Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
I think experience is a material thing. Its time, and space, and sensory input, interpreted by perception. Needing to eat (as a general condition of being an entity with that requirement) & feeling hungry (a particular condition) aren't the same thing but they're both material.

I think this is the key disagreement then. I regard feeling hungry as the same type of thing as feeling sad- a state that you are experiencing; a description of an experience- rather than just a particular instance of a biological signal of needing to eat.
 
[X] The future lies at the intersection between reality and perception. By Communication, perception is changed; by perception, reality shape is carved, chip by chip.

"Truth and lies are merely notes within the human register"
is a much better phrasing than before though, since these things too have gradients from a certain POV.
 
I think this is the key disagreement then. I regard feeling hungry as the same type of thing as feeling sad- a state that you are experiencing; a description of an experience- rather than just a particular instance of a biological signal of needing to eat.

So is your position that hunger (or any emotion) is simply the description of a particular biological signal or that these two are completely separate? We just feel sadness and that state of experience has no particular connection to an individuals physical state?
 
Rather the physical state is one thing, how that physical state is experienced is something else.
A subjective thing and it's objective mirror are different things, basically.

You could describe the momentum and location of every atom in the body perfectly and it would not describe feeling hungry. It would describe what feeling hungry looks like to an outside observer.
 
Rather the physical state is one thing, how that physical state is experienced is something else.
A subjective thing and it's objective mirror are different things, basically.

You could describe the momentum and location of every atom in the body perfectly and it would not describe feeling hungry. It would describe what feeling hungry looks like to an outside observer.
The concept of Qualia, essentially.
 
Rather the physical state is one thing, how that physical state is experienced is something else.
A subjective thing and it's objective mirror are different things, basically.

You could describe the momentum and location of every atom in the body perfectly and it would not describe feeling hungry. It would describe what feeling hungry looks like to an outside observer.

Ah okay I see where the disagreement is now. I'm taking it all as one unified whole and you're splitting it into the physical conditions & the perception/interpretation of those conditions.

I still think that perception/interpretation is a material phenomenon and it sounds like you don't so that seems like a further point of disagreement but I do understand your position better.
 
If something can punch you in the face it's material as far as I'm concerned, the liminal is more like another dimension of material reality is the way I see it. (For that specific discussion. I'm not making any comment on the matter of qualia.)

Yes, it contains within it things that would not be material in actual real life, but forge/threads works on different physics.
 
[X] The future lies at the intersection between reality and perception. By Communication, perception is changed; by perception, reality shape is carved, chip by chip.
 
Adhoc vote count started by Killer_Whale on Jan 30, 2025 at 1:26 AM, finished with 124 posts and 81 votes.
 
Not gonna lie, I liked the first version of the first option a lot better. If I understand correctly, it's the shift from focus on people's understanding of the world that moves them to action (Truth) to their actions in general (future), but I feel being specific works better here. "Actions in the future" just describes a lot of things, and, perhaps more importantly, they aren't something we can be sure in - we even have an insight to that tune, IIRC - as opposed to someone's perspective that does exist in the present and that Ling Qi can perceive.
 
Sure. Insights related to those concepts are extracted below.

snip

1. Hmm, maybe.

Others - I think it's a bit too much of willing interpretation.

---

Conversely, the "were the shades of Duchess' parents really brought in by Empress and Inexorable Justice, or have we just been made to perceive them?" should be a lively theological discussion between higher tiers of Emerald Sea clergy. :V

---

Ling Qi: "...So, as I was saying, Yao the Fisher's Law had not being affected in a ny true way. The parent's shades did not enter the world of living truly - it was our perception that had been changed to perceive them as being there. Otherwise, nothing really changed in comparison to scenario where we would not perceive them."

Bai Meizhen: "Very neat, Ling Qi. But who drank the wine offered, then? I distinctly remember the wine being in the cups first and it disappearing later. Do enlighten me."

Ling QI: "You are right Meizhen, it IS very neat. It binds back with that Shu Ding-ge thought experiment - when the cups had been demonstrated to us at first it had not yet be decided if the wine was truly in them, and when we observed the parents' shades the choice between "wine is in cups" and "cups are empty" worlds had been made! The timeline with wine-filled cups collapsed and we were presented with the cups that had been empty all along!"

Bai Meizhen: "Ling Qi. Ling. Qi."

Ling Qi: "...it's a quantum foam extrapolated to the macroworld really, and interaction between different Spirits Laws had been..."

Bai Meizhen: "Ling Qi. "Timeline collapse", really? Are you one of those "Zizians" I keep hearing about lately? I don't want to learn that you've sword-stabbed some landlord person in the chariot wagon park. Should I introduce you to some defense lawyers? Or do I need to make you swallow some wasting potion, so you would be less full of impurities?"

Ling Qi: "...Rats in the walls, Meizhen! It was rats in the walls! FATHER, FATHER! YOG SOTHOTH!"

---

It had come to her knowledge, Ling Qi said, that a foolish and wicked rumour had been circulated at the time of old man Shen's blankets' removal. Some of us had noticed that the winter had came, and had actually jumped to the conclusion that old man Shen would freeze to his death due to the material condition of cold. It was almost unbelievable, said Ling Qi, that any intelligent being could be so stupid. Surely, she cried indignantly, whisking her dress-train and skipping from side to side, surely they knew their friend Ling Qi better than that? But the explanation was really very simple. As the Dreaming way is teaching us, the living world's reality is downstream of our perception of it. As truth and lies are warp and weft of reality, it is our popular consensus that winter is cold and that the cold is actively harmful to the human well-being. Isn't she, Ling Qi, cold and capable of being comfortable it it? Old man Shen similarly surpassed the conceptual limitations of being blanketless and had already achieved the Enlightement.

"'Forward, friends!' he declared in his last earth-bound moments. 'Forward in the name of the anti-Hui Rebellion. Long live Emerald Seas! Long live Duchess Cai! Cai is always right.' Those were his very last words, friends."

Su Ling: "That what I've meant when I said that you've taken to those noble ways way to quickly and easily"

Ling Qi: "Do not, my friends, become addicted to blankets. They will take hold of you, and you will resent their absence."

LQ came from the streets, from survival with less, and that perspective is invaluable for serving as the 'Immortal of Communication' she's set herself up to be. Unique perspectives, beget Unique ideas, and LQ is most certainly not boring.

Yeah, I mean it's easy to say that lies and truth do not matter that much in the end, as the reality is descended from our perception, and that the orator could change that perception and, therefore, that reality. However Ling Qi was a street rat and learned hard way that material reality matters despite best rhetorical efforts. Yes, "we live in sosciety, that is, in intersubjective lifeworld" and it often were cruel intentions of other people around Ling Qi that produced a lot of harm and suffering. And yet the world had been real and it was cold that would harm that old man Shen when Ling Qi took his blankets, not just her intent. If she took those blankets away with nice justification and made old man Shen himself accept it, he would still be cold and unsheltered in winter.

So like, up to this point there is this street rat strand inside the Ling Qi that can whisper to her when the king is naked and when she is full of s impurities. I like all the Dreaming Way arc, and I get that it is a not!Buddhism in large part. And yet I think Ling Qi would not abandon the material concerns altogether and decide that the matter is illusion or something like that. She tends to take a view of mortals and lower realms over the loftier noble aesthetics, for example

---

CRX: "I am unimpressed, Ling Qi. I like my Excel spreadsheets not because of the neatness of the formations inside them as an abstraction, even if those please me aesthetically. Their goal is betterment of life of my subjects, an unstoppable move to further and further improvements. The spreadsheets is an instrument to move towards that goal, and that is Excel's true value."
 
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-this insight is meant to lean more toward materialism as was correctly speculated. It is concerned primarily with the intersection where understanding allows and pushes the alteration of material reality


Utility. Utility. Utility. All else is distraction, the indulgence of the victorious. All which failed to grant material advantage were chains.

Finally, some fuel for the sovreign spark we've been keeping inside us.
 
However Ling Qi was a street rat and learned hard way that material reality matters despite best rhetorical efforts.

You don't get to choose what you percieve any more than you get to choose material reality though. It's not like you can lie away feeling rejected any more than you can lie away feeling hungry or cold.

Rather, the way you set this up reads more like a failure of "communication can change feeling hungry" (communication chipping away at reality) than a failure of "because it's only perception, it isn't real and I can reject it".

Yes, "we live in sosciety, that is, in intersubjective lifeworld" and it often were cruel intentions of other people around Ling Qi that produced a lot of harm and suffering.

There was nothing about reality or truth that put Ling Qi on the street. She was suffering because her reality flowed from perceptions, not the reverse.

She ran away from her mom because she percieved herself as being groomed rather than protected. Her mom was tossed out of the noble's household because everyone percieved her mom as deserving punishment for choosing to sleep with Ling Qi's dad.
 
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[X] Truth and lies are merely notes within the human register, from them is born perception, from perception descends reality, an orator must wield words as carefully as a master wields their blade.
 
There was nothing about reality or truth that put Ling Qi on the street. She was suffering because her reality flowed from perceptions, not the reverse.

She ran away from her mom because she percieved herself as being groomed rather than protected. Her mom was tossed out of the noble's household because everyone percieved her mom as deserving punishment for choosing to sleep with Ling Qi's dad.

Choices and consequenses, causes and effects, innit :V (including the ones that happened while Ling Qi or Ling Qingge were not present to observe the event themselves).

I was refering to the LQs experiences on the streets themselves though - deprivations and violence, and her being less likely to be frivoluos about such things.

You don't get to choose what you percieve any more than you get to choose material reality though. It's not like you can lie away feeling rejected any more than you can lie away feeling hungry or cold.

Well, it should be possible to affect the neurons that send those or other signals. It could be possible to take funny pills or whatnot (moreso in fantasy magical setting). It just would not take away the outside condition that was causing the feeling of cold - and that feeling was warning signal from LQs body that more of this cold exposгre could lead to bad consequences for that said body.

Rather, the way you set this up reads more like a failure of "communication can change feeling hungry" (communication chipping away at reality)

Yeah nah, I don't think that insight refers to something that literal. "Communication between someones could lead someone to share food", maybe. "Commmunication with/by Renxiang could lead to food being more accessible for a larger amount of people", and so on.
 
[X] Truth and lies are merely notes within the human register, from them is born perception, from perception descends reality, an orator must wield words as carefully as a master wields their blade.

No real opinion, so I'll just vote for the currently losing one to even it a bit
 
[X] Truth and lies are merely notes within the human register, from them is born perception, from perception descends reality, an orator must wield words as carefully as a master wields their blade.
 
[X] Truth and lies are merely notes within the human register, from them is born perception, from perception descends reality, an orator must wield words as carefully as a master wields their blade.

I'll stop voting for versions of this option when people stop posting the most naïve possible defenses of materialism like they're unassailable proofs.
 
[X] The future lies at the intersection between reality and perception. By Communication, perception is changed; by perception, reality shape is carved, chip by chip.
 
[X] Truth and lies are merely notes within the human register, from them is born perception, from perception descends reality, an orator must wield words as carefully as a master wields their blade.
 
[X] Truth and lies are merely notes within the human register, from them is born perception, from perception descends reality, an orator must wield words as carefully as a master wields their blade.
 
As to the wind 3:Taraxcum
@yrsillar - omake for the omake throne

As the Wind 3: Taraxacum

Dear Junior Sister,


I am being nagged horrendously to tell you to take better care of yourself, with threats of high-collared shirts if it wasn't the first thing I said. Your senior brother worries terribly and begs me to tell you to take more care in your physical form. You are not yet wholly spiritual. Brace yourself for quite a lot of benevolent fussing and feel free to smack him if he gets too much.


I can say that all your senior brothers are very concerned for you, and also immensely proud. Yes, I have spoken to Liao Zhu. He is doing well, and he says he will find you some time during the upcoming conflict for "A Talk". Those of us in the inner section who have been your tutors have made an peculiar circle of ourselves, if simply by coincidence.


As an aside, how did you somehow gain all the most attractive male inner section members as your tutors? Looking around at the group, there seems to be a theme. If I didn't know better how the system worked, I would say you chose them based on appearance instead of of skill.


You don't ask easy questions, Junior Sister. I have only one example, and I knew what I wanted very early. I was just waiting for him.


Your choices will likely be more restricted than my own, due to your position. Wealth, position, clan ties, how those ties affect your relationship with your lady and how they benefit. But you asked about feelings, not all that. Knowing you, you won't be able to stop thinking about those things, weighing and calculating. I am telling you now, stop. For the duration of this letter, I am your elder sister and I am giving you advice on feelings. So feel.


Start by choosing a feeling, the best feeling in the world for you. Wherever you are most comfortable, or the most safe, or the most peaceful or joyous. For me, it's warm wind, and late afternoon sun, and the smell of growing things. That's what you are looking for. Ignore romance for a moment and simply find that feeling. Now, who feels the most like that?


Next, see the most precious things to you. Whatever those things are, family or skills or art or material things. Your person will not desire to take those things from you, but will delight in your love of them. They will join you in valuing those things you value, and protect them. Who are you willing to share those precious things with?


Now, a hard question. The suitor has broken something valuable. Not irreparable, but precious anyway. Maybe if no monetary value, but the breaking injured and disappointed you. You are now upset with them. Or perhaps you have broken something of theirs. Either way, there is a rift between you now. How easy is it to repair the rift? And are you very sure it is fixed? How much effort are you willing to spend to fix it?


Finally, imagine a group of your suitors. They cannot see you and there are no negative side effects to this. Who do your eyes find first? If one was missing from the group, who would you notice was gone first? Your mind lingers on them, but you barely notice until a flash of color or song in a market reminds you they aren't there. Whose presence do you reach for when they're not there?


I have tried to break down for your adorably analytical mind what was instinct for me. Perhaps a better exercise might be to ask you to write a song for each, and see which one you enjoyed writing, enjoy playing, the most. Which effort do you enjoy spending the most time on? Which work brings you joy? You are a very technical artist, so I know that writing from the heart does not come easily. No one needs hear these songs but play them anyway. Maybe one day, I can hear you play one, if only so that you know which one your heart would have chosen, if the choice ends up impossible.


I will be expecting you for tea so I can hear all the details you can share on everything that has happened.


Your Senior Sister,

Bian Ya
 
[X] Truth and lies are merely notes within the human register, from them is born perception, from perception descends reality, an orator must wield words as carefully as a master wields their blade.
 
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