the politics involved in actually manipulating public opinion, as opposed to just telling your Public Information Guy to go out and tell lies everyone has to pretend to believe or their families are endangered.

It affects us, though.

Also... [hugs] Your struggles with autocorrect have my utmost sympathy.
 
I'm sure they don't understand our internal politics. But if there's one thing the Cardassians do know, it's "bust dissident heads." They have to have a rough estimate of the physical size of the populations and resources involved. So they can't realistically expect us to fail to retake Celos. Not unless they think that Federation support for the anti-Syndicate campaign is so weak that the campaign would have fallen apart under its own weight already.

They may be mistaken about various other key facts. But they're going to know Celos can't hold out for long. I'm pretty sure that when they were actually extending offers of Cardassian backing to Orions who wanted to oppose/resist the Union government, they were thinking in terms of someone actually overthrowing the government, of having the whole Orion Union turn against the Federation all at once. Or at least having 'half' the Union turn against us and in favor of Cardassia.

I doubt they were imagining one isolated colony planet doing the same thing and then somehow expecting the Cardies to bail them out.

Oh my Elements.

That's probably exactly what happened. Theyou got a message saying "The Corporate Republic of Celos has overthrown the illegal and illegitimate Union government and is fighting along with de-radicalized Syndicate to finally bring an end to the Union and throw out their puppetmasters. And got a call from the new megalomaniacal president of the Corporate Republic telling them how great she is, believe her, she has the best people, she'Ll make Orion great again, make the best trade deals with Cardassia.

And then the Cardassians say "That sounds fucking great. These promises are amazing. The Federation is openly reporting on all of these setbacks and protests and fighting; the reality must be so much worse!"

So they say to the galaxy: "The Celosians and the Syndicate have a fleet, they have an army, and now they have a Capital. They must be protected..." and so on.

So now they show up (and he'll we can even take their diplomat to Celos and show him or her around) and that Cardassian will find himself in a golden bunker with Garita going "Your army is literally mind washed slaves. THAT ARE LOOSING. Your Navy is nowhere to be found. And you don't even control your own capital building. You have half a city president. Half a city /that is on fire/ protected only by zombies. Cardassia isn't even going to waste the energy it would take to beam you up with me. Goodbye "Mrs. President""
 
It depends.

Do they care about the situation on the ground in Celos?
Or do they care simply that the Corporate Republic exists as a pretense for other things?

Clearly, the solution is for the Corporate Republic to cease to exist. But I don't know if little trivialities like "you control half a city" matter in the world of pretenses.
 
The other thing is that they may be watching us fight the Syndicate and have decided that we're made of sterner stuff they thought. "Oh, those Federation, they don't have their dissidents under proper control, they got a capital bomb-holy shit are you telling me they staged an immediate counterstrike, did weird geology-based beaming tricks, and are photon torpeding and phasering things from orbit? Civilian population areas? Maybe they're more like us than we think!"
 
Slight delay on posting - the third Captains Log has some skirmishing and also the wargames. I'm busily coding in ways for unique tactics like the Apiata to take effect.

Will also mean Starfleet Tactical Command turns get more useful because you can give me if-then-else's for how you want your fleets to fight.
 
It depends.

Do they care about the situation on the ground in Celos?
Or do they care simply that the Corporate Republic exists as a pretense for other things?

Clearly, the solution is for the Corporate Republic to cease to exist. But I don't know if little trivialities like "you control half a city" matter in the world of pretenses.
The thing is, the pretense needs to be something our affiliates will buy, and something the Dawair will buy. The corperate republic existing as a warzone the size of half a city will not be sufficient for either of those.
 
My war goals would basically be limited to wrecking as much destruction on the Cardassian fleet and merchant marine as possible. I think that around the hypothetical time we would have destroyed the Cardassian navy and as a fighting force, the Pacifists would be screaming for a reason we hadn't ended the war several battles before. Beyond that, destroying as much of their BR/SR production capability as possible and raiding their stockpile of materials. Raiding shipyards to destroy partial builds or structures themselves (preferably civilian construction) would be nice, too

Hmm, well I would point out that we have 0 Militarization and 13 Threat right now and quite frankly what else are we ever likely to spend it on other than dedicated combat designs? (I assume ship Militarization cost is just a one time thing, otherwise never mind)

I know SWB already covered this, but do note that having 0 Militarization and 13 threat doesn't mean that we should be willing to eat Militarization. Actions we may consider beneficial (I suspect that going to war with Cardassia despite offers of peace will be one) may have Militarization tied to them. Previous examples include deploying the Catian Frontier Police as opposed to Andorian cops (and Amarkian Gendarmes would have been even worse). Also, my read is not that raising Militarization above Threat is the problem, but getting a lot of Militarization means that it is more likely the Council will oppose our decisions or force an early retirement.

Mothballing, well A), that was a while ago and about ships we would be getting service out of in the mean time, and B), if it still works that way I can't think of a reason to ever bother keeping ships in mothballs then.

Well, I would imagine that things could be argued many ways, but Oneiros has stated multiple times that the Council isn't stupid. A policy of "let's keep a fleet of high-Combat ships around that in under a year we can swap our Science ships out for" will probably result in them counting at least partially against the Combat Cap, and may even earn us Militarization. It depends on the design, I guess. Something like the proposed S1/P1/everything else 3 is prety blatant. Mirandas, probably not as much.

That said, this is a question for @OneirosTheWriter to answer.
 
The other thing is that they may be watching us fight the Syndicate and have decided that we're made of sterner stuff they thought. "Oh, those Federation, they don't have their dissidents under proper control, they got a capital bomb-holy shit are you telling me they staged an immediate counterstrike, did weird geology-based beaming tricks, and are photon torpeding and phasering things from orbit? Civilian population areas? Maybe they're more like us than we think!"
Eyup. They haven't seen much of warface UFP. Warface UFP is SCARY.
 
Slight delay on posting - the third Captains Log has some skirmishing and also the wargames. I'm busily coding in ways for unique tactics like the Apiata to take effect.

Will also mean Starfleet Tactical Command turns get more useful because you can give me if-then-else's for how you want your fleets to fight.


We'll have to see a lot of the system in action to understand how each tactic actually makes a difference to the result. Intuition doesn't really serve us as well as we might think.
 
Will also mean Starfleet Tactical Command turns get more useful because you can give me if-then-else's for how you want your fleets to fight.

Not Entirely Serious suggestions:

If Fed Combat > 2 * enemy Combat - give enemy a surrender option - if refused, disable engines/weapon and repeat. If still refused, destroy them.
Else If Fed Combat < enemy Combat - break out the fancy Nav Deflector 'tech-of-the-week' publications and see what you can do.
Else Prepare Red Shirt Coffins.
 
Will also mean Starfleet Tactical Command turns get more useful because you can give me if-then-else's for how you want your fleets to fight.

The most important thing for me is that there are decent trade-offs for any mode. "Better chance of breaking off a battle that is going unfavorably but lesser chance of winning in the first place" versus "greatest chance of destroying enemy ships but higher chances your own ships get damaged". That sort of thing. I'd hate to see the thread regarding it as a no-brainer call.
 
I know SWB already covered this, but do note that having 0 Militarization and 13 threat doesn't mean that we should be willing to eat Militarization. Actions we may consider beneficial (I suspect that going to war with Cardassia despite offers of peace will be one) may have Militarization tied to them. Previous examples include deploying the Catian Frontier Police as opposed to Andorian cops (and Amarkian Gendarmes would have been even worse). Also, my read is not that raising Militarization above Threat is the problem, but getting a lot of Militarization means that it is more likely the Council will oppose our decisions or force an early retirement.

Eh, my thoughts were simply that it would be worth eating a point or two in order to design a combat focused ship, escort or cruiser, since we don't tend to use Militarization for anything else. Since that's apparently not how it works, the only thing that would make it even remotely worth it would be some sort of combat dedicated explorer class with +8 stats that also wouldn't break the bank resource wise and is quick to build while only costing a single Militarization point each.

Well, I would imagine that things could be argued many ways, but Oneiros has stated multiple times that the Council isn't stupid. A policy of "let's keep a fleet of high-Combat ships around that in under a year we can swap our Science ships out for" will probably result in them counting at least partially against the Combat Cap, and may even earn us Militarization. It depends on the design, I guess. Something like the proposed S1/P1/everything else 3 is prety blatant. Mirandas, probably not as much.

It was more like "Well we've got all these Miranda 2.0's that we built to fight that war with INSERT_ENEMY_HERE, let's mothball them in case we have a future need for canon fodder since they are useless for peacetime work."

Switching out crew from science ships to those vessels didn't even occur to me since I imagine anything we build from here on out will be rather more useful than one of these ships, even in war time. The way to crew them would be with war time emergency recruitment and whatever spare crew we had lying around.

Anyway, this is all theoretical at the moment so it hardly matters right now.
 
The most important thing for me is that there are decent trade-offs for any mode. "Better chance of breaking off a battle that is going unfavorably but lesser chance of winning in the first place" versus "greatest chance of destroying enemy ships but higher chances your own ships get damaged". That sort of thing. I'd hate to see the thread regarding it as a no-brainer call.
Most of my effort at the moment is setting up Apiata logic, since they are deeply involved in the war games and arguably have the most specialised logic.

At the moment it is things like keeping Queenships back of the line, and taking big penalties to ensure that damaged Queenships have a chance to escape, as well as instituting swarm doctrine bonuses when they apply.
 
I have read all of the Biophage pages and I haven't read anything about what the consequences were for the Romulans over letting the Biophage get so far out of control and not telling the Federation and Klingons about it. I am interested in what happened in Romulan space after the crisis was over since the entire thing was their fault in the first place. I am pretty sure that the Federation and the Klingons were quite angry with them for withholding that information.
 
Oh my Elements.

That's probably exactly what happened. Theyou got a message saying "The Corporate Republic of Celos has overthrown the illegal and illegitimate Union government and is fighting along with de-radicalized Syndicate to finally bring an end to the Union and throw out their puppetmasters. And got a call from the new megalomaniacal president of the Corporate Republic telling them how great she is, believe her, she has the best people, she'Ll make Orion great again, make the best trade deals with Cardassia.

And then the Cardassians say "That sounds fucking great. These promises are amazing. The Federation is openly reporting on all of these setbacks and protests and fighting; the reality must be so much worse!"

So they say to the galaxy: "The Celosians and the Syndicate have a fleet, they have an army, and now they have a Capital. They must be protected..." and so on.

So now they show up (and he'll we can even take their diplomat to Celos and show him or her around) and that Cardassian will find himself in a golden bunker with Garita going "Your army is literally mind washed slaves. THAT ARE LOOSING. Your Navy is nowhere to be found. And you don't even control your own capital building. You have half a city president. Half a city /that is on fire/ protected only by zombies. Cardassia isn't even going to waste the energy it would take to beam you up with me. Goodbye "Mrs. President""
I love it.

It depends.

Do they care about the situation on the ground in Celos?
Or do they care simply that the Corporate Republic exists as a pretense for other things?

Clearly, the solution is for the Corporate Republic to cease to exist. But I don't know if little trivialities like "you control half a city" matter in the world of pretenses.
Well, what it comes down to is that if they try to make demands on behalf of a political entity that has a life expectancy measured in days...

1) They look stupid for backing a blatantly losing team. Like, seriously, you were really prepared to even pretend to be willing to go to war on behalf of a woman whose 'nation' is one half of a burning city guarded only by zombies?

2) Related to being made to look stupid, but slightly different: They are also made to look weak for having said 'we will protect the Republic of Celos,' only for the Republic of Celos to immediately fall. It devalues future claims of Cardassian protection.

These are the reasons that a guerilla movement fighting for independence USUALLY has to inflict some significant defeats on the government forces before foreign powers start paying any attention (e.g. the American Revolution and the battle of Saratoga).

Eh, my thoughts were simply that it would be worth eating a point or two in order to design a combat focused ship, escort or cruiser, since we don't tend to use Militarization for anything else.
Yes, that's mostly because we may really need militarization in the near future. And because we don't want to bring militarization close to Threat if we can reasonably help it. It's the one currency we cannot easily replace; buying down a point of militarization costs something like 50-60 political will.

Some day we may really, really want to spend +3 militarization on something we think we need (say, pushing the Federation to keep fighting Cardassians until Bajor is liberated). When that day comes, our overall effort to keep militarization as low as possible is going to pay off big-time.

I have read all of the Biophage pages and I haven't read anything about what the consequences were for the Romulans over letting the Biophage get so far out of control and not telling the Federation and Klingons about it. I am interested in what happened in Romulan space after the crisis was over since the entire thing was their fault in the first place. I am pretty sure that the Federation and the Klingons were quite angry with them for withholding that information.
The Romulans were "punished" by suffering worse losses to the Biophage than the other two major powers. They lost a major capital ship and a number of other ships. They had to evacuate just as many colonies, if not more.

And afterwards, the Federation in particular did NOT seek to punish them, because frankly the Romulans even telling us about the Biophage at all represented a huge step forward in mutual trust for the Romulan-Federation relationship.

Look at how Romulan-Federation interactions look in either the TOS era or the TNG era. The Romulans grudgingly getting around to actually telling us about a massive threat we need to work together in order to stop... that's an improvement! Romulan-Federation relationships as a result of that crisis are much better than in canon. Not just 'in canon as of the early 2300s." Better than they EVER were, at any point whatsoever, in the roughly 220 years the two nations were interacting in canon.

So for the Federation, being bitter towards the Romulans would be spiteful and foolish. They came out of their shell for literally the first time ever and were willing to work with us, peaceably and honestly? And you want to punish them for that? On account of how things could hypothetically have gone better, if they had (totally against their national character and culture) been even more forthcoming?

The Klingons, by contrast, may be harboring some resentment. For all we know that's one of the reasons they're now planning for war with the Romulans. But we don't have the kind of detailed information on Klingon/Romulan internal politics that would tell us what's going on between them.
 
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