Starfleet Design Bureau

[Mechanis]

Is that not the whole point of choosing this ship option? To have it be able to do other things instead of just doing science?

Click to shrink...

The point of doing a big cruiser was to have a big cruiser that could stand on the battle line while also Doing Science Good when the Federation isn't at war. Unfortunately a bunch of people voted not to do that and determinedly shuffled it into a rearline only role, so now we're at the point where we should just make a Science Palace and take the hit. Maybe we can do a tactical/engineering cruiser next to *actually* meet that part of the design brief that we willfully ignored after picking the option that requires it rather than the one that doesn't, but it'll not get the same numbers the Actually Capable Galileo would have given us in hulls, so eh.

 

[Skippy]

The dedicated engineering module might actually be better if we're trying to hit a "C" in Engineering, it's just painful not to get the computer core.

Again, this is where someone should actually ask Sayle what the numerical breakpoints are to hit an A, B, C, and so on for Science and Engineering. Then we could try and plan intelligently to hit the targets. But I tried asking for evidence to make a reasoned choice last time, so I'm not going to the effort again.

It has a B- in tactical, it's fairly dangerous for what it is. Our design goal was a well-armed light cruiser focused on science, and we're most of the way there.

Click to shrink...

No, we were asked for an effective combatant, and have sacrificed a huge amount of that potential capability for no significant gain other than a single module slot on a ship that will have lots of modules.

Let's not rewrite the past here, what's done is done, but we aren't going to make this be something other than what it is.

The weapons sacrifice that was made means that we've basically just forever relegated this to never seeing combat against peer foes, so my thought to salvage the design is to basically make it versatile at everything else, which would free up ships-with-guns to actually do things in most cases.

Click to shrink...

Yeah, that's probably the best path forward now.

 

[Cursix]

All science now, probably at least one habitation module next turn, leaving room for at least another engineering pick. But most of our ships go for workshop & cargo space, we don't need to do it again at the cost of science when this is primarily a science ship.

 

[Derpmind]

No, we were asked for an effective combatant, and have sacrificed a huge amount of that potential capability for no significant gain other than a single module slot on a ship that will have lots of modules.

Let's not rewrite the past here, what's done is done, but we aren't going to make this be something other than what it is.

Click to shrink...

Can we please move on already?

 

[Tolack]

[ ] 0: Cargo Bay Expansion (+1 Engineering, 3 Cargo -> 6 Cargo)
[ ] 0: Small Arboretum (+2 Science)

[ ] 1: Secondary Computer Core (+2 Science, Advanced Computing)
[ ] 1: Workshop (+2 Engineering, Fabrication)

[ ] 2: Dilithium Analysis (+1 Science, Dilithium Prospecting)
[ ] 2: Geosciences (+2 Science)

I'm think we either go Science to the Moon with Arboretum, Computer Core and Dilithium, or Actual Engineering Bay with Cargo, Workshop, and Dilithium.

Cargo Bay would help make these ships viable for a long time as secure bulk transports. Workshop is useful in so many different ways, and has synergies with Cargo Bay bringing the bulk resources. Unless one of our previous science ships has Dilithium Analysis, I think we should take the option that helps Starfleet find more strategic resource locations.

 

[LunaMoth]

We are hitting the design goal pretty well already with an A- in cost and respectable scores in other places, this is mostly a vote to decide what extra things we want to tack on I think.

Dilithium seems like its pretty necessary.

Geosciences probably has a hidden synergy with the Dilthium option.

The secondary computer lets us have a backup if the experimental computer goes HAL 9000 or just breaks.

the workshop is a workshop pretty generically useful.

Same thing with the cargo bay expansion.

The small arboretum probably helps crew moral, and helps the ship store flora samples from alien worlds.

 

[Tank man]

I think if we're going to give this thing a higher engineering rating than a Cygnus, we might as well simply replace the Cygnus while we're at it, so we would need to add fabrication in addition to cargo. I'd prefer focusing this ship on maximum science and replacing the Cygnus with something more dedicated, though.

Click to shrink...

If it can do so, it might be produced at a higher number than was originally intended, perhaps even serving as a 1:1 replacement of the Cygnus too owing to added utility.

The ship has a base science of 2, it will definitely get another 2 out of the secondary computer core (and iirc might even get another from that owing to synergy for the saucer modules) and hopefully another 1 for the dilithium prospecting module.
That will see it was 5 basic science, and assuming at least three modules in the saucer that correspond to those found in the Curiosity (and assuming they don't have more science rating due to general advances, the new computer system and the sheer space available) we will get another 6 from it.

This means that the ship could come out having 11 science, 1 more than the Sagar.

Assumptions? Yes, but I'd say rather well founded ones.

 

[Portec]

@Sayle
Have you already decided how many utility slots the saucer section will have?
And to be honest I would have prefered a vote on all utility positions as one...

 

[KleverKil'Vanya]

I know the torpedo vote got somewhat heated, but simply declaring "No torpedos means no service life" is counterproductive. The Curiosity, our previous science cruiser and already worse than this ship by every metric, is at 40 years of active service life right now with another 20 to come. There's no reason to assume Galileo can't also manage 60 years of service (and 7 design projects on our end until the replacement was designed, to boot).

Click to shrink...

I mean the fact that Starfleet specifically called out that the previous one couldn't keep up with just phasers and then we just made the same damn thing just bigger, means we will likely have to replace it in 2-3 turns with an actual useful line combatant, since we didn't this time.

Before anyone comes back with the B- rating, ya'll were the ones screeching it was purely a 'back line ship' so it does not fulfill a frontline need as is.

 

[landcollector]

@Sayle
Have you already decided how many utility slots the saucer section will have?
And to be honest I would have prefered a vote on all utility positions as one...

Click to shrink...

Probably best for everyone's sanity, not just the QM's, that it's split up. Trying to come to any sort of consensus on 10-12 things at once would be a nightmare nearly beyond imagination.

 

[Fouredged Sword]

The point of doing a big cruiser was to have a big cruiser that could stand on the battle line while also Doing Science Good when the Federation isn't at war. Unfortunately a bunch of people voted not to do that and determinedly shuffled it into a rearline only role, so now we're at the point where we should just make a Science Palace and take the hit. Maybe we can do a tactical/engineering cruiser next to *actually* meet that part of the design brief that we willfully ignored after picking the option that requires it rather than the one that doesn't, but it'll not get the same numbers the Actually Capable Galileo would have given us in hulls, so eh.

Click to shrink...

No. It would have been nice if we gave Starfleet a ship that could, but what they actually asked for was a ship capable of second line duty. Standing on the front line was never a requirement. This ship is capable of second line duty and it's tactical score reflects that Starfleet isn't disappointed in the armaments we went with.

 

[Tank man]

@Sayle
Have you already decided how many utility slots the saucer section will have?
And to be honest I would have prefered a vote on all utility positions as one...

Click to shrink...

Not Sayle, but assuming it's anything like the Sagar (which literally being the same saucer is a good possibility) then we'll likely get 4, potentially 5 since there's no torpedo system at the bottom of it either.

Given the last vote we had with as many options as this would net, it's probably better for both the QM and the thread itself that this was split.

Edit:
As can be seen here.

Click to shrink...

 

[Mechanis]

Honestly at this point we should just make it a Science Palace and when the Klingons inevitably start laughing at it those of us who tried to get a cheap light cruiser rather than a gianter Curiosity can go "I told you so" and "hey you know how Starfleet Command's asking us for a tactical cruiser again, we could have done that a while ago and didn't."

 

[Fouredged Sword]

Yeah, splitting the hulls into different votes is likely a good idea. Vote overload is a thing.

 

[LunaMoth]

In all honesty I love how we are playing this almost exactly like I imagine Starfleet would, Starfleets first priority is never really shown to be combat and its something I like about the setting. The fact that we hemmed and hawed over the weapons vote so much just feels show accurate tbh.

 

[Lohjak]

I know the torpedo vote got somewhat heated, but simply declaring "No torpedos means no service life" is counterproductive. The Curiosity, our previous science cruiser and already worse than this ship by every metric, is at 40 years of active service life right now with another 20 to come. There's no reason to assume Galileo can't also manage 60 years of service (and 7 design projects on our end until the replacement was designed, to boot).

Click to shrink...

Yeah, I think people are forgetting that the design goal was "decently armed", which we should comfortably meet with a 7/11 tactical. We could've had 10/11, but at that point it's well beyond a secondary capability.

I mean the fact that Starfleet specifically called out that the previous one couldn't keep up with just phasers and then we just made the same damn thing just bigger, means we will likely have to replace it in 2-3 turns with an actual useful line combatant, since we didn't this time.

Before anyone comes back with the B- rating, ya'll were the ones screeching it was purely a 'back line ship' so it does not fulfill a frontline need as is.

Click to shrink...

This mounts a maximum phaser armament, which is pretty good for a ship that isn't meant to be dueling enemy capitals. If you actually look at the curiosity, it mounts two phasers. That is, the Curiosity has the same armament as the Constable. They're not remotely comparable.

We're replacing the Curiosity with this, so an 8 science to beat that, if we can get 8+ science and 5+ engineering we might be able to replace both the Cygnus and Curiosity.

Click to shrink...

If it can do so, it might be produced at a higher number than was originally intended, perhaps even serving as a 1:1 replacement of the Cygnus too owing to added utility.

The ship has a base science of 2, it will definitely get another 2 out of the secondary computer core (and iirc might even get another from that owing to synergy for the saucer modules) and hopefully another 1 for the dilithium prospecting module.
That will see it was 5 basic science, and assuming at least three modules in the saucer that correspond to those found in the Curiosity (and assuming they don't have more science rating due to general advances, the new computer system and the sheer space available) we will get another 6 from it.

This means that the ship could come out having 11 science, 1 more than the Sagar.

Assumptions? Yes, but I'd say rather well founded ones.

Click to shrink...

Do we want to replace the Cygnus with this, though? The Sagarmatha is still solid, but it is starting to show its age. We do probably want an actual heavy warship at some point in the near future, and if this replaces the Cygnus as well it sounds like we're probably doing a diplomatic vessel next. Which we may not want to double as a heavy cruiser.

IMO it would be better to hard focus this on science, as it already has a secondary capability as a light patrol/screening cruiser, and then build a Cygnus replacement to serve as a general utility/heavy cruiser.

 

[landcollector]

No. It would have been nice if we gave Starfleet a ship that could, but what they actually asked for was a ship capable of second line duty. Standing on the front line was never a requirement. This ship is capable of second line duty and it's tactical score reflects that Starfleet isn't disappointed in the armaments we went with.

Click to shrink...

...Now I sort of want to see an alternate SDB timeline where we went with just 2 Type2s and submitted the design for review. Reactions from Starfleet might be either Stupefied "...I'm sorry, but wtf is this?" or more...excitable responses,

 

[KNakamura]

In all honesty I love how we are playing this almost exactly like I imagine Starfleet would, Starfleets first priority is never really shown to be combat and its something I like about the setting. The fact that we hemmed and hawed over the weapons vote so much just feels show accurate tbh.

Click to shrink...

It's.. really not. Only a few seasons of TNG eschew combat. Starfleet prefers not to rely on combat, but -

Anyway,
I think we should go for dilithium, computer core and arboretum. I'm torn on the last, though.

 

[Skippy]

Can we please move on already?

Click to shrink...

It would be a good idea at this point, but this would require that everyone actually move on, when instead we see a number of voters continuing to justify the six phaser vote just above my post.

If you want people to stop, I would suggest asking @Sayle to make a more forceful directive for them to stop.

 

[Hot co co]

So I have been rereading.. did we ever get around to replacing the Zheng He for cargo?

 

[LunaMoth]

It's.. really not. Only a few seasons of TNG eschew combat. Starfleet prefers not to rely on combat, but -

Anyway,
I think we should go for dilithium, computer core and arboretum. I'm torn on the last, though.

Click to shrink...

It's more like starfleet doesn't go "kill those xeno-scum", heavily arm ourselves with a fuck-ton of weapons.

 

[Skippy]

So I have been rereading.. did we ever get around to replacing the Zheng He for cargo?

Click to shrink...

No, but there are lots of non-Starfleet cargo ships which can do that job much more cheaply.

Cargo capacity for starships can be useful, but mostly when it's something urgent or an emergency situation, since starships are faster than most regular transports, have a bunch of specialists on board, can protect themselves, etc..

 

[Theunderbolt]

[ ] 0: Cargo Bay Expansion (+1 Engineering, 3 Cargo -> 6 Cargo)
[ ] 1: Workshop (+2 Engineering, Fabrication)
[ ] 2: Dilithium Analysis (+1 Science, Dilithium Prospecting)

Hmm
Seems science enough for me.

 

[Tank man]

So I have been rereading.. did we ever get around to replacing the Zheng He for cargo?

Click to shrink...

Nope. That's one design that's never really come up for replacement, technically the Cygnus fills that role I guess, but it'd be pretty cool to come up with a new design that can be produced for both Starfleet and the Federation government/its departments to use.

 

[Mechanis]

In all honesty I love how we are playing this almost exactly like I imagine Starfleet would, Starfleets first priority is never really shown to be combat and its something I like about the setting. The fact that we hemmed and hawed over the weapons vote so much just feels show accurate tbh.

Click to shrink...

I mean, there wasn't much hemming or hawing

Those of us who actually read the design brief fully tried to get Starfleet the ship it actually asking for, and a bunch of people who didn't or saw the word "cost" and immediately turned their brains off shouted us down; design by committee at its finest.

Anyway, I just really don't see any point in giving this any serious extra capabilities that aren't science related; if we're not building a proper cruiser we can at least build a floating lab complex that can show up, turn the local star into a torus while curing cancer and spotting two novel Dilithium deposits and inventing a better shipboard coffeemaker before lunch.