Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
There is a curious irony that according the the creation mythology that the Empire follows humans are the project of two colossal spirits of chaos and order. This makes them special and unique.

Yet to actually get anywhere and ultimately change the world, they need to give up this uniqueness through cultivation.

Rather amusing that the Mother and Father thought the little mud people that moved around without their input was the coolest thing ever.

While on the other side of the perspective humans are quite eager to surrender their autonomy piece by piece to become more like the Mother and Father.

A cycle of parents envying their children and children envying their parents.
 
While on the other side of the perspective humans are quite eager to surrender their autonomy piece by piece to become more like the Mother and Father.

A cycle of parents envying their children and children envying their parents.

That's just the Imperials though. The other cultures have entirely different sorts of transformations they idolize.

...Or does it turn out to be all the same in the end? *spooky Hitchcock noises*
 
That's just the Imperials though. The other cultures have entirely different sorts of transformations they idolize.

...Or does it turn out to be all the same in the end? *spooky Hitchcock noises*
The White Sky cultivation system also requires sacrifice of the self. And the only White-equivalent we know of from not-India we know of was more of an ideal than a person. Again, that sounds like you need to sacrifice part of what makes you a person. I suspect they're all variations on that same theme: power for your humanity. Also, does anyone remember that scene where Sixiang and Ling Qi met the Moon and it was acting weirdly robotic? Then it prepared a test for them because they were trying to reject the Mother's gift i.e. cultivate?
 
There is a curious irony that according the the creation mythology that the Empire follows humans are the project of two colossal spirits of chaos and order. This makes them special and unique.

Yet to actually get anywhere and ultimately change the world, they need to give up this uniqueness through cultivation.

Rather amusing that the Mother and Father thought the little mud people that moved around without their input was the coolest thing ever.

While on the other side of the perspective humans are quite eager to surrender their autonomy piece by piece to become more like the Mother and Father.

A cycle of parents envying their children and children envying their parents.
That's just the Imperials though. The other cultures have entirely different sorts of transformations they idolize.

...Or does it turn out to be all the same in the end? *spooky Hitchcock noises*
Seems universal to me:
Raw meaning pounded mercilessly against their being as a fragment of a fragment of the greater entities attention turned in on them, the command was like a thousand, thousand hooks digging into their core, restraining them. Their response was feeble but strident. [Negation. Cease.]

Their expressed will broke upon their superior like a light breeze upon a fortress wall. [Denial. Trial.] Sixiang's whole being shuddered with the power pressed down upon them. Trial. That word encompassed uncounted years of meaning. Their greater selves were as gate and wall to those humans who chose to throw away the gifts of the [Two] and join their number as spirits. It was a kindness to break their mad ambition before they could destroy their humanity, or failing that, to prepare them for its loss. As the Second Born of [She Who Was] that duty overrode all other concerns. The weight of it crushed Sixiang, stilling even their feeble struggle. They saw their humans pain and fear, but the colour was sour and unpleasant, like excrement smeared across a finely painted canvas. The growing horror and disgust for herself growing in the fragment of Ling Qi's mind was worse.
 
I'm curious what people look for when they decide which cultivation projects to vote for. For example, I've seen Bastion dismissed because it is a "minor upgrade to an existing tech."
But I don't care about that at all. I'm interested in Bastion because it will bring mastery of Melodies of the Spirit Seekers one step closer, and with it an Insight that, given how important dealing with spirits and treating them as people is to Ling Qi, will be a vital building block for her Way.
 
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I'm curious what people look for when they decide which cultivation projects to vote for. For example, I've seen Bastion dismissed because it is a "minor upgrade to an existing tech."
But I don't care about that at all. I'm interested in Bastion because it will bring mastery of Melodies of the Spirit Seekers one step closer, and with it an Insight that, given how important dealing with spirits and treating them as people is to Ling Qi, will be a vital building block for her Way.
TREE


To be more serious a lot of peoples interest in an art has to do with how visible an art is. Melodies of the Spirit Seekers is an unfortunate example of this. It is a very helpful art that doesn't actually get mentioned ever, and people tend to drift towards visible arts that impact scenes. They want to feel like their votes matter, which is completely understandable, and this leads to support arts that don't get screen time getting shafted.
 
TREE


To be more serious a lot of peoples interest in an art has to do with how visible an art is. Melodies of the Spirit Seekers is an unfortunate example of this. It is a very helpful art that doesn't actually get mentioned ever, and people tend to drift towards visible arts that impact scenes. They want to feel like their votes matter, which is completely understandable, and this leads to support arts that don't get screen time getting shafted.
Then MoSS needs to be made more visible in the writing. Because like you mentioned it is very helpful. It's what makes it possible for Ling Qi to pull stuff like impromptu Lake Diplomacy, which the readers love, judging from the reactions I've seen here.
 
Then MoSS needs to be made more visible in the writing.
This is much much easier said then done. There are some sharp limits in regards to writing given the constrictions that Yrs has put on himself. If MoSS gets more time than another art that someone loves gets less time. It's an enormous balancing act that can't be solved simply through demanding it goes away.
 
TREE


To be more serious a lot of peoples interest in an art has to do with how visible an art is. Melodies of the Spirit Seekers is an unfortunate example of this. It is a very helpful art that doesn't actually get mentioned ever, and people tend to drift towards visible arts that impact scenes. They want to feel like their votes matter, which is completely understandable, and this leads to support arts that don't get screen time getting shafted.

Yeah, I understand this, but this is partly because the thread doesn't actually vote for MoSS. With the new system, arts get more screen time and narrative ties. It's been largely successful since T13. For example, LQ's focus on Dream has really grown.


However, it also has a disadvantage. If people don't actually vote for MoSS' projects, then they won't get that screen time and narrative ties. So then it'll start a cycle where people ignore it because we can't show it and then MoSS actually having no screen time.

So if we actually want to develop it and see it, we'll have to pick it.

And we use it every time we talk to spirits. We recently saw it with the beavers. I'm not too sure about the lake too, I'll need to reread. But we actually see it being used a lot.

Plus, I'm pretty sure it'll be very easy to connect the Protection concept to the summit prep, especially if we pick something like the Wang camps. We didn't get it from our insights, so the most probable sources are either our heart demon or TRF (like Void for SNR), and I think it'll be interesting exploring that in relation to Community while we're working towards well, preparing for the summit.

Edit: I'm not sure if this makes sense. I'm too sleep deprived right now.

Edit 2: For arts, for example, BKSD, though cool, was a bit disconnected from Ling Qi, but after we finally picked a project (TREE), we finally connected it to LQ and why Community is important.
 
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I'm curious what people look for when they decide which cultivation projects to vote for. For example, I've seen Bastion dismissed because it is a "minor upgrade to an existing tech."
But I don't care about that at all. I'm interested in Bastion because it will bring mastery of Melodies of the Spirit Seekers one step closer, and with it an Insight that, given how important dealing with spirits and treating them as people is to Ling Qi, will be a vital building block for her Way.

As I see it, there are several reasons why people prefer to develop one project over another. The order of these priorities can vary for the same person over time, but in big strokes the arguments can be summarized as:
  • Immediate usability. Basically, you want to do the project for the tech itself, to get more powerful or varied attacks or to get an specific ability. For example, I want to do Bear God because I want to be able to summon a giant bear for Sixiang to possess. We also did the Vault project so we could better steal things.
  • Narrative resonance. It's when you choose a project because it's theme really fits an Action. The most obvious example is Hidden Scribe+Paying Respects. There has been other cases as well, even if sometimes the resonance is a bit dubious.
  • Concept advancement. If there is a Concept about to level up, people may be compelled to choose an art Project that gives the requiered experience. Learning new Concepts like Void also falls into this category.
  • Gaining Insigths. This is less common because Insights are only gained when completing an art. If there is only one or two projects to finish an art, some people will naturally want to push for it. On the other hand, if people like an art but there is a lot of projects left, there is an argument to steadily do it's Projects to eventually gain it's Insigth.
These reasons aren't exclusive and oftentimes are mixed with each other. Regarding Raising the Bastion, a lot of it is for it's eventual Insight, with Usability being a good part of it and Narrative as justification to pair it with a particular Action.

This is much much easier said then done. There are some sharp limits in regards to writing given the constrictions that Yrs has put on himself. If MoSS gets more time than another art that someone loves gets less time. It's an enormous balancing act that can't be solved simply through demanding it goes away.

Yeah, I understand this, but this is partly because the thread doesn't actually vote for MoSS. With the new system, arts get more screen time and narrative ties. It's been largely successful since T13. For example, LQ's focus on Dream has really grown.

However, it also has a disadvantage. If people don't actually vote for MoSS' projects, then they won't get that screen time and narrative ties. So then it'll start a cycle where people ignore it because we can't show it and then MoSS actually having no screen time.

So if we actually want to develop it and see it, we'll have to pick it.

And we use it every time we talk to spirits. We recently saw it with the beavers. I'm not too sure about the lake too, I'll need to reread. But we actually see it being used a lot.

Plus, I'm pretty sure it'll be very easy to connect the Protection concept to the summit prep, especially if we pick something like the Wang camps. We didn't get it from our insights, so the most probable sources are either our heart demon or TRF (like Void for SNR), and I think it'll be interesting exploring that in relation to Community while we're working towards well, preparing for the summit.

Edit: I'm not sure if this makes sense. I'm too sleep deprived right now.

Edit 2: For arts, for example, BKSD, though cool, was a bit disconnected from Ling Qi, but after we finally picked a project (TREE), we finally connected it to LQ and why Community is important.

Social Arts have a key difference with regular Arts: lack of active, visible techniques.
Unlike combat or exploration, there isn't a distinct moment when you activate the technique. Attempting that results in artificial and stiff conversations. The flow becomes almost mechanical, with unnatural pauses and outcomes that kinda look like brainwashing.
Instead, Social Arts are centered in philosphies about how to deal and relate with other people in a conversation and which negotiation tactics to use. Yrs does a fantastic job integrating Ling Qi's social traits in her dialogue. Throughout all the conversation, you can see how she combines Dreaming Muse's Rapport and Hidden Smile to project sincerity without revealing too much herself at the same time she probes the other party for reactions that could unveil their secrets and true thoughts. All that in an organic way without applying an "external mental influence" (techs) to obtain the desired outcome.
The same applies with Spirit Seeker. Ling Qi understands a spirit core nature and adjust her approach accordingly.

However, this passive, all-encompassing feature of Social Arts also makes it harder to advocate for taking their Projects. Ling Qi isn't going to suddenly become inept when discussing with someone, like unwittingly revealing sensible information, because she has Hidden Smile 4 instead of 5.
Narratively, it also lacks the impact of mastering a new tech and using it for the first time in a dramatic situation. No matter how good Yrs is, he can't feasibly attune Ling Qi's dialogue to reflect that she has improved Dreaming Muse's Rapport from 6 to 7. At most we would get a +5% success chance in a vote. Useful, but underwhelming.
Last I heard, the idea was to "eliminate" Social Arts and turn them entirely into traits. These traits would be improved by successfully applying their underlaying philosophy to an appropriate social clash, instead of through investing into Projects.
I quite like the idea. It doesn't make much sense to Ling Qi to not improve her social skills despite employing them so often and with such great results.

Raising the Bastion is the odd one out, since it's an active technique with direct, tangible effects.
One argument to do Bastion is precisely to remove it and allow the transition of Social Arts into Social Traits.
 
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One big problem with MoSS is that it doesn't feel like there have been any times where a lack of skill with its tools caused problems for us. That's sort of not actually the case, we might have been able to better deal with both Black Sky Yearning and the underground fungus, but those don't really feel like failures.

Combined with how MoSS seems more about removing obstacles rather than improving capabilities, why do we want to improve it beyond mastering it for its own sake?

None of this is to say that Spirit Seekers were weak. We know they stood up to the Xi and beat them back, only falling before a combined assault from the Thousand Lakes, Ebon Rivers, and the Celestial Peaks. However MoSS doesn't reflect that pedigree. We could try to shift it into an Art that does reflect that sort of power but we don't really have room for another full Art in tactically or in our cultivation schedule.
 
One big problem with MoSS is that it doesn't feel like there have been any times where a lack of skill with its tools caused problems for us. That's sort of not actually the case, we might have been able to better deal with both Black Sky Yearning and the underground fungus, but those don't really feel like failures.

Combined with how MoSS seems more about removing obstacles rather than improving capabilities, why do we want to improve it beyond mastering it for its own sake?

None of this is to say that Spirit Seekers were weak. We know they stood up to the Xi and beat them back, only falling before a combined assault from the Thousand Lakes, Ebon Rivers, and the Celestial Peaks. However MoSS doesn't reflect that pedigree. We could try to shift it into an Art that does reflect that sort of power but we don't really have room for another full Art in tactically or in our cultivation schedule.
I disagree. Categorizing arts by looking back and seeing if previous problems could have been better solved with the art's tools seems to be highly reactive and not particularly useful in planning how we will deal with the newer problems we will be facing. Especially when dealing with the more powerful Polar Nation cultivators and even the own spirits around our fief.

We have dragon horses on a nearby mountain. The Frost Moose in a forest near us. We have Snowblossom Lake which we still need to work with and develop a relationship with. Plus whatever disasters will be coming our way in the future. As Ling Qi develops her skills and begins to work with others more on resolving whatever issues pop up with even the three examples above, it would be helpful to have other people along. Even to just make introductions. Yellow or red realm priests can be introduced to the spirits using MoSS without a clash of will to simply suppress the spirit's power.

Another example is the Glacial Prison and the starlight infection that it seems trying to hold back. MoSS would better allow us to work with the spirit without having to fight tooth and nail against it. Something that I believe would be very helpful as fighting the starlight infection is trying enough.

So, looking forward, I see MoSS being a very valuable tool in our kit for the immediate, and not so-immediate, potential problems with our negotiations with the Polar Nations, developing better relations with the powerful spirits in our fief, and assisting the glacial prison.
 
Out -of topics considerations for what we're aiming for as an objective for the summit here. There have been hints of what LQ will try to push for in the summit to solve and answer everyone's concerns: She will want the summit location to become a permanent shared settlement. I think that compromise would be acceptable to everyone. Long-term, I could even see her opening a foreigner's quarter in Snowblossom when it gets City-sized, and I don't think the White Sky would be opposed to mirroring that move, which would be exciting.
 
MoSS does seem cool but by this point I feel like it should go the way of MSS and PMR, and just be folded into our social skills entirely.
If it's only effects we see on screen are it passively informing how we interact with spirits (and honestly half the time it's not even visible there), then it doesn't make sense it having projects discrete enough to fit into our current project system.
 
Just to clarify, MoSS isn't a social art. It's primarily a utility/support art, for damage mitigation and spirit communication. Even if it is a social art, it actually has visibility in the text, compared to MSS and PMR. It happened just recently when we were talking to the beavers, and it was one of my favourite scenes last turn.


"Then I shall follow your lead, Miss Ling," he said.

She nodded and stepped forward, alighting on a trio of clustered stumps from which a single pale green sapling grew. Her hand twitched to grasp her flute, and she frowned when nothing came from her storage ring. It wasn't a matter to worry about, the Songs of the spirit seekers could be sung as easily as they were played.

Her heart still ached in its absence.

Ling Qi straightened her shoulders and begin to sing a high aria of arrival and welcome. The winds billowed, causing the hem of her dress and her heavy mantle to flare filling the air with the rustling of cloth, as her clothes billowed around her and her hair whipped in the wind. She sang and her feet rose from the stumps, frost spread on the grass beneath her, and the sunlight grew dim.

Mist flowed, where her dress ended and it began it would be hard to say, it spilled like water, tendrils of cold night mist billowing out. Wisps of silver light spun and danced, emerging from the folds of her gown, and her blowing hair became a halo of star filled darkness from which the winking faces of the moon peaked now and then. Sixiang's arms wrapped around her shoulder, the muse's wispy form materializing as they joined her song, and spun winking colors into the monochrome starlight of her aura.

And at her side, rising above the horizon she made was a sun rising from a mountain. Marble and gold, his head towered above the straying treetops, a determined visage carved from stone, shoulders that were the slopes of a great peak, standing straight under the weight of the world. Hands that bore no weapons but gleamed with scouring light, boots set far apart to withstand the coming storm. He stared ahead, and beyond her redoubtable, offering no challenge, only a promise. A second figure liquid gold and burning within overlaid him, a second silhouette and visage just slightly offset from his own.

Both of them ceased to hold back their building domains, and just as her song echoed through the air, so too did their presence resound in the world.

The response began with the loud crack, and then another and another, dozens and dozens echoing off in the distance. Like the sound of boat oars striking the water again and again. It echoed int the forest and the mountains beyond, the closest ones fading as those further back took up the sound, making a rolling wave of sound that slowly traveled into the distance.

As it faded away beyond their hearing, Ling Qi finished her song, and with an exhalation of breath shrunk back into herself, becoming once more merely a tall girl in a luxurious gown, and so too did Gan Guangli become just a young man again.

"Well I can't say exactly what those signals meant, but I think we made our impression," she said, stepping down from the stump, despite the lingering frost on the grass, the pale green sapling remained untouched.

"If you say so, Miss Ling," Gan Guangli said. "I can perceive only a great stirring of motion."

This is why I'm so against the idea that we don't use it and that it's not visible. Like, we use it, and it has a lot of nice scenes.

As I see it, there are several reasons why people prefer to develop one project over another. The order of these priorities can vary for the same person over time, but in big strokes the arguments can be summarized as:
  • Immediate usability. Basically, you want to do the project for the tech itself, to get more powerful or varied attacks or to get an specific ability. For example, I want to do Bear God because I want to be able to summon a giant bear for Sixiang to possess. We also did the Vault project so we could better steal things.
  • Narrative resonance. It's when you choose a project because it's theme really fits an Action. The most obvious example is Hidden Scribe+Paying Respects. There has been other cases as well, even if sometimes the resonance is a bit dubious.
  • Concept advancement. If there is a Concept about to level up, people may be compelled to choose an art Project that gives the requiered experience. Learning new Concepts like Void also falls into this category.
  • Gaining Insigths. This is less common because Insights are only gained when completing an art. If there is only one or two projects to finish an art, some people will naturally want to push for it. On the other hand, if people like an art but there is a lot of projects left, there is an argument to steadily do it's Projects to eventually gain it's Insigth.
These reasons aren't exclusive and oftentimes are mixed with each other. Regarding Raising the Bastion, a lot of it is for it's eventual Insight, with Usability being a good part of it and Narrative as justification to pair it with a particular Action.


Instead, Social Arts are centered in philosphies about how to deal and relate with other people in a conversation and which negotiation tactics to use. Yrs does a fantastic job integrating Ling Qi's social traits in her dialogue. Throughout all the conversation, you can see how she combines Dreaming Muse's Rapport and Hidden Smile to project sincerity without revealing too much herself at the same time she probes the other party for reactions that could unveil their secrets and true thoughts. All that in an organic way without applying an "external mental influence" (techs) to obtain the desired outcome.
The same applies with Spirit Seeker. Ling Qi understands a spirit core nature and adjust her approach accordingly.

However, this passive, all-encompassing feature of Social Arts also makes it harder to advocate for taking their Projects. Ling Qi isn't going to suddenly become inept when discussing with someone, like unwittingly revealing sensible information, because she has Hidden Smile 4 instead of 5.
Narratively, it also lacks the impact of mastering a new tech and using it for the first time in a dramatic situation. No matter how good Yrs is, he can't feasibly attune Ling Qi's dialogue to reflect that she has improved Dreaming Muse's Rapport from 6 to 7. At most we would get a +5% success chance in a vote. Useful, but underwhelming.
Last I heard, the idea was to "eliminate" Social Arts and turn them entirely into traits. These traits would be improved by successfully applying their underlaying philosophy to an appropriate social clash, instead of through investing into Projects.
I quite like the idea. It doesn't make much sense to Ling Qi to not improve her social skills despite employing them so often and with such great results.

Raising the Bastion is the odd one out, since it's an active technique with direct, tangible effects.
One argument to do Bastion is precisely to remove it and allow the transition of Social Arts into Social Traits.

Bastion also gives a concept (it finally advances our Protection concept, which is pretty important imo), and I mean, part of the reason why I want to complete MoSS is that its philosophy resonates with Ling Qi's Way and what she hopes to achieve strongly, more so than any other arts. The only exceptions I can think of are LFWT and SSC, which were crafted by Great Spirits for us. Plus, I'm hoping its completion will help bring back some forgotten concepts like Truth.

And I mean, lots of our projects are philosophical. One of the benefits of the new system is that arts can be about philosophy instead of qi pattern mastery. We Are But Ripples was philosophical, but it gave a new concept (Bastion does too). All our previous SSC projects were philosophical, but they gave some pretty good scenes. So I don't really see how that's wrong.

"To rise further, you will need understanding, to study the concepts which underlie our world, or all the power you gather will simply leak away like wine from a holed barrel. Many of the tools and medicines which aided your advance will fade in usefulness, and even in the realm of Arts you will find yourself forced to slow down and deeply contemplate their lessons, rather than simply rushing through their practical exercises."

Ling Qi has been interested in spirit talk for a while now, how they can clearly express themselves, and how that can be applied to connect a community and bring understanding. I'm pretty sure MoSS can tie that into the summit narrative quite nicely.

There was power in the words of spirits, power that she herself could emulate just a little. Power that made words mean what they said. She would call it Sincerity. Or perhaps Truth. If it could be faked, she had never experienced it. That was the only reason she could bring herself to cross the grubby little yard even now. Because the yawning void of the doorway still made the hairs on the back of her neck stand on end.
 
So, looking forward, I see MoSS being a very valuable tool in our kit for the immediate, and not so-immediate, potential problems with our negotiations with the Polar Nations, developing better relations with the powerful spirits in our fief, and assisting the glacial prison.

You never actually established how continuing to cultivate MoSS would be valuable. I agree that there will be plentiful opportunities in our future to peacefully interact with spirits, potentially even in challenging ways but that's beside the point.

Ultimately it falls into the same problem as social Arts: powerful techs will inevitably feel stilted while incrementing a trait is going to feel anemic compared to all the rewards that our combat Arts provide. We've seen that the incidental environmental effects of a White who is incapable of holding back their power is capable of being tolerated at Cyan so... are we expecting to meet a bunch of Prism-ranked spirits with hostile domains to us?

That seems like an unlikely concentration of power and it would still be reasonable to ask if we really need Raising the Bastion or whether we could make do by improving our more general defense.

This is not good because MoSS as an Art is extremely influential for LQ, representing the attitude that has given her many of the advantages she has accrued during her time in the Argent Sect and which will continue to serve her well as she creates a home for herself and her clan. From a character perspective its substantially more important that BKSD but the latter has received far more attention because it has a bunch of cool techs that set the imagination running on how we could take advantage of them.
 
Interesting in that the incentives towards building our way appear, at mid green where a lot of cultivators stall out, to be to lean into combat abilities above others.

I'm thinking that the inability to interface with the rest of the world in a way that isn't immediately violent is one of those gates that keeps people from advancing further. Either you'd fail your breakthrough or you'd be put down after.
 
Interesting in that the incentives towards building our way appear, at mid green where a lot of cultivators stall out, to be to lean into combat abilities above others.
Naah, I think that's more a flaw of the current system than anything in-universe.
Edit: For example, Playful Muse's Rapport and Moonless Saboteur's Smile are both really useful in-universe, but as they are now mechanically, they were never going to win any cultivation project votes so they got kicked off the list.
 
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Interesting in that the incentives towards building our way appear, at mid green where a lot of cultivators stall out, to be to lean into combat abilities above others.

I'm thinking that the inability to interface with the rest of the world in a way that isn't immediately violent is one of those gates that keeps people from advancing further. Either you'd fail your breakthrough or you'd be put down after.

I think it's less about combat abilities and more about the themes and philosophies behind said combat abilities. For example, FFS is an offensive art at its core, but it's about ending the old world and bringing in the new. Again, that might seem as if it falls under combat abilities and immediate violence until you notice that that theme can be applied to social structures and ideologies, and LQ does actually apply them to that.

It's the same with LFWT. It's about a thief stealing from the dragon gods, but on a larger scale, it's about escaping from stagnation/oppression and bringing change and freedom, which again, can be applied to social structures and all since LQ is a social cultivator.

Arts are just lessons encoded in a way that's easy for people to digest. The lessons a cultivator takes are up to them. That's why, in-story, LQ picked an insight about questioning and disrupting the status quo from an art about imposing the Dream's revelry to the waking world.

Edit: Also, we're in the Emerald Seas, where people have to be generalists with Ways pointed in one direction, instead of like, in the Peaks with super specialized Ways and all. I'm sure they have more specialized arts, like one for cooking and all.
 
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