Starfleet Design Bureau

The Miranda is more than fine serving as a frontier survey ship.

This. It has slightly more HP, It's two tiers faster, has almost double the phaser damage, and has aft torpedoes over the Kea. It's actually almost as fast as a D7 sublight with way more HP, if it can't pull off at least a 50/50 (pyrrhic on both sides at the very least) win rate against a D7 I would be surprised.

Which, coming from 2240 means we've gone from being absolutely slaughtered by D7s with everything but explorers to being able to stand our ground with the standard cruiser in 15 years. It's amazing progress.

Starfleet needs 100 of them. Then it needs 10 Federations to remind the Klingon that R&D shouldn't be outsourced and our phasers can almost out damage an Excailber now.
 
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How would the Miranda here match up with our Excalibur?
The Miranda is larger so it takes advantage of the phaser and shield scaling, but the Excalibur has more torps and would be more maneuverable.
Anyways - im not really sure
 
This. It has slightly more HP, It's two tiers faster, has almost double the phaser damage, and has aft torpedoes over the Kea. It's actually almost as fast as a D7 sublight with way more HP, if it can't pull off at least a 50/50 (pyrrhic on both sides at the very least) win rate against a D7 I would be surprised.

Which, coming from 2240 means we've gone from being absolutely slaughtered by D7s with everything but explorers to being able to stand our ground with the standard cruiser in 15 years. It's amazing progress.
The Miranda is also a really good defensive ship. It's common enough to be where it needs to be and it can stick it's back to a constellation of defensive satellites and point it's guns at the enemy.
 
The Miranda is also a really good defensive ship. It's common enough to be where it needs to be and it can stick it's back to a constellation of defensive satellites and point it's guns at the enemy.
only problem with it being a defensive ship is that It doesn't have the speed to get places leading to a less flexible defense - but that should be fixed
 
Yeah, and the Saladin gets absolute destroyed by the D6 too, so what's your point?

You say that it's a closer fight, but on closer inspection that's obviously untrue. The Saladin has 180kt maneuverability against the D6 with 60kt, so it's stuck using multi-target damage, which is four. 4.

FOUR.

The Saladin stands absolutely no chance against a ship that's roughly on par with a Sagarmatha, and it still worked perfectly fine as a frontier surveyor until the next generation of starships rendered it tactically obsolete.


And this is just rewriting history. The Saladin was considered perfectly acceptable at the time, and in fact was favored by Starfleet Tactical because their other option was a heavy cruiser that couldn't fight anything bigger than a frigate. The next set of designs had the same issue, where there was again no high end tactical cruiser available. It wasn't until Starfleet told both design bureaus to design a real heavy tactical cruiser that they got one.
Looks like we are in agreement that the Miranda also get's curbstomped by a K'tinga since you also acknowledge that the Saladin vs D6 isn't a good fight for the Saladin.

Using your own argument, the Miranda at 134kt standard thrust will have the exact same situation as the Saladin where it's reliant on it's multi-target damage to hit a K'tinga since the K'tinga is expected to match an Excalibur maneuverability wise (90kt standard) judging by all it's fixed weapons.

At 50 shields it would take a Miranda quite a few shots to bring those shields down which gives the K'tinga plenty of time to obliterate it since the Miranda is only slightly tankier than the ship the K'tinga is expected to beat in a fight.

The difference however between when the Saladin was judged acceptable back then (+30 years ago) and now is that back when the Saladin was in service the Klingon empire was viewed as a disunited mess and Starfleet didn't expect to need to fight more than a single house or two's worth of ships.
To be fair to Starfleet Intelligence, Klingon Great House politics have been a complete shitshow with lots of weak Chancellors who couldn't recentralise since the last Imperial Dynasty failed in the 2100s. This also had the happy side effect of being self-perpetuating, because the perpetual warfare kept the Empire focused inwards and fighting each other most of the time without a Chancellor strong enough to rein them in. Then weak Chancellors weren't respected or were deposed, repeat ad infinitum. For the vast majority of their spacefaring history the Klingons have been a Great Power in the region happy to throw down with big military expeditions into their neighbours, with the lack of organisation up until the Federation/Klingon Wars being pretty atypical. It's a bit like how for most of human history China has usually been the most populated and organised state on the planet, but was very much marginalised for a couple of centuries.

Karhammur is the start of the process that turns the Chancellor from First Among Equals who is nominally in charge to "actually, I am in charge" of the TMP/TNG era.
Considering the fact that Starfleet has just had to face a united Klingon Empire and barely survived, that assumption has been tossed out the window.

Edit:
I still stand by my argument that the Saladin does a bit better vs a D6 than a Miranda vs a K'tinga but that strays away from the main point which was that I don't consider the Miranda in it's current configuration a good ship if we're expecting Round 2 with the K'tinga B'rel in place of D7s and BoP's.

As mentioned earlier, the Saladin has stronger shields than a D6 whereas we know that the Miranda has worse shields than a K'tinga.

Considering the fact that the D7 being able to shred a D6 was notable that means that the D6 probably isn't going to be nuking itself in a fight.
Then in 2232 construction began on the D7 battlecruiser, a ship that combined Romulan experience with their heavyweight warbirds and more advanced Klingon weapon and power-generation technology. The result was a vessel that combined a powerful plasma torpedo system with a pair of wing-mounted disruptors that were able to carve through the existing D6 and Birds-of-Prey used by Duras' opposition.
That means that a Saladin will actually have a chance to actually shoot back against a D6 since it has stronger shields whereas even if we assume the K'tinga has only comparable firepower to the now +10 year old Excalibur that it's supposed to counter it should be able to nuke a Miranda in one pass based on the Excalibur's own numbers.
 
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"Speed to get places" is Max Cruise, if it's an emergency, Efficient Cruise otherwise.
yeah - it can still only go warp 7 when the rest of the fleet is starting to do warp 8 cruise - I figure that means repositioning would be harder, so less flexible defense?

you'd probably have to do some extra time on target calculations so the whole fleet arrives at the same time, which could also slow down the other ships
 
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yeah - it can still only go warp 7 when the rest of the fleet is starting to do warp 8 cruise - I figure that means repositioning would be harder, so less flexible defense?
Nobody's going at Warp 8 Cruise at the moment, everyone except Fat Freddy is still hard capped at Warp 7 Maximum Cruise. That could well change with nacelle refits, of course, but in that case the Miranda is getting faster cruising speeds at the exact same time as the rest of the fleet, not later.
 
yeah - it can still only go warp 7 when the rest of the fleet is starting to do warp 8 cruise - I figure that means repositioning would be harder, so less flexible defense?
...the rest of the fleet is still capped out at Warp 7 for Max Cruise. We only got 7.4 on the Federation because we slapped on an extra pair of nacelles.
 
yeah, I was definitely wrong - probably too much into sprint and then confusing that or something
but still it might have to wait for the next warp core to reach warp 8+ instead of with the nacelles and with new ships coming out it ends up being probably too slow

so for some period of time before the next warp core comes out it may end up being slower than the main fleet which could be a problem for such a prolific ship
 
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Using your own argument, the Miranda at 134kt standard thrust will have the exact same situation as the Saladin where it's reliant on it's multi-target damage to hit a K'tinga since the K'tinga is expected to match an Excalibur maneuverability wise (90kt standard) judging by all it's fixed weapons.
The Saladin straight up does not have multi target damage, it literally cannot fight any Klingon ship on its own. It's seriously questionable if the Saladin would even beat a BoP 1v1.

The difference however between when the Saladin was judged acceptable back then (+30 years ago) and now is that back when the Saladin was in service the Klingon empire was viewed as a disunited mess and Starfleet didn't expect to need to fight more than a single house or two's worth of ships.
This is irrelevant when the Saladin can beat optimistically something like half a Klingon ship on its own.

The Miranda is objectively a very capable starship, and in combat the only ship that can safely expect to win is a K'Tinga. It is more than capable enough to see service on the frontier for the next half century or so.
 
@Sayle did you see this idea I had about how the ships cost stat could be easily done without having to go into economics, GDP, ect...

That's already how the letter ratings are determined, but I don't plot out all the options beforehand so I can't do that beforehand.

@Sayle can't recall if we've talked about this before or not, but will we ever get the chance to put in some 'megaphasers' to our designs? Between the Soyuz and the Constellation there's enough evidence for them actually being real, if not quire named as such.

The Soyuz gun-looking things are apparently sensor pods and antenna, not weapons. As for the Constellation...I'm not aware of any major weapon systems there? If anything those were undergunned. But in regards to interesting weapon spins, I'm thinking that's probably reserved for smaller frigate-sized ships.
 
Miranda has undersized deflectors. New nacelles might not help max speed because of this.

I just want to know if the Federation will get 4 brand new nacelles and go even further beyond the new max cruise speed.
 
Also - isn't the main problem with speed currently that the warp core is too powerful for the Nacelles - with the Miranda having a minimal one, the Nacelle refit may effect it less

anyways its definitely possible that the other ships which get the refit get more out of it than the Miranda which would leave it behind
 
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The Saladin straight up does not have multi target damage, it literally cannot fight any Klingon ship on its own. It's seriously questionable if the Saladin would even beat a BoP 1v1.


This is irrelevant when the Saladin can beat optimistically something like half a Klingon ship on its own.

The Miranda is objectively a very capable starship, and in combat the only ship that can safely expect to win is a K'Tinga. It is more than capable enough to see service on the frontier for the next half century or so.
By your logic the 190kt Standard Maneuverability Canon Constitution wouldn't be able to beat a D7 or BoP given the fact that it only has 18% coverage and a Multi-target rating of 2.

Considering the fact that that is not the case that means that even with a maneuverability penalty and low coverage a ship like the Saladin can still get it's weapons lined up to deal a reasonable amount of damage against more agile targets.

Also just going to repeat the thing I mentioned in my edit regarding Saladin vs D6:

As mentioned earlier, the Saladin has stronger shields than a D6 whereas we know that the Miranda has worse shields than a K'tinga.

Considering the fact that the D7 being able to shred a D6 was notable that means that the D6 isn't going to be nuking itself in a fight.
Then in 2232 construction began on the D7 battlecruiser, a ship that combined Romulan experience with their heavyweight warbirds and more advanced Klingon weapon and power-generation technology. The result was a vessel that combined a powerful plasma torpedo system with a pair of wing-mounted disruptors that were able to carve through the existing D6 and Birds-of-Prey used by Duras' opposition.
That means that a Saladin will actually have a chance to actually shoot back against a D6 since it should have shields strong enough to weather a D6's initial assault whereas even if we assume the K'tinga has only comparable firepower to the now +10 year old Excalibur that it's supposed to counter it should be able to nuke a Miranda in one pass based on the Excalibur's own numbers.
 
By your logic the 190kt Standard Maneuverability Canon Constitution wouldn't be able to beat a D7 or BoP given the fact that it only has 18% coverage and a Multi-target rating of 2.

Considering the fact that that is not the case that means that even with a maneuverability penalty and low coverage a ship like the Saladin can still get it's weapons lined up to deal a reasonable amount of damage against more agile targets.
The Sagarmatha with a multi-target rating of 13 and a shield rating of 42 was close to but generally inferior than a D6 with a shield rating of 20. The Saladin has a shield rating of 27 to the BoP's 12, but a multi-target of 4.

Of course the BoP isn't nearly as heavily armed as a D6, but just going off the numbers it's very questionable if the Saladin can actually defeat a BoP here.

And when compared with the Constitution vs a D7, the BoP is six times as maneuverable as a Saladin whereas the D7 is "only" three times as maneuverable as the Connie, so it's even less favorable for the Saladin.

That means that a Saladin will actually have a chance to actually shoot back against a D6 since it should have shields strong enough to weather a D6's initial assault whereas even if we assume the K'tinga has only comparable firepower to the now +10 year old Excalibur that it's supposed to counter it should be able to nuke a Miranda in one pass based on the Excalibur's own numbers.
The Sagarmatha was the most individually capable ship we had built prior to the Excalibur, and it could only expect to win against a D6 if it began from ambush. The Saladin stands absolutely no chance.

And the Miranda is relatively speaking, a much more capable ship than the Saladin, so again, it'll be perfectly fine as a frontier surveyor.
 
It is closer to engine oil. It's not the actual power source, but if you try to run an engine without it you stop having an engine.

Warp cores run off antimatter. Antimatter is made at fusion powered production stations that orbit gas giants harvesting basically unlimited amounts of hydrogen to power themselves.

Lots of power + any mass feedstock = antimatter.

So starship fuel is actually pretty renewable. The universe is a LONG way from running out of hydrogen. It's just so dangerous you don't put anything near where you make and store it, but actually making it isn't hard.

It's the Dilithium that's actually limited. If you run out you basically get stuck trying to to run ships using fusion and that sucks.
Technically the federation uses deuterium/anti-deuterium for its antimatter reactors to prevent excess radiation. And the busard collectors on the nacelles are set to gather deuterium in flight through star systems and nebulae. And by tng have the ability to create enough antimatter at efficient warp to be self sufficient on fuel
 
The Sagarmatha with a multi-target rating of 13 and a shield rating of 42 was close to but generally inferior than a D6 with a shield rating of 20. The Saladin has a shield rating of 27 to the BoP's 12, but a multi-target of 4.

Of course the BoP isn't nearly as heavily armed as a D6, but just going off the numbers it's very questionable if the Saladin can actually defeat a BoP here.

And when compared with the Constitution vs a D7, the BoP is six times as maneuverable as a Saladin whereas the D7 is "only" three times as maneuverable as the Connie, so it's even less favorable for the Saladin.


The Sagarmatha was the most individually capable ship we had built prior to the Excalibur, and it could only expect to win against a D6 if it began from ambush. The Saladin stands absolutely no chance.

And the Miranda is relatively speaking, a much more capable ship than the Saladin, so again, it'll be perfectly fine as a frontier surveyor.
I don't get where you are getting this idea that I am arguing that the Saladin stands a chance against a D6.

My point is to highlight how bad the Miranda Vs K'tinga matchup is by highlighting how to even the Saladin Vs D6 matchup which is pretty rough is still an improvement over the Miranda Vs K'tinga matchup.
 
They kinda do, the refit Galaxy can go to warp 13!


Good to know! I'm guessing you're of the opinion that the transwarp the Excelsior's captain talked of is just what we consider the TNG warp scale? Or is it a case of an actual transwarp (as we understand it today) experiment that would always fail but the data generated from it being enough to cause a massive refinement to warp field dynamics understanding.

Per Encounter at Farpoint it could go a bit faster, perhaps 9.6 going by how there's no attempt to go faster after Q's ball accelerates to 9.7+*, though at 10.2 it'll still be 544c faster than the canon 9.4.

*and, iirc the tech manual gives 9.6 as being sustainable for 12 hours.

I was actually curious enough to go looking for the reason why the scale was changed and they did come up with a decent in-universe explaination:

"By 2300 many were becoming increasingly dissatisfied with the Cochrane Scale. Although convenient for those using the warp formula, it was of limited use to Engineers and specialists since it took relatively little account of the interstellar conditions at the moment. Thus it took a great deal more engine power to achieve a speed of Warp 5 while within a gravimetric distortion than it did while in relatively "calm" interstellar space. Engineering departments lobbied for years to bring in a new scale, but the bridge crews resisted and Starfleet Headquarters - primarily composed of ex-bridge officers - concurred.
The loss of the USS Wilmington with all hands during an Ion storm in 2309 changed this attitude. It emerged during the inquiry that Captain Lamarr had seriously over stressed the Wilmingtons engines by ordering Warp 7 while within the storm; although the Wilmington was quite capable of maintaining this speed under normal conditions, during an Ion storm it was far too great a load. Although other factors contributed greatly, such as a serious breakdown in communications on the ship, Starfleet was unwilling to chance such a situation again."

"The Terrance-Neltorr Graduated Scale was first suggested in 2298 by two civilian warp field specialists of those names. On the TNG Scale the warp factor is indicative of the subspace stress levels which the vessel must both create and endure, rather than the actual velocity of the vessel itself. The actual speed denoted by any given warp factor would depend upon the precise conditions prevalent at the time. So a Captain using the TNG scale would be able to order Warp 7 while in space, a solar system, or an Ion storm and be assured that he would not be over stressing his engines. The new scale was also tweaked to accommodate a number of technical advances made over the last century and in development at the time. Starfleet conducted a quick assessment of several possible new warp scales between 2310 and 2311 before formally adopting the TNG scale, with the changeover made in 2312."

"For ideal conditions, such as are found in interstellar space, the speeds of TNG warp factors are calculated using either of two formulae:
Up to Warp 9: V/c = WF(10/3)​
Which is very similar to the Cochrane Scale. Beyond Warp 9 the formula becomes somewhat more complex. It is best approximated by :
V/c = WF[<(10/3)+a*(-Ln(10-WF))^n>+f1*((WF-9)^5)+f2*((WF-9)^11)]​
Where a is the subspace field density, n is the electromagnetic flux, and f1 and f2 are the Cochrane refraction and reflection indexes respectively. Under ideal conditions values of a = 0.00264320, n = 2.87926700, f1 = 0.06274120 and f2 = 0.32574600 can be expected within a "normal" area of deep interstellar space."

Ok, even for Trekkie nerds, this is an extreme level of in-universe backstory .
 
I don't get where you are getting this idea that I am arguing that the Saladin stands a chance against a D6.

My point is to highlight how bad the Miranda Vs K'tinga matchup is by highlighting how to even the Saladin Vs D6 matchup which is pretty rough is still an improvement over the Miranda Vs K'tinga matchup.
If the K'Tinga nukes a Miranda which is about 2/3 as durable as a Federation, then in fact we have already lost the next war because I guess the Klingons weren't really trying with the D7.
 
I was actually curious enough to go looking for the reason why the scale was changed and they did come up with a decent in-universe explaination:
*snip explanation*
That is just the level of nerdery I love. It's perfect, I'll take it.

It also, quite conveniently, makes 'speed of plot' somewhat canon since your actual speed in multiples of the speed of light will vary constantly. Saying 'Warp Nine' is just how hard you're putting on the gas.

It ALSO adds the wrinkle that the intensity of the subspace field you're making is what wound up stressing subspace on common warp paths in late tng, rather than the speed strictly speaking. Which is why a fix for this was relatively easy, since the shape of that warp field and how much it 'cleaned up after itself' could be changed.
 
That is just the level of nerdery I love. It's perfect, I'll take it.

It also, quite conveniently, makes 'speed of plot' somewhat canon since your actual speed in multiples of the speed of light will vary constantly. Saying 'Warp Nine' is just how hard you're putting on the gas.

It ALSO adds the wrinkle that the intensity of the subspace field you're making is what wound up stressing subspace on common warp paths in late tng, rather than the speed strictly speaking. Which is why a fix for this was relatively easy, since the shape of that warp field and how much it 'cleaned up after itself' could be changed.
I also find it funny that they came up with an in universe reason to call it the TNG scale.
 
It occurs to me that the big group we're hoping the Federation will be fighting isn't the Klingons. It's going to be Pirates in general and Orions in specific.

Pirates in general means smaller ships, larger groups of them if they get themselves organized. Orions though are weird, since it means refurbished powerful ships they don't really know how to make themselves. The notable thing they've got going for them in TOS is speed though, their maneuver was crazy compared to a Constitution and they were making repeated warp speed flybys to make attacks without effective response.

It's the Orion threat, in specific, that's selling me on not toning down the torpedoes. We need a can opener to crack fast nasty ancient ships we can't outrun.

[X] Two Forward, One Aft (Mark IV) [24/72 Damage]/[12/36 Damage] [Cost: 164]
 
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