Strunkriidiisk
THE LEGEND
- Location
- Canada
- Pronouns
- He/Him
The point is that our 'just' explorer ships are functionally a whole battleship with a bunch of labs and extra bits bolted on, so @Bedpotato is being more than a little disingenuous.
Linked contents
- Location
- California
- Pronouns
- He/Him
AHHH! The dead walk! The dead walk!
My assesment of things tells me that we're probably best off going for a Cygnus replacement - even if it's marginal as a scientific and utility upgrade over the Cygnus, the tactical systems need a substantial overhaul and the warp system is now a development generation out of date in terms of characteristics (a Cygnus derivative design using the Type 3 nacelles could get up to Warp 5.6 for efficient cruise and a maximum cruise of Warp 6.4 - which would be a hell of a party trick for a utility ship meant to go from station to station getting stuff done along the way.
EDIT: as for the argument about the Sagarmatha's being potentially unsuitable as battleships, it's worth noting they more or less match the Thunderchild-class for damage output and coverage while being substantially more durable, and the Warspite (a Thunderchild class ship on her way to be decommissioned) was tactically relevant, at least in the early phase of the war, sufficient to allow her to survive to be decommissioned.
EDIT: as for the argument about the Sagarmatha's being potentially unsuitable as battleships, it's worth noting they more or less match the Thunderchild-class for damage output and coverage while being substantially more durable, and the Warspite (a Thunderchild class ship on her way to be decommissioned) was tactically relevant, at least in the early phase of the war, sufficient to allow her to survive to be decommissioned.
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StriderInCosmos
Wanderer in the Worldsea
- Location
- Somewhere in... Terminal Dogma? I think?
I'm fully aware of that, it's just that there's been talk more than a few times in this thread that I've seen centered around 'well, we made X-class in the previous quest, therefore we already know this build/choice or another's efficacy', which as I recall, was largely based on the 'canon' timeline that quest was an AU of. And now we're likely in a branching timeline from that AU... well, this is why I rarely bother with time travel.
SaltyWaffles
I am dissapoint, son
- Pronouns
- He/Him
@Sayle If the Kzinti could just teleport a boarding party onto our ship, why did they bother with that instead of teleporting a nuke aboard? Yes, taking a prize and all that, but when they're facing such a tough enemy force you'd think they'd at least destroy one of the enemy first before trying to get greedy with the other.
And since when is beaming aboard a maneuvering, active warship possible? Even if it requires shields to be down first (which wasn't made clear in the update), the standard procedure for space warfare in such a reality is to get shields down first, then beam aboard nukes to finish them off or cripple them.
And since when is beaming aboard a maneuvering, active warship possible? Even if it requires shields to be down first (which wasn't made clear in the update), the standard procedure for space warfare in such a reality is to get shields down first, then beam aboard nukes to finish them off or cripple them.
- Location
- California
- Pronouns
- He/Him
It is made clear.
Also I don't know what you mean about standard procedure, because in Star Trek boarding once the shields are down is way more common than beaming a bomb over.
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Strunkriidiisk
THE LEGEND
- Location
- Canada
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Not a mil-fi story.
Trip lives!
... don't know if that came up before and I just missed it, but yes!
Also, Kzin be crazy. Two full rolls smashing themselves up... yikes. Wouldn't want to be on those ships.
The crash couches... maybe we should have something like that be a battle deploy option, or just make it a modification to existing system design.
One of my biggest peeves with TNG onward is that they had people expected to maintain their station while standing. That's a horrible idea in a spaceship, especially those as depicted in Star Trek. There's good reasons to get people off their feet and securely buckled in.
grimely
Twink Death Sufferer
The answer to all of your questions is that this is a Star Trek quest.
Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
Because that's not Glorious, and most of the belligerent species out there want Glory.
"Knock down shields + Teleport Nuke on board = Win" is only a viable plan if you're the fucking Daleks or something, where your objective is Extermination without any other agendas.
It's also really hard to sue for peace if you start losing when your strategy is one that leaves no survivors behind, not even ones to interrogate.
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bobnik
Memetic Warfare Specialist.
In all honesty, the Kzin society was not particularly sane by human standards until it got a spanking from humanity/Federation. Those two Kzin were looking to get names instead of descriptors, and breeding rights, as females are property. Kzin of this period are also much, much closer to their primal instincts than humans are.
As for the transport thing, so far as I know the transporters of the time can handle any relative sublight vector - even a changing one. They more or less need to, to work while orbiting.
The Federation-Kzin War
Chapter 5: The Selachii and the Palace Coup.
The Selachii-class first launched in 2190, claiming the dubious honor of being the first pure-combat ship built since the formation of the Federation in 2161. As an advancement over the Skate-class which had been so quickly designed and produced during the Earth-Romulan War it was a significant improvement in both strategic and tactical terms, with a significantly greater range that allowed it to accompany deployments with its own supplies versus the Skate's necessary reliance on other starships for antimatter during excursions away from base.
But while the Skate had been cheaply produced and suffered alarmingly high casualties, the Selachii was a far more durable ship with powerful shields to protect it. The small and vulnerable vessels produced by Earth had been entirely eclipsed by the designs which were now possible with the pooled knowledge of the Federation's member worlds. It was the beginning of the steady mass-inflation of starships as every species in local space was subjected to the pressures of increasingly advancing technological knowledge and industrial capability that required more space to mount new systems and more energy to use. In the span of fifty years the average mass of a starship with the same mission profile had tripled, an increase that would rarely be matched over the next three centuries.
The Selachii (commonly known as the 'Shark-class') was initially ordered in a tranche of ten vessels over five years, but this would soon be expanded due to circumstances beyond Starfleet's control. In the April of 2192 the palace intrigues on Kzinhome reached their apex as Hragg-Highest and Nig-Highest launched their long-conspired but poorly hidden purge of House Ritt. This failed in resounding fashion, not simply because of the disorganization of the assault once the outer defenses were breached that allowed defending Kzin to diffuse their advantage in numbers, but also because the inner sanctum was bristling with automated defenses which had been covertly installed by the Royal Jodoki over the past year. The attempt was nonetheless catastrophically public, as was the Highest-of-Kzin's retaliation for the attempt. In the span of a week, Houses Hragg and Nig were rendered utterly extinct by both the direct reprisal of the alien Jannisaries that had prompted the initial dissatisfaction with House Ritt, but also subordinate houses turning on them from within their own compounds.
Confidence in the ruling house had nonetheless been seriously damaged by the attempt. The Highest-of-Kzin judged that if the divinely-appointed rule of House Ritt was to be unquestioned even after this shameful event, then their dominance must be proven in equally conclusive fashion. Just two weeks after the palace assault, the Highest-of-Kzin sent forth all the young Heroes out into the black - their target? The overweening Federation, a feeble collective of prey and grass-eaters who would make a fine release valve for internal tensions. Kzin craft ranging from barely-armed runabouts to battleships surged over the border, striking twelve Federation colonies within the first two months. The majority of Starfleet was promptly redeployed towards the conflict zone, relying on member fleets to take up some of its usual duties, but this consolidation and preparation for a counter-offensive would not be entirely complete until the spring of 2193. In the intervening six months, a scattering of vessels judged able to directly engage Kzin ships and close enough to assist were diverted to at-risk worlds in the area. These were the explorers Olympus, Kilimanjaro, Sagarmatha, Sinai, and Aoraki; the dreadnought Warspite which had fortuitously been on a goodwill tour combined with developmental support to the outer colonies before her decommissioning; and the paired frigates Tiger and Hammerhead.
The first engagement with Kzin forces was on July 25th, over the colony of New Providence. The Tiger and Hammerhead had only arrived on-station four days prior, and on detecting the Kzin approach had redeployed in the path of the oncoming forces. The Kzin attack consisted of half-dozen runabouts racing each other to reach the planet first, as well as a well-armed Kzin interceptor running crechemaster on the lightly-armed ships. While two of the ships broke off for the colony and proceeded to land on the outskirts, the interceptor and the four runabouts directly engaged the Tiger and Hammerhead.
The initial exchange did not go well for Starfleet - a withering barrage of disruptor bolts from the overgunned interceptor took a heavy toll on the Hammerhead's shields, and while their return phasers struck true the interceptor avoided three of the incoming four torpedoes with a 720 degree roll to starboard. This was the first demonstration that mass torpedo fire would have degraded effectiveness against the Kzinti sub-capitals save at close range, and rendered last-generation photonics practically useless against smaller vessels.
Fire concentrated on the Hammerhead as the groups broke through each other's lines, and as the two Selachii came about for another pass the interceptor pivoted on its axis using maneuvering rockets and fired again, breaking through the Hammerhead's shields. Two Kzinti then abandoned one of the smaller runabouts and beamed into the Hammerhead's aft lounge. Their physiology prevented them from being able to comfortably use the doorways, but managed to enter the main corridor by the time the onboard security team assembled and intercepted them. Their resistance to the stunning effect of the phaser allowed them to advance to close-quarters, resulting in two fatalities and several critical injuries before they were neutralized.
The Tiger took point on the second attack run, while the Hammerhead took shelter in her shadow. The first exchange of fire broke through the interceptor's shields, and when the Tiger passed by she launched her torpedoes directly into the forward hull at point-blank range, causing a secondary explosion which gutted the remainder of the ship. The smaller vessels were then mopped up by the two Selachii using a reversed circle maneuver, each targeting the other's pursuing runabouts, during which the Hammerhead took minor hull strikes that caused only superficial damage.
With the orbital battle concluded, security teams and spare crew then beamed down to the colony to intercept a half-dozen Kzinti who had entered the colony in search of the colonists. Their two runabouts were claimed intact, which produced interesting but ultimately only marginally useful information regarding Kzinti construction and social behavior.
Examination of the wreckage of the Kzinti interceptor after the battle answered some questions about its maneuverability - in addition to overcharged inertial dampers, the crew were also in crash couches. This neatly explained their ability to withstand the high-gravity maneuvers that the interceptor demonstrated during combat, and the stress microfractures in the spaceframe put a distinct limit on how many times the ship would have been able to repeat the tricks. This prediction was borne out in the Battle of Shasht, when a Kzinti interceptor of the same type ruptured its spaceframe while carrying out a similar high-energy turn.
The preference for close-combat and the Kzinti resistance to heavy stun resulted in a fleet-wide directive for the use of phasers set to kill, which no doubt saved lives but unfortunately resulted in a high lethality rate for Kzinti combatants even when Starfleet had an overwhelming advantage.
In the coming weeks there were a series of engagements over protected colony worlds involving the Kilimanjaro and Aoraki, but by late September the rapid-response phase of the War was over as Starfleet filtered into the area and began to form task groups intended for a counter-push, setting up supply stations and defensive platforms to secure the local colonies.
Battle of New Providence After Action Report
Postscript, Vice-Admiral Tucker
I know the Selachii didn't perform as well as we'd hoped on this one, but that's no slight on the girls and boys who built her. Truth is we had no idea the Kzinti were as damn crazy as they are, and they're clearly crazy enough not to listen to whatever engineers they've got running things over there to do half the crap they did in that fight. That said I've had a chat with the folks over at Utopia Planitia who are gonna be building the rest of these ships and they've got some strong words for the people who are actually going to be flying the Selachii specifically and the fleet generally. I know engineers have a reputation for being worrywarts, but if I've got five screaming shipbuilders in one ear and a tactician in the other I know who I'm listening to, and it ain't the tactician. No offense to any of you fine fellows.
First off, that trick the Tiger did with her last torpedo volley, launching at point-blank range? Don't do that. Particle spalling from detonations that close really chews up the hull plating. Now I know your books say ten kilometers is the minimum so the guidance systems have the best chance to kick in and put your warheads on target, but I know full well you have to launch closer sometimes and just trust your pilot. But we put our foot down at two kilometers. You try that trick any closer with your shields down or even having trouble and you might be walking home without a working deflector. You're not using photonics anymore. Treat them with respect.
Second, don't try to copy the damn Kzinti. If they're stupid enough to practically rip their ships in half to get a second shot in at you, you're just going to have to take your lumps. The answer isn't to try and do it back. I'd put good-old Starfleet quality over whatever lunacy they're making over at Kzinhome, but your spaceframe is designed to fly a specific way. It doesn't include spinning like a frisbee. Your maneuvering thrusters are tuned to do the maximum your inertial dampers can handle. Tactical has some advice on mitigation, mainly regarding spacing and how you execute your turns, and I'll leave the details of that to the experts.
Third, personal congratulations to the crew of the Tiger and Hammerhead for some damn-fine formation flying. You're half the reason that the Selachii are being paired up together for combat work, and the other half is that we can't afford to put them in squadrons of three: that's how impressed we all were. Way the winds are blowing down in San Francisco you'll be getting a dozen extra sisters soon.
(Credit for comic goes to: https://twitter.com/boople__art/status/1393400814765428737)
10/10 Team, Good Job!
- Location
- Seattle, Washington
I don't think the runabouts actually did much. The three runabouts left after the interceptor was destroyed apparently didn't do more than superficial damage to the Hammerhead despite the Hammerhead's shields being down
We see that tactic once on Voyager, but it's otherwise not standard. One imagines if transporting hazardous material is a delicate task, then transporting antimatter is downright dangerous unless you're doing it under extremely controlled conditions. I don't think the technology even exists for point-to-point transport at this point, so you'd have to have the weapon on the pad and ready to go, and I'm not sure how long you want bottled antimatter sitting in something small and lightly-engineered enough to go on there.
As for why the Kzinti wouldn't do it, because Kzinti. Doing something that straightforward or frankly even easy way really isn't part of their objective. In fact, the more the odds are against them the better.
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- Location
- Germany
Yknow what would be funny to make.
A luxury tourist ship where we try to make the most attractive money maker.
Just imagining the engineers having to figure out how to fuse several alien culture designs to honeytrap as many of them as possible for the Cruise Cruiser
A luxury tourist ship where we try to make the most attractive money maker.
Just imagining the engineers having to figure out how to fuse several alien culture designs to honeytrap as many of them as possible for the Cruise Cruiser
StriderInCosmos
Wanderer in the Worldsea
- Location
- Somewhere in... Terminal Dogma? I think?
We are also on the cusp of a minor war. Maybe not Romulan War-level, but I'm sure that there are projects that are taking a back seat to wait the war out.
To be fair, even in the final episode Trip's death is kind of sus. It's not at all a surprise that essentially all of beta canon assumes it was a con pulled for Intelligence reasons. I tried to capture his voice in the postscript without going full ya'll.
I consider it more likely that we're going to be asked to replace the Cygnus-class - tactically, it's rather badly dated by this point in time, strategically its warp system is now outdated and able to be outperformed by the Soyuz class (a design too small and compact to benefit from warp field optimization) in every category, and even in terms of utility updates probably wouldn't hurt considering it's a design from more than 20 years ago in universe.
- Location
- California
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I refuse to believe any intelligence was involved in that finale.
I refuse to believe any intelligence was involved in that finale.
I dunno, I think the sound design and soundtrack people had p-
*runs*
Personally i think the idea of having a current gen battleship design always ready to go makes a lot of sense. We got lucky that the Romulans gave us the time we needed to design and build an entire class of Dreadnoughts from scratch because of their slow as hell (even for the time) mass production BoPs severely limiting their logistical range. As Warp Speeds increase with technology, wars will be over faster because our hypothetical enemies can reach the Federations heartlands more easily and our strategic depth decreases. We can't count on us being able to pull a Thunderchild in time for future wars. Therefore i believe it would be better to have a Dreadnought and not need one, than to need one and not have it.
The Kzinti forces attacking the colony she was stationed over had a grave misfortune of being primarily made up of lightweight personal warp craft that slipped that far into the rear of the battlespace precisely because they thought they couldn't make enough of a contribution to the push with what they had, and were glory-hunting for somewhere a bit more isolated and undefended. It turns out that minimal defenses rather than anything substantial are the worst possible match up against an antiquated battleship bristling with the phaser equivalent of the 20mm machine gun on every available surface.
- Location
- America
The Federation is a moneyless society so Starfleet has zero incentive to make designs that are profitable, useful yes, profitable no. I don't even know how we would even factor in profit. It straight doesn't exist.
That said, I wouldn't be adverse to a civilian luxury liner as side project in between projects.
In this case though, a Ford Ranger in starship form would likely be a good idea. The