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To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)

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To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest) Starfleet Ship Design Bureau, Refit ("To Boldly Go...")
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EDIT:

@fasquardon , this might be a good place to start. This particular post by @IronWolf is what started the ball rolling, in a sense.

[Link deleted, on further rereading, a fair number of things in here have been decanonized by default, like the part where the Syndicate actually controls the original Orion homeworld, as opposed to it being a bombed-out dead world]

fasquardon said:
Keep in mind, this quest produces more material than I have time to read, so I don't follow alot of the chat or read much of the omakes.

Which is why I posted to ask what the canon in this quest was and warn people of just how deeply rooted in Orion culture the Syndicate could be depending on what the canon is. (When I first raised the issue, I don't know if TBG really had any canon on the Orions.)

No-one answered my questions for, um, most of the Master of Orion arc. So if you want to discuss the Orions of TBG, could you maybe discuss them in an accessible way and remember that some of the participants aren't able to participate as deeply as you in the quest?
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Well, quite simply, the Syndicate is clearly a secret society that's been acting as a 'shadow government' for much of the Orion population for some time. They predate the current Union government and are deeply established, but on the other hand I suspect they have a lot of fairweather friends in Orion society who will start to back away from them if they spend a few years losing.

The private opinion of Orions on the ground seems to be mixed. There are clearly a lot of Orions at the high levels of the Union government who despise the Syndicate and consider it an unambiguous enemy of the state. The existence of the planet Broken Chains*, which was literally the only planet in Orion space with Low corruption when we began our offensive, suggests that there are Orion populist movements that reject the Syndicate, probably because they consider it complicit in the old hypercorporate power structure.

...

So on the one hand, it's safe to say that there are Orions who view the Syndicate in a heroic light. Perhaps because of propaganda about its role in fighting the Hur'q, or claims to be the same organization that did some comparably heroic things in the millenia-distant past.

On the other hand, the Syndicate does seem to need to enthrall and subvert and blackmail Orions rather than just having a nigh-unlimited pool of people willing to die for them. There are clearly a lot of Orion citizens who think the Syndicate is a bad thing, at least in theory, or the anti-Syndicate stance wouldn't be tenable for the Union government itself. Many Orions probably view the Syndicate as inherently indestructible, an institution that is so much a part of Orion society that whether it's good or bad is largely irrelevant.

In other words, they're not as popular as George Washington, but they're not as un-popular as Pablo Escobar. Somewhere in the middle.

...

How about you continue asking specific questions? There are half a dozen people who'd be happy to answer them as best they can.
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*(a renamed world that was once capital of an Orion revolutionary government that merged with the overall Union as said Union spread to include more Orion colony worlds)
 
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fasquardon said:
Well, do we know why the Orions who like the Syndicate like it?
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A few reasons. Because it was seen as the only alternative to a corrupt government run for the benefit of the wealthy in the bad old days, and the shine hasn't worn off. Because crime pays. Because they're willing to sell you anything you want, from slaves to weapons to untaxed goods. Because if you don't "like" the Syndicate they might kill you and your entire family, so best to "like" them, eh?

And do we know why the Orion government dislikes it?
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Because they are slavers, thieves, and murderers who constantly attempt to corrupt and suborn honest government at every level. We've seen lots of reports about officials who turned out to be in the Syndicate's pocket.
 
One thing I think needs to be remembered is the Union's current government did get elected. I mean, it remains to be seen how popular they are now, but they have a popular mandate. That means that there are plenty of Orions who do support their actions, who have lost people or property to the Syndicate, live in areas made terrible by crime, suffer racism outside of Orion space because of the actions of criminals, and so on. We don't really see it because we're at arms length and at the opposite end of the scale.
 
I should note the Syndicate operating as basically the representative of the Orion people is mostly extrapolating from some stuff in Enterprise. They are antagonists at several points in the show, and are noted for slaving. In another episode, there's a bit of dialogue about how "Orions are slavers!" Now I suppose there could be an Orion government that also slaves, but I took this to mean that the general view is the Syndicate and 'Orions' are so collectively entwined that the galaxy at large views the Syndicate as representing the species.
 
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fasquardon said:
Well, do we know why the Orions who like the Syndicate like it?

And do we know why the Orion government dislikes it?

fasquardon
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This, basically:
AKuz said:
Asurva lets out a breath. "Did you know that about half the Syndicate membership comes from lower class poor and half the leadership comes from the Hypercorp execs?"

"Like Zhiddi?" Ka'Sharren looks like something died in her mouth.

"Yes." The Orion pauses to collect her thoughts, "The Syndicate has been with us since we first tried to get to the stars. First as a honestly idealistic company then the leading Megacorp of the old Empire, then as the last remnant of starfaring society, and now as the underbelly and dark Id of an entire quadrant" she shrugs, "But you know that. I bet your tactical courses taught you all about organization and methods along with the Klingons and Romulans. The problem that doesn't get addressed is that the Syndicate exists because Orion society is so screwed up."

Nash's antennae focus in curiosity on the doctor as she continued, "It's always been the only place where the poor could really gain power and where the rich could risk it all to gain legendary wealth. It's so common that Syndicate ties are often seen as an open secret or almost as an in joke among polite company. It's only really the middle class among the Orions that really dislike the Syndicate."
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ThoughtMaster said:
Um, not the mirror universe, just the Abrams universe.
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Nah, you're clearly following the Mirror Universe version of this quest. I mean come on, you want to name our ground task force "Vengeance?" Bleh.

fasquardon said:
Well, do we know why the Orions who like the Syndicate like it?
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As Briefvoice alluded to, the Syndicate was seen as an accessible ladder to power for low-status individuals within Orion society (of whom there are many), for a LONG time. Democracy as opposed to corporatocracy is a new idea in Orion space, basically. The Syndicate may not be democratic, but it was at least a power structure not overtly run by large corporations.

Also, as the campaign against the Syndicate revs up, the Syndicate MAY become seen as defending Orion space from outside aliens, or defending common Orion citizens from an increasingly brutal Union government. We're trying to avoid creating those perceptions because it will make our jobs a lot harder.

And do we know why the Orion government dislikes it?
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Everything Briefvoice said.

Furthermore, the Union government itself is a new thing that was founded in large part after a revolutionary movement that legally abolished slavery in much if not all of Orion space, and greatly diminished the power of corporations. Hence a planet getting renamed 'Broken Chains,' and this planet being seen as important enough to justify housing the capital there four months out of the year. Since the Syndicate is still aligned with pro-slavery interests in Orion society, the Union government has another excellent reason to oppose it.

SynchronizedWritersBlock said:
One thing I think needs to be remembered is the Union's current government did get elected. I mean, it remains to be seen how popular they are now, but they have a popular mandate. That means that there are plenty of Orions who do support their actions, who have lost people or property to the Syndicate, live in areas made terrible by crime, suffer racism outside of Orion space because of the actions of criminals, and so on. We don't really see it because we're at arms length and at the opposite end of the scale.
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Yeah, I tried to touch on this earlier in my post before last. There are a lot of Orions who dislike the Syndicate, and a significant fraction who hate them. If it weren't for the Syndicate's very effective use of terror tactics by doing things like targeting the families of those who are outspoken in opposing it... I suspect the Syndicate would have only a fairly small minority of real friends. Not sure how much- maybe only 10% of the population, but maybe a quarter, or even a third. It might depend on which planet(s) you look at, too.
 
Briefvoice said:
A few reasons. Because it was seen as the only alternative to a corrupt government run for the benefit of the wealthy in the bad old days, and the shine hasn't worn off. Because crime pays. Because they're willing to sell you anything you want, from slaves to weapons to untaxed goods. Because if you don't "like" the Syndicate they might kill you and your entire family, so best to "like" them, eh?



Because they are slavers, thieves, and murderers who constantly attempt to corrupt and suborn honest government at every level. We've seen lots of reports about officials who turned out to be in the Syndicate's pocket.
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Has all this been confirmed as being canon?

fasquardon
 
Oneiros doesn't formally do that himself directly, very often, but de facto we can treat it as canon because despite doing literally dozens of Master of Orion posts and numerous pieces portraying the reactions of Union officials, he's never moved to contradict any of this.
 
fasquardon said:
Has all this been confirmed as being canon?
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The part about the Syndicate being slavers, thieves, and murderers who have corrupted government at every level is definitely canon, as we've seen them do all those things in Master of Orion reports (and before). I personally find that reason enough for the Union government to hate them.

"Why the people who like them, like them" hasn't been directly canonized, but it fits with the general tone of the game posts.
 
Iron Wolf said:
I should note the Syndicate operating as basically the representative of the Orion people is mostly extrapolating from some stuff in Enterprise. They are antagonists at several points in the show, and are noted for slaving. In another episode, there's a bit of dialogue about how "Orions are slavers!" Now I suppose there could be an Orion government that also slaves, but I took this to mean that the general view is the Syndicate and 'Orions' are so collectively entwined that the galaxy at large views the Syndicate as representing the species.
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I think that the current friendliness towards the Federation is probably something that came about after a Syndicate-dominated government was overthrown between the time of Enterprise and the time of TBG, perhaps violently, but more likely through protests and calls for reform. Or alternately, fractured government of the various worlds united and gave us the Union we see today. What we have now is the Syndicate and their backers who went "okay, fine, we can work in a democracy/union, have your cake, we have our hypercorps...".

Now, this isn't quest canon, but I can't draw the line between Enterprise, TOS, and finally affiliate and full membership any other way. Something had to change.
 
That's pretty much what the people who've been inspiring the TBG portrayal of Orion space have been pushing for. Basically, well within living memory there was a revolution in Orion space. It didn't overthrow the hypercorps entirely, and it certainly didn't overthrow the Syndicate, but it did pave the way for the creation of a democratic Union government.
 
So far it is sounding ever more important that the Federation find ways to boost the legitimacy of the current Orion government then.

Seems like them falling could risk a very real backslide to hypercorp domination (and increased Syndicate parasitism).

fasquardon
 
The flipside is those revolutionaries or descendants who think like them should still be around. Should the Syndicate grab de facto full control of any given world, they could themselves face an uprising. Not necessarily a good thing, but their path to power is even bumpier than the Union's is.

e: In fact, I'm a little surprised we haven't heard about anti-Syndicate militias or protestors clashing with Syndicate supporters. I may have to omake that...
 
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That's what most of us who've been following everything closely think too.

Basically, the Union government is our ally, not our enemy and not an obstruction. Abandoning it dooms our efforts, and acting to uphold it strengthens our efforts.

Which is why it was so important to have a joint response that includes both the Federation and the Union, in reaction to the attack on the Amarki capital. And why I'm so glad we do, now.

SynchronizedWritersBlock said:
The flipside is those revolutionaries or descendants who think like them should still be around. Should the Syndicate grab de facto full control of any given world, they could themselves face an uprising. Not necessarily a good thing, but their path to power is even bumpier than the Union's is.
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The most likely failure mode involves a situation where the Union government loses legitimacy and/or falls into the hands of an opposition party that's willing to tolerate the Syndicate as the price of Orion independence.

Being in a cozy power-sharing arrangement with the Syndicate is practically the default state of Orion politics for the past several centuries, after all. We're very lucky to have an Orion government to work with that isn't eating out of the Syndicate's hand. And anything that replaces that government will probably revert to the default state.

The Syndicate doesn't have to take over any planets as such. It just has to own the people who do take over those planets.
 
SynchronizedWritersBlock said:
The flipside is those revolutionaries or descendants who think like them should still be around. Should the Syndicate grab de facto full control of any given world, they could themselves face an uprising. Not necessarily a good thing, but their path to power is even bumpier than the Union's is.

e: In fact, I'm a little surprised we haven't heard about anti-Syndicate militias or protestors clashing with Syndicate supporters. I may have to omake that...
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The Revolutionaries are still around. The President's chief of staff that died in a (Canonized) bombing killed her master in the bath when the Revolution on Broken Chains started.

Some of the more important figures in the Government also fought in the streets or in the courts.

fasquardon said:
Has all this been confirmed as being canon?

fasquardon
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Oneiros doesn't usually directly state "This is Canon", except for a number of my earlier Omakes and another couple here and there. Usually you can tell if something has become Canon by him using it. The Aerocommandos for instance, or Nash's Entire command staff. Kuznetsova and Usha as well. Penelya Miran (In fact the whole Grey Octorber/Kadek Tor thing was @anon_user 's idea IIRC. Oneiros occasionally asked people for ideas (anon's ship designs for instance) as rewards back before the flood of Omakes made it impossible.

I could try to put together a list of Omakes that are generally the canon we are all working from and Oneiros hasn't directly counter-indicated yet if you wanted?
 
SynchronizedWritersBlock said:
e: In fact, I'm a little surprised we haven't heard about anti-Syndicate militias or protestors clashing with Syndicate supporters. I may have to omake that...
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Protestors, but I expect anyone who wants to form a militia instead gets recruited. There's probably been enough experience with militias being a problem after the fight's over that people avoid letting them form.
 
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